• Children's books are too white, says Laureate
    160 replies, posted
Now, I have no harsh feelings towards white people (or any race/ethnicity for that matter,) but I honestly will never understand Facepunch's inherit bigotry about anything. Does anyone remember that thread about how some Buffalo citizen (who was a white guy) was making racist remarks about how non-whites (minorities, in the US at least) should stay out of white neighborhoods because they'll only ruin them (i.e., lowering the property value, creating an increase in crime/poverty, etc), and most of the people in that thread were agreeing with him. I seriously found it ass backwards (and to a greater extent, [b]hypocritical[/b]) of many Facepunchers to think it was A-okay to be racist towards non-whites, while at the same time bitching and moaning about radical Muslims and their honor killings etc etc, always harping on and on about how "It's 2014, this stuff shouldn't be happening, blah blah blah, go back to the Medieval ages with your barbaric ideas, etc". To say "it's XXXX year, and this stuff is still happening!" while perpetuating similarly ass backwards and archaic ideals (i.e., being bigoted, racist fools) is hypocritical. Most of you will say this shit, only to come into a thread like this one (addressing the lack of non-white, or non-female characters of importance) and continue your bigotry by saying crap like "Oh, what's so wrong with it? If they wanna make their own non-white characters, why don't they?" You're only saying this because [i]you are so used to[/i] there only being non-white/female characters of importance for the majority of the time in books, games, films, etc. It's [u]not easy[/u] for newbie screenwriters, authors, and game makers to have their work picked up by bigger companies, and even harder for them to be acknowledged at all, especially if they're non-white people (and even moreso if they aren't male.) Now, you might respond to this and say "yeah, well look at all of these non-white/female employees in all of those industries or characters in those forms of media", well, how many of them are actually important to the story? How many of them are three-dimensional characters with their own conflicts, positive and negative traits, their own importance to the plot? How many of those characters are [u]more[/u] than just a lamebrain sidekick that dies two chapters in, or a stereotypical representation of the "exotic" non-white damsel in distress that's only in the plot as a reward for the hero after saving the world from the big bad guy? When it comes to a kids book, the character of a character doesn't matter because it'll be pretty simplistic (there should still be better representation of other culture/ethnicities.) To those of you saying it "isn't a problem" that the majority of western books/films/video games are white male macho men (or perceived as white, they look like it, something along those lines, etc) then why are they, most of the time, white men? Isn't that a problem that every other ethnic group is just peppered into the plot as taxi drivers, passersby, and store clerks? Isn't it a problem that other ethnic groups/races aren't getting better representation, or representation equal to that of the stereotypical "default" hero type? (White male, medium build/physique, brown hair/eyes, the "average joe" if you will. It is a problem, even if most of you don't see it, refuse to see it, or just plain disagree. If you're one to disagree with this, then that's obviously a sign of the problem we still have in the West when it comes to race relationships (in the US especially.) If you really don't think of it as a problem, think about all of the non-white kids growing up that absolutely lost their minds joyfully when they saw a non-white character similar to them in a role of importance? Let's look at Mae Carol Jemison, the first black woman in space. She is a huge Star Trek fan, and was so inspired by Nyota Uhura (Nichelle Nichols) on the original series that she aspired to become an astronaut. She even later co-starred side by side with her in one of the films (and had a role in the episode "Second Chances" on The Next Generation as well.)
Time to check my privilege!
[QUOTE=cqbcat;45395101]I think racial diversity should come organically and not because the author makes a conscientious choice about race.[/QUOTE] I never felt like seeing black people or other minorities in children's books gave me the feeling of diversity. I just looked at it and went "a kid." Then again, that's just me. IMO, parents should be much more responsible in teaching their kids about racial diversity as the important role models they are.
[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;45399276]I never felt like seeing black people or other minorities in children's books gave me the feeling of diversity. I just looked at it and went "a kid."[/QUOTE] You're not supposed to see the diversity, it should be the norm.
[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;45399255]And Shaneeka has 3. Seriously, what is up with those names.[/QUOTE] if you mean names similar to [I]Shaniqua[/I], they're usually transliterations of words like "beauty", "flower", etc from various languages present on the continent of Africa, usually swahili
If we want more diversity in books, we need more diversity in writing
[QUOTE=sgman91;45399089]Mannerism still have nothing to do with the quality of a character. A black guy who speaks with an urban accent can be good or bad just like a white guy who speaks in a "proper" accent. A black kid who speaks with an urban accent can learn equally from both if he doesn't see those traits as being important to who the character is. On the other hand, if he sees those traits as being foundational to who those characters are as a person, then they will be biased against people different from themselves.[/QUOTE] Which is what I'm aiming at, because those biases, those clashes and fighting against those stereotypes are the most fun.
open book ctrl+h "white" -> "black" ctrl+h "james" -> "tyrone" there are you happy now
[QUOTE=Swilly;45398898]Genetics are actually more important than race. Which is funny because 1st cousins are actually more likely to give healthy offspring then two random people.[/QUOTE] I agree with the genetics bit, but can you show some evidence for the 1st cousins things? Not accusing or anything, just curious.
What the shitty balls are you talking about, children's books are mostly anthro animals jesus christ
[QUOTE=c:;45395195]Honestly, who cares? I get that I'm a privileged white man and have been portrayed as the hero in everything ever and blah blah blah, but it's really dumb that people are forced to make their character as much of a minority as possible just to not receive criticism. To me, it's gotten to a point that it feels like... "Male character lead in a videogame? Devs are sexist pigs. Female character isn't black? Wow, how typically racist. Female character is black? She's still conformed to beauty stereotypes, so you're still a sexist pig. Female character is black and fat and unattractive? You disgusting person, you made them ugly on purpose. You must hate women and black people." I'm sorry for ranting, but I really just do not care. Promote acceptance without forcing it.[/QUOTE] People are just suggesting that racial diversity in literature is good idea that would be healthy for society. Nobody tries to force anything, stop being so insecure.
[QUOTE=Tomvdr;45399896]open book ctrl+h "white" -> "black" ctrl+h "james" -> "tyrone" there are you happy now[/QUOTE] I sure do like Ian Fleming's Tyrone Bond novels
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkpUyB2xgTM[/media] I don't know, I think that mixed representation in children's books seems like a good thing.
[QUOTE=TAU!;45399258]-long post about misrepresenation-[/QUOTE] honestly, as a vietnamese person i agree with this so much. in my life i grew up in such shitty conditions and dealt with such shitty factors in my life like abusive family, no mother, ghetto neighborhood in a state full of conservative whites and ofc my development being impacted as well. i feel like if i just found a few role models in my life that were the same as me that i could relate too, that have faced the same persecutions as i did growing up then i wouldve turned out better i used to wish i was white so i wouldnt receive the shit i got as a kid
-snip, should've read before posting-
[QUOTE=Fetret;45400634]I agree with the genetics bit, but can you show some evidence for the 1st cousins things? Not accusing or anything, just curious.[/QUOTE] Lemme find the source I got from that. It originated from Cracked, I'll need to find the original.
What the fuck is with the people arguing against race mixing in this thread, I didn't think that kind of people existed anymore
[QUOTE=Levithan;45395965]I knew right then and there I could be anything I wanted to be.[/QUOTE] Anything she wanted to be. Up to an including a serially incompetent communications officer.
[QUOTE=Eric95;45403078]What the fuck is with the people arguing against race mixing in this thread, I didn't think that kind of people existed anymore[/QUOTE] Sometimes I wonder if people are purposely dropping absolutely horrible archaic racism into arguments just to "soften" the arguments that are borderline racist and make them seem reasonable by comparison
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45398761]It's about genetic diversity which is a good thing. Race mixing keeps gene pools more diverse which genetically speaking is good for survival[/QUOTE] Been lurking here for a while and seen this argument posted a lot in past topics about race. If this were the 19th century or earlier, and if modern medicine didn't exist, thus making survival a relevant concern, you might have a point about how it would be necessary and good to mix more genetically diverse groups with each other. But that's not the case of course. And we don't have any problems with genetic diversity already as it is. A tiny number of small countries do, like Conor mentioned. There's really no desperate need for mixing to happen or any justification for it beyond "Hey I love this person".
[QUOTE=sgman91;45398910] For example: Let us say that I, a white person, moved to Japan and had white children there. My kids will live their entire young lives in Japan. Would you expect them to have low self-esteem because of their lack of exposure to other white people in most of the media?[/QUOTE] If there were no white people in media, yes, I would expect that. Odds are they'll turn out more or less fine but growing up knowing that everyone around you thinks you're different isn't really a healthy mindset. We're social animals, we like to feel as though we belong. Feeling like we aren't being represented hurts.
[IMG]http://www.ezra-jack-keats.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/snowyday.jpg[/IMG] She should get her head out of her ass. There's tons of racial diversity in kids' books.
[QUOTE=Eric95;45403078]What the fuck is with the people arguing against race mixing in this thread, I didn't think that kind of people existed anymore[/QUOTE] I do not think it is always beneficial for an individual to be bi or even tri racial. Mixed race people have few role models that represent their kind. Not only this, but sometimes mixed race people are not accepted by the races that they consist of. This can be very troubling for the individual as they are faced with an identity crisis at some point.
[QUOTE=Crazy Ivan;45395362] [B]Zach[/B]* Weinersmith, the guy who writes SMBC, does it best. His characters serve as vehicles for telling a joke, and sometimes gender tension might be necessary for the joke but for the most part it doesn't. He ends up with a tremendous array of ethnic characters and gender pairings that fit naturally with the words coming out of their mouths, when he could just as easily do what most webcomic writers do and have two Tycho&Gabe caliber talking heads acting as his story telling vehicles.[/QUOTE] Whenever I read his comics I get the impression that he lets a RNG dictate what each character's gender, age, and race are. [editline]15th July 2014[/editline] I'm not saying that like it's a bad or good thing, it's just the impression I got.
[QUOTE=c:;45395195]Honestly, who cares? I get that I'm a privileged white man and have been portrayed as the hero in everything ever and blah blah blah, but it's really dumb that people are forced to make their character as much of a minority as possible just to not receive criticism. To me, it's gotten to a point that it feels like... "Male character lead in a videogame? Devs are sexist pigs. Female character isn't black? Wow, how typically racist. Female character is black? She's still conformed to beauty stereotypes, so you're still a sexist pig. Female character is black and fat and unattractive? You disgusting person, you made them ugly on purpose. You must hate women and black people." I'm sorry for ranting, but I really just do not care. Promote acceptance without forcing it.[/QUOTE] More videogames need the 70's independent afro-laden disco queen archetype. I'm sad that they're extinct in the real world
I feel that it's only on Facepunch that such a simple statement can get such a strong reactions. She's stating that the diversity among the people in UK does not reflect the diversity among the people in kid litterature. She's not forcing anyone to change, she's making an observation and thinks that a change may be good. But somehow, the discussion devolves into posts about genetics, race mixing, fucking 1st cousins and this: [QUOTE=c:;45395195]Honestly, who cares? I get that I'm a privileged white man and have been portrayed as the hero in everything ever and blah blah blah, but it's really dumb that people are forced to make their character as much of a minority as possible just to not receive criticism. To me, it's gotten to a point that it feels like... "Male character lead in a videogame? Devs are sexist pigs. Female character isn't black? Wow, how typically racist. Female character is black? She's still conformed to beauty stereotypes, so you're still a sexist pig. Female character is black and fat and unattractive? You disgusting person, you made them ugly on purpose. You must hate women and black people." I'm sorry for ranting, but I really just do not care. Promote acceptance without forcing it.[/QUOTE] No one is forcing anything, why are you so insecure. Like, why do you even care what a vocal minority says. [QUOTE=BLUcody;45401447]honestly, as a vietnamese person i agree with this so much. in my life i grew up in such shitty conditions and dealt with such shitty factors in my life like abusive family, no mother, ghetto neighborhood in a state full of conservative whites and ofc my development being impacted as well. i feel like if i just found a few role models in my life that were the same as me that i could relate too, that have faced the same persecutions as i did growing up then i wouldve turned out better i used to wish i was white so i wouldnt receive the shit i got as a kid[/QUOTE] That sucks, I'm not white either and I live in Sweden. I know it may be easy for me to say, but you shouldn't just give a shit about what some retards say about you.
It's funny, take a second and compare this to the Thor thread. In here, the very first reply with hundreds of agrees basically says to leave authors alone, don't impose your will on them, it's their creative work and they can do what they want with it. This sentiment comes up a lot on Facepunch, usually in a discussion about diversity in video game characters. The Thor thread is far less shit, but I've yet to actually see anyone defending Marvel's creative freedom. It's either outrage (for some reason), or people who are okay with it because comic books always change things like this. But not much in the way of "it's Marvel's right to write their characters how they want".
[QUOTE=Zeke129;45404641]It's funny, take a second and compare this to the Thor thread. In here, the very first reply with hundreds of agrees basically says to leave authors alone, don't impose your will on them, it's their creative work and they can do what they want with it. This sentiment comes up a lot on Facepunch, usually in a discussion about diversity in video game characters. The Thor thread is far less shit, but I've yet to actually see anyone defending Marvel's creative freedom. It's either outrage (for some reason), or people who are okay with it because comic books always change things like this. But not much in the way of "it's Marvel's right to write their characters how they want".[/QUOTE] The outrage over Thor especially confuses me because every version of every character exists within its own universe.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;45398660]nobody is being "forced" to do anything. why can't people read this article, be all like "Ok. Good suggestion. I, an adult, haven't read enough children's books to be aware of a problem but I agree, on principal, that children's books should represent everybody" and then move on with their lives? why do you people have to take offense at the mildest statements imaginable?[/QUOTE] I wasn't referring to the contents of the article, I was referring to the comment about being forced to be tolerant.
What difference does the color of a character in a book make? We are all equal, regardless of color. If people start to write more childrens books with colored characters then so be it, but it's not a problem that they generally don't. People need to stop thinking in ethnicities, genders and sexualities. We are all people and should do what's best for people.
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