[QUOTE=djshox;20440452]Why are you against it?[/QUOTE]
oh jesus
Well one of the many reasons is that there isn't the money for it.
If it passes, other optional things the government pays for will have to go or be more limited.
For example, I like many people of my age, are hoping to get into a good college later on and I'm hoping to help pay for it with the Georgia HOPE scholarship.
Now unlike with public schools, colleges aren't necessary for the state government to fund and with so little money in the HOPE scholarship right now, it's predicted that it may be completely gone soon even if just temporarily because the State won't keep paying for it.
Now, the reason the state will probably not keep paying for it is because they are losing so much money because they spent so much on education and things like that after the stimulus and with the national government having to spend so much money on healthcare, it's very unlikely that they would give another large stimulus to the states.
This is actually something I was considering today but you would probably know more about why people don't want it, if you weren't watching CNN where their only reason is "Republicans are crazy, this will fix everything"
[QUOTE=smurfy;20435843]Word on the street is that if the Republicans continue to be all "imonna oppose all your ideas cuz your the opposition party!!!" the Democrats are going to push healthcare reform through using budget reconciliation, a mechanic that (for some reason) allows them to pass a bill with a simple 51-seat majority instead of needing a 60-seat supermajority which they no longer have.[/QUOTE]
Well, were it not for the Filibuster, a mechanic that (for some reason) allows the minority party to stall legislation indefinitely, a simple 51-seat majority would suffice anyway. Also I hate that the senate even exists. It's bullshit. California gets the same representation as Wyoming and it has 72 times as many people. People always forget that our founding fathers didn't give a shit about the union and there first duty was to their state. Also state population didn't differ by much. Ever wonder why any real reform always dies in the senate?
[QUOTE=Dyson6;20440437]
Plus, even if it does pass, it would only be available in few states because so far over 30 states have decided that if it does pass, they will refuse to use it. (There is something that gives them the power to do that, but I can't recall exactly what.)[/QUOTE]
Source? I know some are doing that, but claiming 30 requires proof.
[editline]11:04PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jewsus;20443908]Ever wonder why any real reform always dies in the senate?[/QUOTE]
Because achieving a Senate seat requires much more time and funding, meaning more obligations to special interests, and the Senate has a stupidly high incumbency rate, so many of them have decades of favors owed.
McCain just got told mange.
fuck bipartisanship, what's the point of of trying to achieve it when the republicans go against every democrats do, simply because they're democrats?
[QUOTE=Jewsus;20443908]Well, were it not for the Filibuster, a mechanic that (for some reason) allows the minority party to stall legislation indefinitely, a simple 51-seat majority would suffice anyway. Also I hate that the senate even exists. It's bullshit. California gets the same representation as Wyoming and it has 72 times as many people. People always forget that our founding fathers didn't give a shit about the union and there first duty was to their state. Also state population didn't differ by much. Ever wonder why any real reform always dies in the senate?[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't Wyoming's needs get eclipsed if the senate weren't in place?
[QUOTE=Exploits;20437523]But only because the shit the Republicans try to pass are fucking absurd 90% of the time.[/QUOTE]
No. When a Republican comes up with a good idea that could be really useful Democrats resent it just because a Republican introduced the bill, and vice-versa. Your mindset is what's causing congress to not get shit done, all of this bipartisanship is getting annoying. Republicans and Democrats alike should be working together dammit. But no that can't happen, since if either are seen in public with eachother you can bet your ass they would be out by the next election.
[QUOTE=Amez;20444934]No. When a [b](1)[/b]Republican comes up with a good idea that could be really useful Democrats resent it just because a Republican introduced the bill, and vice-versa. Your mindset is what's causing congress to not get shit done, all of this bipartisanship is getting annoying. [b](2)[/b]Republicans and Democrats alike should be working together dammit. But no that can't happen, since if either are seen in public with eachother you can bet your ass they would be out by the next election.[/QUOTE]
1 - Name some of them
2 - Why and how? Majority of Republicans of conservatives, meaning they want to stay the same while majority of Democrats are somewhat progressive, meaning they want to advance
[QUOTE=Amez;20444934]No. When a Republican comes up with a good idea that could be really useful Democrats resent it just because a Republican introduced the bill, and vice-versa. Your mindset is what's causing congress to not get shit done, all of this bipartisanship is getting annoying. Republicans and Democrats alike should be working together dammit. But no that can't happen, since if either are seen in public with eachother you can bet your ass they would be out by the next election.[/QUOTE]
Have you [i]seen[/i] any of the Republican's healthcare proposals? Cut taxes, keep people from suing for malpractice, and encourage people to set up meaningless savings accounts while rates continue to get double digit hikes every year. CBO, which both sides cite regularly, clearly says the Republican's plan will have no impact on the deficit and will only cover 3 million people at best. 2.7 million people were dropped by the insurance companies just last year. Meanwhile, the Democrat's plan will cover upwards of 30 million, while having a positive effect on the deficit in ten years or so.
They aren't brushing off the Republicans just because they're Republicans, they're brushing them off because they don't have any plans whatsoever beyond watching their stocks go up while the insurance companies continue to bankrupt and/or kill people. It also doesn't help that all the people proposing these inane little "ideas" are going back to their districts on weekends and telling their constituents that health reform is really a secret liberal plot to euthanize old people and force abortions.
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;20445010]1 - Name some of them
2 - Why and how? Majority of Republicans of conservatives, meaning they want to stay the same while majority of Democrats are somewhat progressive, meaning they want to advance[/QUOTE]
WRT to #1 the Republicans have said that Health Insurance should be able to be bought and sold over state lines. And that has been in none of the bills that have been voted on.
It even says in the Constitution in black and white that the federal government has control of interstate commerce, and this is a perfect use of that power. Instead they choose to coerce people to buy insurance they may not even want or need.
[editline]11:12PM[/editline]
Also hasn't Obama been preaching "health insurance competition" this whole time? And he doesn't even want to allow people in New York to buy insurance from Utah?
They're not "coercing", that's bullshit. You pay a 2.5% income tax or you buy health insurance, there's no Obamacare goon squad throwing you in jail for not buy insurance. If you can't afford it, there are subsidies so you CAN afford it. This is the only way to ensure an insurance pool large enough to justify forcing the insurance companies to stop dropping or denying people's coverage. If that was all they did, then people wouldn't buy insurance unless they were sick, and the system would collapse.
And he was promoting competition in the context of running a government plan to compete with the insurance companies to force a certain level of affordability. But, no, that's evil socialized medicine, we can't have that!
You can't tax people just because they choose not to buy something. That's so unconstitutional that it's not even funny.
I'm not willing to give up my rights for a system that is so broken that the only way to fix it is to shred the Constitution.
[quote] If that was all they did, then people wouldn't buy insurance unless they were sick, and the system would collapse. [/quote]
That's exactly what will happen. Disregarding how unconstitutional the tax is, it's costs much less to pay it than it is to buy health insurance. So if health insurance companies can't deny anyone, then people will pay the tax and then buy insurance when they need it and immediately cancel it when they're done.
I was hoping that this would a repeat of the Great Depression but on a lesser scale and Obama would just introduce a '3rd New Deal' and follow FDR's steps.
Sadly Obama's administration compared to FDR's is like a child born with downs. And the fact that the Republicans exist in Congress is lame.
[QUOTE=Dyson6;20440670]Well one of the many reasons is that there isn't the money for it.
If it passes, other optional things the government pays for will have to go or be more limited.
For example, I like many people of my age, are hoping to get into a good college later on and I'm hoping to help pay for it with the Georgia HOPE scholarship.
Now unlike with public schools, colleges aren't necessary for the state government to fund and with so little money in the HOPE scholarship right now, it's predicted that it may be completely gone soon even if just temporarily because the State won't keep paying for it.
Now, the reason the state will probably not keep paying for it is because they are losing so much money because they spent so much on education and things like that after the stimulus and with the national government having to spend so much money on healthcare, it's very unlikely that they would give another large stimulus to the states.
This is actually something I was considering today but you would probably know more about why people don't want it, if you weren't watching CNN where their only reason is "Republicans are crazy, this will fix everything"[/QUOTE]
You do realize that HOPE isn't going to be going away anytime soon. Cutbacks are being made in book allowance, but that's the only planned change, and it doesn't take effect until 2011.
And what the fuck does the Federal government have to do with HOPE, HOPE is funded by the Georgia Lottery, not the federal government.
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;20445317]They're not "coercing", that's bullshit. You pay a 2.5% income tax or you buy health insurance, there's no Obamacare goon squad throwing you in jail for not buy insurance. If you can't afford it, there are subsidies so you CAN afford it. This is the only way to ensure an insurance pool large enough to justify forcing the insurance companies to stop dropping or denying people's coverage. If that was all they did, then people wouldn't buy insurance unless they were sick, and the system would collapse.
And he was promoting competition in the context of running a government plan to compete with the insurance companies to force a certain level of affordability. But, no, that's evil socialized medicine, we can't have that![/QUOTE]
Uh yea, How well is you local post office run? (Hey, Obama made the comparison first)
Why should we even let the government compete when it can't run any thing at all well?
Look at social security, There is nothing "secure" about it and it 's going to run out of money even sooner than predicted.
[QUOTE=Glaber;20445471]Uh yea, How well is you local post office run? (Hey, Obama made the comparison first)
Why should we even let the government compete when it can't run any thing at all well?
Look at social security, There is nothing "secure" about it and it 's going to run out of money even sooner than predicted.[/QUOTE]
pssst
the postal service is run well
teehee
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;20445381]You can't tax people just because they choose not to buy something. That's so unconstitutional that it's not even funny.[/QUOTE]
In many places water and garbage pickup are included in the same tax. Don't want to pay to have your garbage picked up? No water for you.
It's exactly the same.
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;20445381]You can't tax people just because they choose not to buy something. That's so unconstitutional that it's not even funny.
I'm not willing to give up my rights for a system that is so broken that the only way to fix it is to shred the Constitution.
[/QUOTE]
A. We already arrest people for owning a car and not buying car insurance. Also, as mentioned, it's essential to making reform work and health insurance affordable. This guy is freakishly intelligent and explains that better than me:
[url]http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/12/draft_1.html[/url]
B. If it's unconstitutional, then why did many of the Republicans bleating to the cameras about it's freedom-killing unconstitutionality propose "alternative" health bills that had, gasp, an individual mandate? As far back as the Clinton administration, and as recently as last year, Republicans backed individual mandates as an alternative to government healthcare. Now that government healthcare is out the window and the Democrats want an individual mandate, guess what? Republican's say it's unconstitutional and demand things be changed even further to the right than what they already proposed! The fucking hypocrites are being given exactly what they wanted in the 90s, and yet they carry on about it being unconstitutional.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUxV6UGzo6g&feature=player_embedded[/url]
[url]http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123670612[/url]
[QUOTE=Glaber;20445471]Uh yea, How well is you local post office run? (Hey, Obama made the comparison first)
Why should we even let the government compete when it can't run any thing at all well?
Look at social security, There is nothing "secure" about it and it 's going to run out of money even sooner than predicted.[/QUOTE]
lol, do you think that senators are going to be overseeing the hospitals or something?
and the post office is shit because it's not some life or death shit so nobody really gives enough of a shit to fix that shit
[QUOTE=Glaber;20445471]Uh yea, How well is you local post office run? (Hey, Obama made the comparison first)
Why should we even let the government compete when it can't run any thing at all well?
Look at social security, There is nothing "secure" about it and it 's going to run out of money even sooner than predicted.[/QUOTE]
Medicare pays out a far greater percentage of it's income than any insurance company, and it's administrative costs are smaller than any insurance company. Also, it gets very high satisfaction ratings from people covered by it, and never drops people because they get sick. The post office works very fucking well.
Social security isn't going bankrupt because of administrative problems, it's going bankrupt because the elderly are outnumbering young people and Republicans seem to have no problem raiding it's funding to pay for their own pet projects.
Politics SUCK
Its so hard to get shit done. Being president would blow
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;20445622]...Social security isn't going bankrupt because of administrative problems, it's going bankrupt because the elderly are outnumbering young people and Republicans seem to have no problem raiding it's funding to pay for their own pet projects.[/QUOTE]
Both sides do that. point?
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;20445575]A. We already arrest people for owning a car and not buying car insurance. Also, as mentioned, it's essential to making reform work and health insurance affordable. This guy is freakishly intelligent and explains that better than me:
[url]http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/12/draft_1.html[/url]
B. If it's unconstitutional, then why did many of the Republicans bleating to the cameras about it's freedom-killing unconstitutionality propose "alternative" health bills that had, gasp, an individual mandate? As far back as the Clinton administration, and as recently as last year, Republicans backed individual mandates as an alternative to government healthcare. Now that government healthcare is out the window and the Democrats want an individual mandate, guess what? Republican's say it's unconstitutional and demand things be changed even further to the right than what they already proposed! The fucking hypocrites are being given exactly what they wanted in the 90s, and yet they carry on about it being unconstitutional.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUxV6UGzo6g&feature=player_embedded[/url]
[url]http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123670612[/url][/QUOTE]
A. With cars, you don't have to buy a car or drive on public roads. If you don't own a car you don't have to pay for insurance. With this healthcare bill there is no way out of paying it short of moving to another country. Secondly, car insurance is a state issue. Some states may not require it; I don't know of any off the top of my head though. And the States aren't bound to the Constitution anyway. Anything that isn't in it is left to the States.
And thirdly the point of car insurance is to pay for damage you cause to other peoples' cars. It's not to keep you healthy at all. Being healthy is my choice, and I get to choose whether or not my health matters to me. I'm not hurting anyone by not buying insurance unless you're of the opinion that I'm not helping other people pay for their problems.
B. I'm not a Republican, I'm a Libertarian. So I'll oppose any bill that forces people to buy health insurance, Republican or Democrat. But I actually didn't know the Republicans had proposed that in the past. I just happen to support the Republicans at the moment because they're stopping a bill I don't like. The minute they propose something I don't like I'll oppose them on that issue.
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;20445794]
I'm a Libertarian.[/QUOTE]
That explains the logistical issues
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;20445794]A. With cars, you don't have to buy a car or drive on public roads. If you don't own a car you don't have to pay for insurance. With this healthcare bill there is no way out of paying it short of moving to another country. Secondly, car insurance is a state issue. Some states may not require it; I don't know of any off the top of my head though. And the States aren't bound to the Constitution anyway. Anything that isn't in it is left to the States.
And thirdly the point of car insurance is to pay for damage you cause to other peoples' cars. It's not to keep you healthy at all. Being healthy is my choice, and I get to choose whether or not my health matters to me. I'm not hurting anyone by not buying insurance unless you're of the opinion that I'm not helping other people pay for their problems.[/quote]
Yes, you are hurting other people by not buying health insurance, because somebody eventually has to pick up the cost of your emergency room visits or other costs that you can't afford. More often than not, it's the taxpayers.
Also, States are absolutely bound to the Constitution through the supremacy clause. And we already require people to buy insurance through Medicare, you have to pay into it your whole life until you're old enough to qualify for it. If anything that's better than the current plan because Medicare doesn't make a profit, and pays out the vast majority of what it takes in.
[quote]B. I'm not a Republican, I'm a Libertarian. So I'll oppose any bill that forces people to buy health insurance, Republican or Democrat. But I actually didn't know the Republicans had proposed that in the past. I just happen to support the Republicans at the moment because they're stopping a bill I don't like. The minute they propose something I don't like I'll oppose them on that issue.[/QUOTE]
Then why don't you oppose them for putting idiotic political posturing ahead of the good of the country? Unless you're one of those people that thinks we shouldn't do anything, and that people who can't afford healthcare just aren't worthy of the privilege of being alive.
Isn't the basis of the "no we don't want universal health-care" idea is that the govt. is incompetent and can't do anything right?
Correct me if I'm wrong
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;20445900]Yes, you are hurting other people by not buying health insurance, because somebody eventually has to pick up the cost of your emergency room visits or other costs that you can't afford. More often than not, it's the taxpayers.
[/quote]
I'm note one of those people that try to game the system. By choosing to not buy insurance, I'm choosing to not be in the Emergency room. So if I break my arm, I'm not going to be in the emergency room.
However, I haven't figured out how to say "Don't touch me, I'm not paying for an emergency room visit" if I'm found unconscious somewhere.
[quote]
Also, States are absolutely bound to the Constitution through the supremacy clause. And we already require people to buy insurance through Medicare, you have to pay into it your whole life until you're old enough to qualify for it. If anything that's better than the current plan because Medicare doesn't make a profit, and pays out the vast majority of what it takes in.
[/quote]
Oh yeah, I forgot a huge chunk of my paychecks go to Medicare. Not a fan of that either.
[quote]
Then why don't you oppose them for putting idiotic political posturing ahead of the good of the country? Unless you're one of those people that thinks we shouldn't do anything, and that people who can't afford healthcare just aren't worthy of the privilege of being alive.[/QUOTE]
Like I said before, one thing I'm for is trading across state lines.
John Stonssel had an interesting segment on ABC recently. He argues that insurance shouldn't be used for absolutely everything.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WnS96NVlMI[/media]
I wonder how many taxes go to funding the war on terror.
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;20446043]I'm note one of those people that try to game the system. By choosing to not buy insurance, I'm choosing to not be in the Emergency room. So if I break my arm, I'm not going to be in the emergency room.
However, I haven't figured out how to say "Don't touch me, I'm not paying for an emergency room visit" if I'm found unconscious somewhere.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, when you're screaming in agony from having a broken piece of bone sticking out of your arm, your thoughts will totally be on going back home and resetting it yourself. Going without insurance is all well and good until you need it.
Really, dude, you just revealed to everyone how young, stupid, and naive you are. "Lol, I don't need health insurance because I'll never be in the emergency room!"
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