[QUOTE=IceWarrior98;45397633]You know how easy it is to put black kids into books?
Change one word.
PROFIT[/QUOTE]
Except kids books have pictures in them. Text only ones don't mention race from my experience. But as I said, most of them are pictures. In black and white ones black people cost more to print.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;45398680] In black and white ones black people cost more to print.[/QUOTE]
you can't be serious
[QUOTE=CrumbleShake;45396514]Um...
"Race mixing" is good.
Or were you joking?[/QUOTE]
this doesnt even make sense tbh
""race mixing" is good"
what do you mean by good? is there something inherently good about people from different races having children?
it's nots bad, but i cant see why it would be good either
Looking back at the children's books I remember, I don't recall there ever being a non-white character. I can imagine this being discouraging to non-white kids if it's actually the case.
They've already shown that when presented with two dolls, one black and one white, and asked to pick which doll is more "beautiful", even black kids will generally pick the white one. Not providing representation to minority children has to be terrible for their self-esteem, and I can't help but wonder if it isn't contributing to the societal problems minorities face that so many racists simply blame on the fact they're minorities. We know that bullying can mess people up for the rest of their life, and institutional exclusion is just another form of bullying.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;45398710]you can't be serious[/QUOTE]
I'm not.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;45398660]nobody is being "forced" to do anything.
why can't people read this article, be all like "Ok. Good suggestion. I, an adult, haven't read enough children's books to be aware of a problem but I agree, on principal, that children's books should represent everybody" and then move on with their lives? [B]why do you people have to take offense at the mildest statements imaginable?[/B][/QUOTE]
I totally agree with you, but that last sentence is hilarious coming from you.
I read books about Alien Abductions and Conspiracy theories as a kid, so I have a different set of issues I guess.
There ain't enough aliens, we're speciest.
[QUOTE=Mabus;45398742]I totally agree with you, but that last sentence is hilarious coming from you.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure he did it on purpose to highlight the hypocrisy of the people he was arguing with
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;45398728]this doesnt even make sense tbh
""race mixing" is good"
what do you mean by good? is there something inherently good about people from different races having children?
it's nots bad, but i cant see why it would be good either[/QUOTE]
It's about genetic diversity which is a good thing. Race mixing keeps gene pools more diverse which genetically speaking is good for survival
[QUOTE=Zeke129;45398749]I'm pretty sure he did it on purpose to highlight the hypocrisy of the people he was arguing with[/QUOTE]
If he's calling himself out in the process, I'll take it seriously.
[QUOTE=Swilly;45398763]If he's calling himself out in the process, I'll take it seriously.[/QUOTE]
From my point of view there's nothing wrong with expressing offense, but people need to realize that expressing offense over the suggestion that there be more non-white childrens book characters is not equally valid to expressing offense at the lack of non-white childrens book characters. (Or race mixing, or any number of other arguments where the best answer is not necessarily the most moderate one)
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45398761]It's about genetic diversity which is a good thing. Race mixing keeps gene pools more diverse which genetically speaking is good for survival[/QUOTE]
this isn't always the case
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outbreeding_depression[/URL]
the thing is that this "genetic diversity" isn't really a problem
unless you are breeding really really closely (like say iceland for example)
[QUOTE=Zeke129;45398785]From my point of view there's nothing wrong with expressing offense, but people need to realize that expressing offense over the suggestion that there be more non-white childrens book characters is not equally valid to expressing offense at the lack of non-white childrens book characters. (Or race mixing, or any number of other arguments where the best answer is not necessarily the most moderate one)[/QUOTE]
He's right about that point, there needs to be diversification but I'd rather it be the writers become more diversified, not the characters.
I think one of the toughest things to write about is someone outside of your perview and while it can be fun the fear of coming as racist, sexist or something similar by accident is very easy to pull off. A lot of people say 'well just write the character normally and change the skin color or gender'. The issue is that, especially with adult characters, those traits in this day and age(If you're doing a modern set era, lets not go into medieval or something like) is still laden with [B]tons[/B] of challenges that specific race and or gender(Or identity) comes with.
A white character will not have the same life experiences as the a black character, it just seems shallow to me to not acknowledge the issues that a black man would face versus a white man. Or a woman versus a man. You can't just sweep race under the rug like that, its still a very vitriolic and divisive issue.
I can see why a lot of writers avoid it. Especially when you mess up because of not doing proper research or doing the wrong research. Then you get yelled at and harrased beyond just the news but emails, phone calls, you name it. Its a billion times worse for non-white male writers but its still pretty bad to fuck up.
I don't think the genetic diversity argument holds much weight for either side, considering there is very little biological standing for our notion of race in the first place. The groups we delineate by skin colour or geography aren't really an accurate representation of actual genetic differences present in humans. Two people we'd consider to be both white could be more different than a white and a black person.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;45398869]I don't think the genetic diversity argument holds much weight for either side, considering there is very little biological standing for our notion of race in the first place. The groups we delineate by skin colour or geography aren't really an accurate representation of actual genetic differences present in humans. Two people we'd consider to be both white could be more different than a white and a black person.[/QUOTE]
Genetics are actually more important than race.
Which is funny because 1st cousins are actually more likely to give healthy offspring then two random people.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;45398869]considering there is very little biological standing for our notion of race in the first place.[/QUOTE]
so what parts of biology support it?
[QUOTE=Swilly;45398864]He's right about that point, there needs to be diversification but I'd rather it be the writers become more diversified, not the characters.
I think one of the toughest things to write about is someone outside of your perview and while it can be fun the fear of coming as racist, sexist or something similar by accident is very easy to pull off. A lot of people say 'well just write the character normally and change the skin color or gender'. The issue is that, especially with adult characters, those traits in this day and age(If you're doing a modern set era, lets not go into medieval or something like) is still laden with [B]tons[/B] of challenges that specific race and or gender(Or identity) comes with.
A white character will not have the same life experiences as the a black character, it just seems shallow to me to not acknowledge the issues that a black man would face versus a white man. Or a woman versus a man. You can't just sweep race under the rug like that, its still a very vitriolic and divisive issue.
I can see why a lot of writers avoid it. Especially when you mess up because of not doing proper research or doing the wrong research. Then you get yelled at and harrased beyond just the news but emails, phone calls, you name it. Its a billion times worse for non-white male writers but its still pretty bad to fuck up.[/QUOTE]
But children's book usually don't touch on topics of racism, sexism, etc, so I'm not sure the argument applies.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;45398736]Looking back at the children's books I remember, I don't recall there ever being a non-white character. I can imagine this being discouraging to non-white kids if it's actually the case.
They've already shown that when presented with two dolls, one black and one white, and asked to pick which doll is more "beautiful", even black kids will generally pick the white one. Not providing representation to minority children has to be terrible for their self-esteem, and I can't help but wonder if it isn't contributing to the societal problems minorities face that so many racists simply blame on the fact they're minorities. We know that bullying can mess people up for the rest of their life, and institutional exclusion is just another form of bullying.[/QUOTE]
It will only hurt your self-esteem if you see color as being an important aspect to who a character is.
If you look at all people based on their character, then whether a person in a book is white or black becomes irrelevant. You instead judge the person on how they act. The kid can then take these traits and apply them to their lives. Their self-esteem will be based on how different they are in character from the people in the book, not based on how different their skin color is. So if a person in a book does the right thing a lot it may convict a child about the wrong that they do, therefore temporarily hurting their self-esteem.
For example: Let us say that I, a white person, moved to Japan and had white children there. My kids will live their entire young lives in Japan. Would you expect them to have low self-esteem because of their lack of exposure to other white people in most of the media? I know I wouldn't because I would teach them that skin color doesn't matter and that anyone who thinks it does matter is a bigot who deserves to be ignored.
When you teach a kid that their skin color is a fundamental part of who they are as a person (like our society currently does), then of course kids will feel bad when their skin color doesn't seem as important as other people's skin color.
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;45398810]this isn't always the case
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outbreeding_depression[/URL]
the thing is that this "genetic diversity" isn't really a problem
unless you are breeding really really closely (like say iceland for example)[/QUOTE]
that's more an example that there is a middleground like balance
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;45398906]so what parts of biology support it?[/QUOTE]
Its more about genetics, for instance, most adults in the world cannot metabolize milk's nutrients after a certain age. Europeans can however digest and metabolize those nutrients and fatty acids, just not as well as a child.
[editline]15th July 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tacosheller;45398909]But children's book usually don't touch on topics of racism, sexism, etc, so I'm not sure the argument applies.[/QUOTE]
I kind of ranted, sorry about that.
[editline]15th July 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=sgman91;45398910]It will only hurt your self-esteem if you see color as being an important aspect to who a character is.
If you look at all people based on their character, then whether a person in a book is white or black becomes irrelevant. You instead judge the person on how they act. The kid can then take these traits and apply them to their lives. Their self-esteem will be based on how different they are in character from the people in the book, not based on how different their skin color is. So if a person in a book does the right thing a lot it may convict a child about the wrong that they do, therefore temporarily hurting their self-esteem.
For example: Let us say that I, a white person, moved to Japan and had white children there. My kids will live their entire young lives in Japan. Would you expect them to have low self-esteem because of their lack of exposure to other white people in most of the media? I know I wouldn't because I would teach them that skin color doesn't matter and that anyone who thinks it does matter is a bigot who deserves to be ignored.
When you teach a kid that their skin color is a fundamental part of who they are as a person (like our society currently does), then of course kids will feel bad when their skin color doesn't seem as important as other people's skin color.[/QUOTE]
And we live in a society that still does that, so to ignore it is kinda silly.
[QUOTE=Swilly;45398920]And we live in a society that still does that, so to ignore it is kinda silly.[/QUOTE]
It isn't that society still does it, but that our education system actively teaches them to do it.
By teaching about historical people BECAUSE of their skin color instead of their achievements we are saying that their skin color was an important factor in who they were. So instead of saying: "Martin Luther King Jr. was an incredible man who stood up for the oppressed even at risk of his own safety, you kids (regardless of what race you are) should use him as an example in your own lives" we say: "Martin Luther king Jr. was a great black man who stood up for black people against white people. Black kids need to remember that they, as a skin color group, have important people in their past as well who they can emulate."
[QUOTE=sgman91;45398910]It will only hurt your self-esteem if you see color as being an important aspect to who a character is.
If you look at all people based on their character, then whether a person in a book is white or black becomes irrelevant. You instead judge the person on how they act. The kid can then take these traits and apply them to their lives. Their self-esteem will be based on how different they are in character from the people in the book, not based on how different their skin color is. So if a person in a book does the right thing a lot it may convict a child about the wrong that they do, therefore temporarily hurting their self-esteem.
For example: Let us say that I, a white person, moved to Japan and had white children there. My kids will live their entire young lives in Japan. Would you expect them to have low self-esteem because of their lack of exposure to other white people in most of the media? I know I wouldn't because I would teach them that skin color doesn't matter and that anyone who thinks it does matter is a bigot who deserves to be ignored.
When you teach a kid that their skin color is a fundamental part of who they are as a person (like our society currently does), then of course kids will feel bad when their skin color doesn't seem as important as other people's skin color.[/QUOTE]
If skin color was the only difference between ethnicities, I'd agree with you, but culture is also a large part. If children don't see their way of life, their culture, represented in media(or worse, see it bashed) depression is pretty likely.
[QUOTE=sgman91;45398997]It isn't that society still does it, but that our education system actively teaches them to do it.[/QUOTE]
I mean race still determine in large part your future, the culture you grow up around, the ideals and trials you'll go through as a child.
As a thought experiment, tell me how different Agent Fox Mulder would be if he was African American, instead of European American. Remember a lot of the show's history heavily involves his family's and is rooted in the 70's and 80's.
[QUOTE=Swilly;45399011]I mean race still determine in large part your future, the culture you grow up around, the ideals and trials you'll go through as a child.[/QUOTE]
That's true, but it still has nothing to do with what makes up a person as a character. A black person can go through trial A and act courageously, kindly, etc. or they can go through trial A and act cowardly, evilly, etc. The trial they go through and the experiences they have should be a backdrop to how they acted as a person, not a lens with which to look at their actions.
A white kid, just as much as a black kid, can admire the actions of black man who rose of out the ghetto with the world against him and the white kid, just as much as the black kid, can take those character traits and apply them to his life. In the same way a black kid can admire the actions of a white man from a completely different culture and situation if he acts with integrity and good character.
[QUOTE]As a thought experiment, tell me how different Agent Fox Mulder would be if he was African American, instead of European American. Remember a lot of the show's history heavily involves his family's and is rooted in the 70's and 80's.[/QUOTE]
No idea who that is, sorry, but if he's a good guy, them I sure those character traits would have shown up no matter what his history was.
Dun goof'd the quote there.
[editline]15th July 2014[/editline]
And I mean that the trials shape the individual. They are still their own person who can act as their own singular unit and nothing determine who they are but what they say and their actions.
But their mannerisms, they're thought processes are shaped from childhood into their early teens, late teens are when they fight and grapple with this process before solidifying their personality at their early adulthood years.
[QUOTE=Bradyns;45395302]Everybody should just read Grug.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/MErCCAl.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
That nose is too big, your discriminating against jews.
[QUOTE=Swilly;45399065]And I mean that the trials shape the individual. They are still their own person who can act as their own singular unit and nothing determine who they are but what they say and their actions.
But their mannerisms, they're thought processes are shaped from childhood into their early teens, late teens are when they fight and grapple with this process before solidifying their personality at their early adulthood years.[/QUOTE]
Mannerism still have nothing to do with the quality of a character. A black guy who speaks with an urban accent can be good or bad just like a white guy who speaks in a "proper" accent.
A black kid who speaks with an urban accent can learn equally from both if he doesn't see those traits as being important to who the character is. On the other hand, if he sees those traits as being foundational to who those characters are as a person, then they will be biased against people different from themselves.
[QUOTE=Levithan;45395965]snippet[/QUOTE]
Didn't the same happen to Mae Jemison?
I bet she hates Dr. Seuss books since the people in them are literally white.
[QUOTE=Amiga OS;45395105]As long as they don't end up as "diverse" as british Math & Science test questions.[/QUOTE]
And Shaneeka has 3.
Seriously, what is up with those names.
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