• Children's books are too white, says Laureate
    160 replies, posted
[QUOTE=maeZtro;45406153]What difference does the color of a character in a book make? We are all equal, regardless of color. If people start to write more childrens books with colored characters then so be it, but it's not a problem that they generally don't. People need to stop thinking in ethnicities, genders and sexualities. We are all people and should do what's best for people.[/QUOTE] Yes yes it matters a fucking lot when you're a kid. Stating it does not matter is ignorance in on itself. If you're a black toddler in a white neighborhood and your toys are all white and all books portray white kids you might start to think you're ugly and wrong. Don't forget these are kids, they are not yet capable of rational thought. If they see only whites they will think that's the standard and they're the outcast. Saying it does not matter is fucking nonsense.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;45404641]It's funny, take a second and compare this to the Thor thread. In here, the very first reply with hundreds of agrees basically says to leave authors alone, don't impose your will on them, it's their creative work and they can do what they want with it. This sentiment comes up a lot on Facepunch, usually in a discussion about diversity in video game characters. The Thor thread is far less shit, but I've yet to actually see anyone defending Marvel's creative freedom. It's either outrage (for some reason), or people who are okay with it because comic books always change things like this. But not much in the way of "it's Marvel's right to write their characters how they want".[/QUOTE] I don't really have much issue with this when Marvel has done stuff like [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Zombies_(series)]Marvel Zombies[/url], [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Apes]Marvel Apes[/url], [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Ham]Spider-Ham[/url], and especially Dead Pool. The Marvel Multiverse seems to be a place where you can just have whatever the fuck you want, which is pretty cool. [editline]oh hamburgers[/editline] I could have sworn I posted this in the Thor thread.
[QUOTE=seano12;45403597]I do not think it is always beneficial for an individual to be bi or even tri racial. Mixed race people have few role models that represent their kind. Not only this, but sometimes mixed race people are not accepted by the races that they consist of. This can be very troubling for the individual as they are faced with an identity crisis at some point.[/QUOTE] Well as a biracial individual i can say that's bullshit. Being racially ambiguous just meant I could identify with more people, not less. As in, I'm both white and asian, not neither.
[QUOTE=Eric95;45406498]Well as a biracial individual i can say that's bullshit. Being racially ambiguous just meant I could identify with more people, not less. As in, I'm both white and asian, not neither.[/QUOTE] You're an alien to me! Good thing there are a lot of scifi books that you can related to. HAHA.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;45406182]Yes yes it matters a fucking lot when you're a kid. Stating it does not matter is ignorance in on itself. If you're a black toddler in a white neighborhood and your toys are all white and all books portray white kids you might start to think you're ugly and wrong. Don't forget these are kids, they are not yet capable of rational thought. If they see only whites they will think that's the standard and they're the outcast. Saying it does not matter is fucking nonsense.[/QUOTE] Do you actual evidence to back this up? Based on personal experience I know quite a lot of people who grew up in areas where their skin color was very rarely seen outside of their own family and they turned out to be great people how had generally good childhoods.
[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;45403368][IMG]http://www.ezra-jack-keats.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/snowyday.jpg[/IMG] She should get her head out of her ass. There's tons of racial diversity in kids' books.[/QUOTE] I fucking loved that book!
[QUOTE=FunnyStarRunner;45399133]I bet she hates Dr. Seuss books since the people in them are literally white.[/QUOTE] But if you know anything about Dr. Suess you'd know he was a pretty big advocate of african-american rights.
[QUOTE=sgman91;45407422]Do you actual evidence to back this up? Based on personal experience I know quite a lot of people who grew up in areas where their skin color was very rarely seen outside of their own family and they turned out to be great people how had generally good childhoods.[/QUOTE] um [B]me[/B]
[QUOTE=itisjuly;45406182]Yes yes it matters a fucking lot when you're a kid. Stating it does not matter is ignorance in on itself. If you're a black toddler in a white neighborhood and your toys are all white and all books portray white kids you might start to think you're ugly and wrong. Don't forget these are kids, they are not yet capable of rational thought. If they see only whites they will think that's the standard and they're the outcast. Saying it does not matter is fucking nonsense.[/QUOTE] First of all, that kid has parents and it is their job to make their child feel loved and explain that there isn't anything wrong with being of a different ethnicity then the majority. Furthermore, I don't think that painting toys and characters in books will have any effect on how a child feels whatsoever. I don't think that a child thinks in terms of ethnicity unless it is raised to do so.
[QUOTE=BLUcody;45407671]um [B]me[/B][/QUOTE] Personal experience isn't evidence for generalized arguments.
[QUOTE=sgman91;45407422]Do you actual evidence to back this up?[/QUOTE] Here's evidence to back up the idea that kids understand differences between people and objects at an early age. They will associate themselves with groups and form prejudices that are both logical and illogical. These behaviors continue throughout life. [url]http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_bloom_can_prejudice_ever_be_a_good_thing[/url] [QUOTE=sgman91;45407422]Based on personal experience I know quite a lot of people who grew up in areas where their skin color was very rarely seen outside of their own family and they turned out to be great people how had generally good childhoods.[/QUOTE] Now you're claiming they will have good childhoods regardless of their race. I think it's very closed minded to say racial prejudices never effect children.
[QUOTE=sgman91;45409931]Personal experience isn't evidence for generalized arguments.[/QUOTE] also youre implying that race doesnt and sounds like it shouldnt be a visible factor in childhood and thats a troublesome attitude and i think it is for the non whites living in ghetto neighborhoods like i did, whose blackness is portrayed consistently in american media stereotypically as the archetypal street thug.
[QUOTE=maeZtro;45408323]First of all, that kid has parents and it is their job to make their child feel loved and explain that there isn't anything wrong with being of a different ethnicity then the majority. Furthermore, I don't think that painting toys and characters in books will have any effect on how a child feels whatsoever. I don't think that a child thinks in terms of ethnicity unless it is raised to do so.[/QUOTE] Yes, if a ethnic kid, bombarded with white influences, starts to question why they may be different and feel negative about themselves, then clearly it's because their parents failed at their duties. Children think about their differences from one another whether taught or not ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_and_Mamie_Clark[/url]), and to think that society doesn't play a role in shaping influences? You're deluding yourself.
No good writer would even bother specifying a character's skin tone unless there was a solid reason for it. Chekhov's gun is one of the simplest and most important rules to follow.
[QUOTE=Jorori;45395580]Books are too white? Use recycled, non-bleached paper then; think of the poor trees![/QUOTE] I sincerely thought when I saw the title that the 'Laureate' found out that children tend to read more old books if their books as children are printed on yellow-er paper. I guess I was wrong...
[QUOTE=Kardia;45410089]Now you're claiming they will have good childhoods regardless of their race. I think it's very closed minded to say racial prejudices never effect children.[/QUOTE] I never claimed either of those things. Go back and read what I wrote please. [QUOTE]Here's evidence to back up the idea that kids understand differences between people and objects at an early age. They will associate themselves with groups and form prejudices that are both logical and illogical. These behaviors continue throughout life. [URL="http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_bloom_can_prejudice_ever_be_a_good_thing"]http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_bloom_...e_a_good_thing[/URL][/QUOTE] I'm currently watching the video, but as a side note: TED talks aren't exactly scientific proof. The guys in the video quotes a whole lot of specific studies that I would have to see for myself to take it as real proof. I've seen too many "scientific" studies cited as fact that fell under even the slightest critical analysis of methodologies and questioning. Even with all that said, the conclusion that children see, notice and prefer prejudices, is not the same thing as saying that they will, no matter the ideas given to them by parents and teachers, be strongly effected by seeing their skin color in kids books. [QUOTE]also youre implying that race doesnt and sounds like it shouldnt be a visible factor in childhood and thats a troublesome attitude and i think it is for the non whites living in ghetto neighborhoods like i did, whose blackness is portrayed consistently in american media stereotypically as the archetypal street thug.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry you had a bad childhood, but I can't provide counter arguments to emotion and vague, non-specific claims.
[QUOTE=Eric95;45406498]Well as a biracial individual i can say that's bullshit. Being racially ambiguous just meant I could identify with more people, not less. As in, I'm both white and asian, not neither.[/QUOTE] It's different for everyone. As a triracial individual I experienced a lot of it growing up.
[QUOTE=sgman91;45410834]I never claimed either of those things. Go back and read what I wrote please. I'm currently watching the video, but as a side note: TED talks aren't exactly scientific proof. I will comment on the video's content in a bit. I'm sorry you had a bad childhood, but I can't provide counter arguments to emotion and vague, non-specific claims.[/QUOTE] "and i think it is for the non whites living in ghetto neighborhoods like i did, whose blackness is portrayed consistently in american media stereotypically as the archetypal street thug." more specifically, black youth in neighborhoods in poverty, how the cycle keeps continuing of black youth churned out from those ghettos to end up in jail the majority of times
[QUOTE=Eric95;45406498]Well as a biracial individual i can say that's bullshit. Being racially ambiguous just meant I could identify with more people, not less. As in, I'm both white and asian, not neither.[/QUOTE] You can choose and switch when it gets convenient.
[QUOTE=BLUcody;45410860]"and i think it is for the non whites living in ghetto neighborhoods like i did, whose blackness is portrayed consistently in american media stereotypically as the archetypal street thug." more specifically, black youth in neighborhoods in poverty, how the cycle keeps continuing of black youth churned out from those ghettos to end up in jail the majority of times[/QUOTE] You're stating conclusions as if they are arguments in themselves. What is your actual argument? That black kids continue the cycle because they have low self-esteem based on not seeing people like them in media?
[QUOTE=sgman91;45410942]You're stating conclusions as if they are arguments in themselves. What is your actual argument? That black kids continue the cycle because they have low self-esteem based on not seeing people like them in media?[/QUOTE] the argument is that we need more representation in media so this shit doesnt happen. the argument doesnt need to be said because i already made my points. its literally as simple as you said it, they don't see anybody like themselves out there. humans are social creatures and lead by association. youth in development, their brains are convoluted that thatll do simple shit like this but of course that reason has a whole slew of factors underneath as well. (misrepresentation in america, minority societal standing, whitewashing, but this is a whole other topic). honestly, this problem needs a lot more then misrepresentation but it is a cause if you need evidence of the perpetual cycle of poverty im minorities [url]http://www.childrensdefense.org/programs-campaigns/black-community-crusade-for-children-II/bccc-assets/portrait-of-inequality.pdf[/url] [url]http://www.epi.org/blog/african-american-poverty-concentrated-multi/[/url] [url]http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2012/2012026/chapter3_31.asp[/url] [url]http://www.carseyinstitute.unh.edu/publications/IB-Mattingly-BlackChildPoverty.pdf[/url]
[QUOTE=sgman91;45409931]Personal experience isn't evidence for generalized arguments.[/QUOTE] Dude, you [i]just[/i] used personal evidence in the post he quoted.
[QUOTE=sgman91;45409931]Personal experience isn't evidence for generalized arguments.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=sgman91;45407422]Do you actual evidence to back this up? [b]Based on personal experience I know[/b] quite a lot of people who grew up in areas where their skin color was very rarely seen outside of their own family and they turned out to be great people how had generally good childhoods.[/QUOTE] You made an argument from personal experience, asked someone to counter, they did so with personal experience, and now you're scolding them for it?
Yeah! Kids books are so racist! Look at the treatment of raccoons in these horrible books [t]http://mbamamamusings.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/9780803739475B.jpg[/t] This is about a raccoon who steals pizza from the trash and everyone hates him This cannot be allowed. There are too many books like this perpetuating raccoon stereotypes #justiceforraccoons [sp]But naw, seriously though, while I agree with her overall message, I think authors should be allowed to write whatever they want[/sp]
[QUOTE=spekter;45410465]No good writer would even bother specifying a character's skin tone unless there was a solid reason for it. Chekhov's gun is one of the simplest and most important rules to follow.[/QUOTE] It's funny because Malorie Blackman isn't a good writer.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;45412380]You made an argument from personal experience, asked someone to counter, they did so with personal experience, and now you're scolding them for it?[/QUOTE] Sigh... He made a claim, I responded that his claim didn't jive with my personal experience, and I then asked him to provide actual evidence for his initial claim. The only "argument" I made from personal experience was that his claim wasn't a common experience by everyone who grew up in areas of differing racial groups. Showing experiences of people I know to be different is enough evidence to justify that claim. The specific claim of his that I responded to was: [QUOTE]If you're a black toddler in a white neighborhood and your toys are all white and all books portray white kids you might start to think you're ugly and wrong.[/QUOTE] I would love to see proof for a genetically based response to seeing people of another color in books/toys/etc. making one feel that they are "ugly and wrong."
[QUOTE=sgman91;45413188] I would love to see proof for a genetically based response to seeing people of another color in books/toys/etc. making one feel that they are "ugly and wrong."[/QUOTE] Someone already posted the doll study. And why does it need to be a "genetically-based" response? Our genes aren't the only things that affect us.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;45414134]Someone already posted the doll study. And why does it need to be a "genetically-based" response? Our genes aren't the only things that affect us.[/QUOTE] If it's a 'nurture' response, then we should focus on fixing that, not the symptoms.
[QUOTE=sgman91;45414837]If it's a 'nurture' response, then we should focus on fixing that[/QUOTE] ...by making sure that diversity is properly represented in childrens' literature
[QUOTE=sgman91;45414837]If it's a 'nurture' response, then we should focus on fixing that, not the symptoms.[/QUOTE] You literally just said that we need to teach black kids to deal with it.
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