Transgender rights bill threatens 'female-born' women's spaces, activists say
49 replies, posted
Honestly I think the best strategy for the hard right would be to just LET extremist feminists exist. They might as well be trying to drive us back to the Victorian age as well.
[QUOTE=Glo;52223406]When wrong meets stupid[/QUOTE]
Who's wrong and who's stupid? Both apply to TERFs, who's the other party?
[QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;52224380]Lauren Southern is a reactionary conservative. She went through this process of changing her legal gender identity not because of any gender dysphoria she feels (which she does not), but because she's trying to make a farce of trans rights. She [I]does not consider herself a man[/I] nor does she expect anyone else to; she's simply made herself a straw man for the alt right to link to whenever they see something about a trans person.
Why does a liar cheating her way through gatekeeping for a joke mean we have to trample legitimate trans people who sincerely wish to transition and be accepted?[/QUOTE]
Actually she demonstrates pretty well how little is required to legally change your sex in Canada which is part of the reason that people dont take it seriously.
Changing your sex is something that should be exclusively for people who have dedicated themselves to transitioning and in order to do that well you have to go through a specialist.
[editline]13th May 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Reflex F.N.;52224078]I am a bit skeptical about this video; there is no way to know that all of that wasn't acting.[/QUOTE]
I can understand your skepticism. I personally think it all looks pretty legit though.
[editline]13th May 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;52224968]Who's wrong and who's stupid? Both apply to TERFs, who's the other party?[/QUOTE]
I personally feel that while the bill is well intentioned it was not put in place well and can easily be abused and be detrimental to freedom of speech. I actually feel similarly to Jordan Peterson (if you've heard of him?) on this issue, he's been pretty outspoken on this issue.
[QUOTE=Glo;52225173]Actually she demonstrates pretty well how little is required to legally change your sex in Canada which is part of the reason that people dont take it seriously.
Changing your sex is something that should be exclusively for people who have dedicated themselves to transitioning and in order to do that well you have to go through a specialist.
[editline]13th May 2017[/editline]
I can understand your skepticism. I personally think it all looks pretty legit though.
[editline]13th May 2017[/editline]
I personally feel that while the bill is well intentioned it was not put in place well and can easily be abused and be detrimental to freedom of speech. I actually feel similarly to Jordan Peterson (if you've heard of him?) on this issue, he's been pretty outspoken on this issue.[/QUOTE]
I'd argue it's far better for the process to be easy and fallible, and therefore include idiots trying to prove an asinine point than it is to deny treatment and slow progress for people with actual disphoria which causes infinitely more distress than whatever the supposed terrible outcomes of allowing cis people to pretend to be trans.
[QUOTE=Glo;52225173]Actually she demonstrates pretty well how little is required to legally change your sex in Canada which is part of the reason that people dont take it seriously.
Changing your sex is something that should be exclusively for people who have dedicated themselves to transitioning and in order to do that well you have to go through a specialist.
[editline]13th May 2017[/editline]
I can understand your skepticism. I personally think it all looks pretty legit though.
[editline]13th May 2017[/editline]
I personally feel that while the bill is well intentioned it was not put in place well and can easily be abused and be detrimental to freedom of speech. I actually feel similarly to Jordan Peterson (if you've heard of him?) on this issue, he's been pretty outspoken on this issue.[/QUOTE]
First off, healthcare in Canada is handled provincially. The standards in Ontario (my personal province of residence) are not the same as those in PEI or British Columbia. There are different guidelines for the provinces in regards to trans healthcare and moreover the quality and availability of care is wanting in too many areas.
Secondly. You realize Lauren Southern's a [I]satirist pundit[/I], right? She's pretty gosh darn used to spinning words and playing things straight-faced. It doesn't matter how "easy" it was for her to do it when 1) it was like she was playing a game the whole time - it was laid out right in the beginning that she was taking the piss; 2) she's [I]not actually trans and does not live as a man nor does she wish to[/I]; 3) her history shows that she has consistently been a reactionary, anti-feminist conservative activist.
Oh, and Jordan Peterson?
[img]https://my.mixtape.moe/nplcdf.png[/img]
The guy who believes in Cultural Marxism?
[url]https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson[/url]
[img]https://my.mixtape.moe/izafra.png[/img]
The guy whose twitter seems to be at least half complaining about SJWs?
I think you ought to look things over a bit more.
[QUOTE=Glo;52225173]I personally feel that while the bill is well intentioned it was not put in place well and can easily be abused and be detrimental to freedom of speech. I actually feel similarly to Jordan Peterson (if you've heard of him?) on this issue, he's been pretty outspoken on this issue.[/QUOTE]
Jordan "the radicals have taken over" Peterson views are incredibly misinformed and are based on the assumption that if I mislabel someone I get in trouble which isn't the case. All C-16 does is add Transgender people to the list of protected individuals under the Canadian Human Rights Act.
This does for free speech as how calling someone a "nigger" will get you in trouble in HR does for free speech.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;52223413]Wait, are rape crisis centers woman only?[/QUOTE]
And the only male one, emphasis on one, in the world exists in sweden.
People aren't going to like this, but if you support mtf transgender people's right to make use of female oriented rape crisis centers (and i agree with this part), it also implies a question about whether or not female to male transgender people would then be allowed to go to a crisis center period, technically if you're respecting their transition to male you'd be barring them from any kind of rape support. Especially if they haven't had relevant surgery yet, it opens a massive can of worms thats a bit bigger than the transgender issue. Obviously biology is different, it results in different rape stats, but should similar services for males simply not exist to begin with? Why even be allowed to open a crisis center if you don't at least have a smaller male wing dependent on demand so there's no discrimination issue here at all, regardless of whether you're mtf or ftm (both of which you should probably be able to choose a wing depending on what stage you're at) or just you know, a man.
[QUOTE=Mattk50;52225592]And the only male one, emphasis on one, in the world exists in sweden.
People aren't going to like this, but if you support mtf transgender people's right to make use of female oriented rape crisis centers (and i agree with this part), it also implies a question about whether or not female to male transgender people would then be allowed to go to a crisis center period, technically if you're respecting their transition to male you'd be barring them from any kind of rape support. Especially if they haven't had relevant surgery yet, it opens a massive can of worms thats a bit bigger than the transgender issue. Obviously biology is different, it results in different rape stats, but should similar services for males simply not exist to begin with? Why even be allowed to open a crisis center if you don't at least have a smaller male wing dependent on demand so there's no discrimination issue here at all, regardless of whether you're mtf or ftm (both of which you should probably be able to choose a wing depending on what stage you're at) or just you know, a man.[/QUOTE]
Why do rape crisis centers have to be for females only
Males also experience rape
[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;52225232]I'd argue it's far better for the process to be easy and fallible, and therefore include idiots trying to prove an asinine point than it is to deny treatment and slow progress for people with actual disphoria which causes infinitely more distress than whatever the supposed terrible outcomes of allowing cis people to pretend to be trans.[/QUOTE]
I ge that adding restrictions may seem like an inconvenience but I think there's pros to the cons.
I feel that something like legal identity change is something that is purely supplemental to the precursor treatment, which I would imagine is therapy, hormones, and potentially gender reasignment surgery, it would be good to have a minimum amount of therapy that they undergo after they get diagnosed to make sure they get the support they need in making such an important decision (to transition).
I think the outcome of allowing just anyone (or trans-trenders) to legally be recognized as whatever gender they want (regardless of wether they've been verifiably diagnosed with dsyphoria and are actually committed to transitioning) is that people tend not to take the community as a whole as seriously...when you see these women and men who have taken virtually no steps to assimilate to the opposite gender but claim the same rights as trans people, the general population begins to question wether the people they are allowing to come into their locker rooms and gender segregated places are legitimately who they say they are. I think we need to make it clear that not just some crossdresser is allowed to use this provision, to be legally recognized as the opposite sex is a privedge meant for those suffering from this problem who feel this is the only way they can lead a happy life.
[editline]14th May 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;52225326]First off, healthcare in Canada is handled provincially. The standards in Ontario (my personal province of residence) are not the same as those in PEI or British Columbia. There are different guidelines for the provinces in regards to trans healthcare and moreover the quality and availability of care is wanting in too many areas.
[/QUOTE]
I had not considered the difference in guidelines between provincess actually. You mention in some places quality and availability of care is not great, do you feel that people suffering from gender dysphoria with a lack of care would benefit from changing their legal status? I just really dont think much will be solved at all with that alone.
[QUOTE]
Secondly. You realize Lauren Southern's a [I]satirist pundit[/I], right? She's pretty gosh darn used to spinning words and playing things straight-faced. It doesn't matter how "easy" it was for her to do it when 1) it was like she was playing a game the whole time - it was laid out right in the beginning that she was taking the piss; 2) she's [I]not actually trans and does not live as a man nor does she wish to[/I]; 3) her history shows that she has consistently been a reactionary, anti-feminist conservative activist.[/QUOTE]
I realize quite perfectly that she is a conservative talking head who went through the process knowingly and has no intention of living as a man. This video is meant to be a demonstration of the process of changing legal status in Canada and I think regardless of her background the video holds true. If you want to question the videos validity I can understand that but I dont think her background immediately discounts what I interpret to be a sort of investigative journalistic video.
[QUOTE]Oh, and Jordan Peterson?
[img]https://my.mixtape.moe/nplcdf.png[/img]
The guy who believes in Cultural Marxism?
[url]https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson[/url]
[img]https://my.mixtape.moe/izafra.png[/img]
The guy whose twitter seems to be at least half complaining about SJWs?
I think you ought to look things over a bit more.[/QUOTE]
I know who Jordan Peterson is and his background doesn't strike me as particularly daunting either. Needless to say I likely fall more conservative on the political spectrum (socially) than you might.
[editline]14th May 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;52225350]Jordan "the radicals have taken over" Peterson views are incredibly misinformed and are based on the assumption that if I mislabel someone I get in trouble which isn't the case. All C-16 does is add Transgender people to the list of protected individuals under the Canadian Human Rights Act.
This does for free speech as how calling someone a "nigger" will get you in trouble in HR does for free speech.[/QUOTE]
From what I understand, misgendering someone may be considered discrimination and the terms for gender identity is left fairly open ended.
Sure, youd have to be kind of a douche to intentionally not call someone what gender they feel best with to their face but i dont think its the same as calling someone a n*gger. Especially if it this is used to request something as unreasonable as Zi Zir Zirself or some other made up pronouns.
But, I will admit I havent read these provisions for the bill myself so ill go do that to clarify wether this is true.
[QUOTE=Paramud;52225713]Why do rape crisis centers have to be for females only
Males also experience rape[/QUOTE]
It's based on the serotype that men are always agressors who can't rape, and if they are raped they must have liked it.
So it's the risk of enough cis people abusing the system to impact the population Vs real trans people becoming suicidal over how long it can take to get through the medical system. I'll take the former. Also, as someone who has a disproportionately lgbt group of friends, all you need to do for them to not use discrimination laws against you, and in fact like you, is [I]not be an arsehole[/I]. No trans person is going to sue you over every slip, all you need to do is correct yourself and maybe a quick apology.
Just a heads up, people who don't suffer from dysphoria are likely to experience the symptoms of dysphoria while on cross-gender hormones. I find it hard to believe that a non-trans person would make it through the system for an extended period of time. Every step of the way is a logic check of: "Is this really the right thing for me?" and "Well, that confirms my feelings". Diagnosing a cis-gender person with dysphoria is highly unlikely, even more unlikely would be for them to actually transition.
In regards to female-born spaces. They're bullshit, it's just another way for someone to feel superior to someone else. I don't think you can quantify what makes someone a woman or a man. If you feel that you're one or the other then you are, no questions about it. TERFs are women that feel threatened by the existence of trans women for no logical reason, it's bigotry plain and simple.
[QUOTE=Paramud;52225713]Why do rape crisis centers have to be for females only
Males also experience rape[/QUOTE]
"Because you can't rape a man, they have to want it to have sex" is the common excuse for why male rape can't be a thing.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;52223413]Wait, are rape crisis centers woman only?[/QUOTE]
It does make sense to have them separate for practical reasons (as well as probably some other stuff), but afaik there are [I]very[/I] few abuse shelters for men.
Kill all TERFs
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Take a break." - Bradyns))[/highlight]
[QUOTE]What we are saying is: If you were born a female, you are doomed. You are doomed in our society to be second-class.[/QUOTE]
Is she talking about the west or Iran?
So I suppose what these activists would call ideal would be a "separate but equal" space designated for use by these undesirables, based on a fundamental and indelible aspect of self?
Didn't our supreme court say something about that?
Just make every bathroom unisex + 1 or more private bathrooms and be done with it. People can wait if they want privacy and the rest of us will have to go to the bathroom as a team like grown adults.
I'm getting a little tired for LGBT rights at the moment the world kinda has bigger fish to fry, not that I'm against their rights at all it's just it really should be a background thing and not thrust to the foreground.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;52223413]Wait, are rape crisis centers woman only?[/QUOTE]
All domestic violence shelters but one in the world are female only, including staff and visitors. All based on the Duluth model, which is blatantly "men are all tyrancal oppressors" style bullshit. It goes on at length about how men use their male privileged as a tool of control over women. I've read it, and at no point does it even entertain the idea that women can abuse their husband in any capacity, despite the fact that women are more likely to physically attack (albiet not harm, for obvious reasons) their partner. [URL="https://www.theduluthmodel.org/product-category/booksmanuals/"]The entire thing is predicated on the assumption that men are always the offender, and women are always the victim[/URL]. And this is the model all north american courts use, and since a majority of shelters are state backed, why would you put up shelters to house the abusers? It's a fucking shitshow, and you can imagine the sort of people who crafted it.
[video=youtube;jnUwxxijr3g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnUwxxijr3g[/video]
Erin here was the person who started the first shelters in the '60's, which were for men and women and their children. Somewhere in this talk she talks about how the really resentful types took over and basically turned them all into male exclusion zones. And how that comes at a great expense to the actual children. She had male helpers to play with the kids, which she claimed would take severely damaged children and turn them right around because they'd simply never had proper parental figures before. If she's telling the truth, feminism has really been under the thumb of extraordinarily horrible people for a long time.
[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;52223432]Oh grow a goddamn spine and stop making up bullshit to cover your insecurities. This bill won't undermine jackshit, but will serve as a very important protection against a group that's already heavily discriminated against just for existing. Your ignorance and insecurities aren't going to change why this bill is necessary.[/QUOTE]
>when you're so feminist you're a male supremacist
Also holy fuck, all the issues to raise over C-16 and this is what makes it to the front page.
[video]https://youtu.be/KnIAAkSNtqo[/video]
Watch and be horrified. State mandated compelled speech and a fundie social constructionist dogma has been passed into law in canada. Doubleplus un-good, comrade.
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