[QUOTE]"Having a second vote, or a vote to second-guess the will of the British people is not an acceptable way forward."
[/QUOTE]
So normally when a conservative government are elected the labour lot will still be represented, and vice versa, because of MPs and because the new party's policies will still in some way represent some views of the labour lot. But Brexit is binary, so the high 40 odd percent that voted Remain are going 100% unrepresented. Democracy isn't supposed to quite work that way. I get it, but it seems wrong.
Basically "the will of the British people" is a really fucking terrible way of putting anything. This is the will of some British people but also largely the nightmare of a lot of other British people. Electing a leader is different because it's not a do or don't decision and it's also a temporary decision whilst leaving isn't something we can simply reverse (though remaining is something we can decide against later).
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51183870]Because he's mad that his side lost the vote.[/QUOTE]
I like how you make him being passionate about a decision that is going to negatively affect his country for years to come out to be a bad thing.
[editline]11th October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51184754]An abstract nation has the right to self determination but actual voting people don't?[/QUOTE]
The fuck is that supposed to mean? Are the people of Scotland not actual voting people? Abstract Nation? And in general what the hell is this question supposed to prove? Of course the people of both Scotland and the UK as a whole have the right to self-determination, that's not what's in question here.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;51183923]"The People" voted to recommend Brexit to the Commons. Not to actually leave the EU right there and then. Referendums are rarely totally legally binding because we know direct democracy is a fucking joke of a system. It's only because of the cunts in power that people are insisting that this is totally a 100% legally binding referendum and "WE'RE GOIN TO TAKE BAKE CONTOLL!!".
There's a reason we vote representatives in as MPs and MEPs, the public are nowhere near educated enough to actually decide on foreign and domestic policy for the entire union on a policy-by-policy basis. It's too much for Steve in Greggs to educate themselves on reasonably.[/QUOTE]
except that your logic is flawed in assuming that politicians are actually educated on the issues :v:
[QUOTE=space1;51190981]except that your logic is flawed in assuming that politicians are actually educated on the issues :v:[/QUOTE]
(hint: Politicians usually do actually understand the issues, they just put on a show of not knowing because it helps what they are attempting to do)
[QUOTE=space1;51190981]except that your logic is flawed in assuming that politicians are actually educated on the issues :v:[/QUOTE]
Yeah what the fuck do politicians know compared to [B]real [/B]people.
The same people who googled "What is the EU" en masse days after the Brexit vote :v:
[QUOTE=Meester;51190654]Lol at all these butthurt liberal lefties and their idle dreams of elitist oppression.
You have a lot in common with the Khymer Rouge.[/QUOTE]
The Khmer Rouge killed millions of people to rid Cambodia of educated elites who they suspected of controlling the country, and all those who collaborated with them, so when you accuse your countrymen of being toadies for elitist oppressors, you're chasing the same demons and using the same rhetoric as the Khmer Rouge themselves.
Really makes you think.
[QUOTE=Meester;51190654]Lol at all these butthurt liberal lefties and their idle dreams of elitist oppression.
You have a lot in common with the Khymer Rouge.[/QUOTE]
Oh sod off back to /pol/ you tory shill.
It's not the "lefties" who are dismantling welfare and social programs for people who need it most (disabled, people who are genuinely looking for work), defunding and trying to sell off parts of the NHS and make conditions hellish for staff so privatisation looks like the better option, leaving local police forces so hobbled that some areas have only 2-3 officers covering them (yes, this is from the mouth of a PC I spoke with), raising university fees to the point that only those who're well-off or willing to get saddled with debt can afford to study and rolling back our educational system to the 1960s. We're not the ones who appointed some imbecile with no educational experience as the secretary of education.
Your "side" has more in common with the Khmer Rouge than liberals ever had. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the same imbecilic journalist I mentioned earlier who stated "This country has had enough of experts" as though he had any right to comment on the matter. That's straight up anti-intellectualism along with all the "HURR BRITAIN WILL BE FREE LETS BELIEVE EVERYTHING THIS AUSTRALIAN TWAT TELLS US TO IN THE PAPERS" sentiment which is characteristic of the Khmer Rouge you compare liberals to.
Had enough of experts was Gove, the former minister for education and minister for justice.
Anyway, people voted brexit on the terms of:
-free market access
-no immigration
-increased government funding for the NHS and other public services
-no money going to Brussels
Which is an issue because I doubt hard brexit would have come close a win. People voted for fantasy brexit not this.
[URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/11/revealed-hard-brexit-will-cost-britain-66billion-per-year/"]hard brexit will cost £66bn[/URL]
[QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;51192059][URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/11/revealed-hard-brexit-will-cost-britain-66billion-per-year/"]hard brexit will cost £66bn[/URL][/QUOTE]
And that money will be ripped out of the NHS and public funding, with a sprinkling of higher taxes for all
[QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;51192059][URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/11/revealed-hard-brexit-will-cost-britain-66billion-per-year/"]hard brexit will cost £66bn[/URL][/QUOTE]
uh no i think you find that [I]nobody knows[/I] what is going to happen if we brexit so we might as well do it
[QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;51192059][URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/11/revealed-hard-brexit-will-cost-britain-66billion-per-year/"]hard brexit will cost £66bn[/URL][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Brexit backers who have seen the documents told the newspaper the figures were unrealistic and claimed there was a push to "make leaving the single market look bad".[/QUOTE]
[I]Why should we listen to the so called experts when all they spread is fearmongering facts, we should stop listening to these so called experts and listen to the people who have no idea what they're doing.[/I]
I think you'll find even the experts aren't going to know for sure what will happen with a brexit, what you can do however is take their predictions and stand them up against what the public predicts might happen. Meanwhilst, the MET is still unable to predict what the weather might be like beyond 5 days time. We just don't know until it really happens. It could either be spinned into some kind of fearmongering or it could be the best thing since sliced bread. We just won't know until it happens.
PM: "we've nailed our dick to the board, now we should give it a good hard tug"
[QUOTE=Hamaflavian;51191654]The Khmer Rouge killed millions of people to rid Cambodia of educated elites who they suspected of controlling the country, and all those who collaborated with them, so when you accuse your countrymen of being toadies for elitist oppressors, you're chasing the same demons and using the same rhetoric as the Khmer Rouge themselves.
Really makes you think.[/QUOTE]
it's really arrogant to conflate educated elites with leftists
[QUOTE=Turnips5;51193786]PM: "we've nailed our dick to the board, now we should give it a good hard tug"[/QUOTE]
More like: "We've nailed our dick to the board, now we should think carefully about how we remove the nail before we try anything"
[QUOTE=Chopstick;51193754]I think you'll find even the experts aren't going to know for sure what will happen with a brexit, what you can do however is take their predictions and stand them up against what the public predicts might happen. Meanwhilst, the MET is still unable to predict what the weather might be like beyond 5 days time. We just don't know until it really happens. It could either be spinned into some kind of fearmongering or it could be the best thing since sliced bread. We just won't know until it happens.[/QUOTE]
What the experts give you is a likely outcome based on quite a large knowledge base and understanding of economics, which whilst not anywhere near certain, it is far more useful than random predictions by the public. We don't have the ability to predict the post brexit weather but we're pretty good at predicting the climate.
[QUOTE=Chopstick;51193754]I think you'll find even the experts aren't going to know for sure what will happen with a brexit, what you can do however is take their predictions and stand them up against what the public predicts might happen. Meanwhilst, the MET is still unable to predict what the weather might be like beyond 5 days time. We just don't know until it really happens. It could either be spinned into some kind of fearmongering or it could be the best thing since sliced bread. We just won't know until it happens.[/QUOTE]
"what the public predicts" is largely meaningless when we have oodles upon crates of statistics and models from various schools of economic thought to work with.
We [I]can[/I] create a likely outcome as a prediction without asking Frank from the Kwik-Fit what he thinks because we have a history of our country's economy, and we have knowledge of our current trade deals. Using some modelling tools we can plug values in for potential trade agreements, dick around a bit with some values here and there for various levels of uncertainty and provide a number of potential outcomes.
We don't need to "wait until it happens" to have a good idea of what the outcome will be. We shouldn't make legislative decisions with the approach of "eh we'll see what happens when we do it", we should work with predictive technologies beforehand and see if the legislation will actually benefit us at all (Brexit, even now when we haven't left the EU, hasn't shown any hint of real benefits, so most reasonable humans would spend more time researching it rather than just diving in bellend first like the Tories are insisting we do).
[editline]13th October 2016[/editline]
Also comparing economic prediction to the weather is kinda laughable. The weather is impacted by the atmosphere, a collection of untold numbers of molecules interact and generating effects. Predicting the interactions of these things is pretty hard.
Economics is pretty predictable in comparison as we have some actual control over that.
Sure, it's important to listen to the schools of economic thought, I don't think anyone should have a bigger say than anyone else on the matter however. The brexit is really not fully supported so I don't think we should have gone through with it, it's happened however and now it's probably a good idea to ask what everyone's predictions are so we can see how they think it affects them compared to what actually happens when a brexit likely takes place. Don't get me wrong, the economics are very important to making a good decision but to think that economics is the only reason we should have even considered a brexit in the first place is absolutely daft, there's a host of other potential reasons that must have led to the reason we're in one in the first place.
A lot of it could be that we received a lot of protest votes, the fact that it was done in the first place almost tell that there must be something at heart wrong with the EU in general - not that I know what it is, so if you'd like to inform the public (well facepunch) about what you think the outcome would be then let us know because frankly my opinion on it is that things will be the same but with being a little less closer to the EU than we are now.
Which is why I am saying that it's so hard to predict what will happen. I mean there's likely to be people taking bets on this kind of thing happening because it's so hard to predict what will happen.
[QUOTE=Chopstick;51198753]Sure, it's important to listen to the schools of economic thought, I don't think anyone should have a bigger say than anyone else on the matter however. The brexit is really not fully supported so I don't think we should have gone through with it, it's happened however and now it's probably a good idea to ask what everyone's predictions are so we can see how they think it affects them compared to what actually happens when a brexit likely takes place. Don't get me wrong, the economics are very important to making a good decision but to think that economics is the only reason we should have even considered a brexit in the first place is absolutely daft, there's a host of other potential reasons that must have led to the reason we're in one in the first place.[/QUOTE]
And you trust the general public to be more informed about those other reasons than they are about economics? Why?
[QUOTE]A lot of it could be that we received a lot of protest votes, the fact that it was done in the first place almost tell that there must be something at heart wrong with the EU in general[/QUOTE]
More like something wrong with the UK.
I trust our general public on the same level as the school of economic thought, the difference here is that in a democracy we listen to everyone's concerns and we actually gave everyone a vote to decide upon a Brexit, the school of economic thought does not hold more voting power and has failed in it's task to inform our public of the economic cost in that respect, despite that there were other forces at play here as to why we have such a thin line between leaving and staying.
I think it's dangerous to just ignore what our public wants, I still don't believe any of us really wanted to leave the EU and it's all in negotations so instantly telling us that we should all just listen to the school of economics is very short sighted, losing a scope of other reasons and lastly you should think more carefully about the reasons we're having a brexit.
[QUOTE=Chopstick;51206259]I trust our general public on the same level as the school of economic thought, the difference here is that in a democracy we listen to everyone's concerns and we actually gave everyone a vote to decide upon a Brexit, the school of economic thought does not hold more voting power and [B]has failed in it's task to inform our public of the economic cost in that respect,[/B] despite that there were other forces at play here as to why we have such a thin line between leaving and staying.[/QUOTE]
But they did? The issue was that the public didn't want to be informed, they subscribed to populists' discourses and disregarded experts' opinions. How do you trust voters who were so uninformed about the choice they were making that they ended up googling "what's the EU?" en masse after the referendum on the same level as those who actually do research and want to learn about the pros and cons of the decision? The latter are not limited to the school of economic thought, by the way.
[QUOTE]I think it's dangerous to just ignore what our public wants, I still don't believe any of us really wanted to leave the EU and it's all in negotations so instantly telling us that we should all just listen to the school of economics is very short sighted, losing a scope of other reasons and lastly [B]you should think more carefully about the reasons we're having a brexit.[/B][/QUOTE]
And what are those, exactly? The UK wanted to join the EU for years, then once in kept asking for preferential treatment, and despite getting it ends up wanting to leave anyway?
The public doesn't seem to know what they want in the first place, they just need a scapegoat to blame all their problems on, whether it's the immigrants, the EU, or the government.
I still hold trust in our public's decision of the situation, it wasn't just economic reasoning like you keep reiterating here. We're getting steadily worse in terms of wealth disparity here, being young isn't exactly a nice situation to be in and people who are retired are also seeing cuts to their social care. We've got companies and corporations that would rather see their taxes cut and pay less money to workers through very cheeky apprenticeship schemes given to people fresh out of school for such things as "shelf stacking", "sandwich crafting" or "barista" as though they'll one day learn something from this in an apprenticeship only to find it's a revolving door of young people to keep their wages down. Oh let's also not forget about the migrant crisis because of the war in Syria, so that means even more of our young have to go and die in the middle east which we care nothing for and want nothing to do with. I don't pretend to apologise for saying this because these are all valid reasons for potentially wanting to end a union with the EU, we did not want to partake in these situations continuing and saw it as a chance to perhaps shake up the leadership here - which technically it has done a good job as we no longer have David leading over us and the austerity measures are slowing down although have not stopped yet.
I think our public should be given more credit over it's decision, there was clearly a moment at work where most of our hearts sank the day following the decision to leave the EU and it was more because of how worried we were that our livelihoods were about to change due to being completely in the dark about how the situation would affect all of us, I've yet to see anything worse than the pound being devalued and now a decision to put through article 50 in March 2017, which by my reckoning means that in 2019 we've officially left the EU but that's if that even goes as planned which is what I am saying none of us even know if that will happen.
If you really need more reasons to find out why we voted to leave beyond "You were all misinformed about how staying in the EU will lead to greatness" then you need to find them out for yourself, I have given my reason as above for why I trust our publics decision and can't see a problem with that but am more anxious to find out what everyone's predictions will be on how it turns out in reality than going off a few words. Our public would want nothing more than to know just what the heck is going on.
Still waiting on that £350 million a week for the NHS
[QUOTE=Chopstick;51211413]I still hold trust in our public's decision of the situation, it wasn't just economic reasoning like you keep reiterating here. We're getting steadily worse in terms of wealth disparity here, being young isn't exactly a nice situation to be in and people who are retired are also seeing cuts to their social care. We've got companies and corporations that would rather see their taxes cut and pay less money to workers through very cheeky apprenticeship schemes given to people fresh out of school for such things as "shelf stacking", "sandwich crafting" or "barista" as though they'll one day learn something from this in an apprenticeship only to find it's a revolving door of young people to keep their wages down.[/QUOTE]
How is any of this the result of being in the EU? Corporate hegemony happens on a global scale and I don't know of many western countries that don't face the problems you're mentioning.
[QUOTE]Oh let's also not forget about the migrant crisis because of the war in Syria, so that means even more of our young have to go and die in the middle east which we care nothing for and want nothing to do with.[/QUOTE]
Not all EU members are part of the Coalition so it seems the UK as a country [I]does[/I] want to take part in this war, not sure what you're getting at or what that has to do with the EU.
[QUOTE]I don't pretend to apologise for saying this because these are all valid reasons for potentially wanting to end a union with the EU, we did not want to partake in these situations continuing and saw it as a chance to perhaps shake up the leadership here - which technically it has done a good job as we no longer have David leading over us and the austerity measures are slowing down although have not stopped yet.[/QUOTE]
How ironic. The leadership you commend pro-leavers for shaking up was put in place through the very same process of direct democracy you claim is trustworthy. The public's poor judgement is the origin of most of the ills the UK seems to suffer due to austerity, yet all of those get blamed on the EU by the same people who brought them on themselves to begin with.
[QUOTE]I think our public should be given more credit over it's decision, there was clearly a moment at work where most of our hearts sank the day following the decision to leave the EU and it was more because of how worried we were that our livelihoods were about to change due to being completely in the dark about how the situation would affect all of us, I've yet to see anything worse than the pound being devalued and now a decision to put through article 50 in March 2017, which by my reckoning means that in 2019 we've officially left the EU but that's if that even goes as planned which is what I am saying none of us even know if that will happen.[/QUOTE]
Of course you've yet to see anything worse happen, considering you haven't even left yet. I guess you won't be worried as long as the majority of the UK's population keep on reassuring themselves into thinking they won't be affected. The sad part is, the parts of the opposite minority, whose career prospects and livelihood directly depend on being part of the EU, aren't part of that mindset, yet they are the ones who will be most affected. Despite what you seem to think, reality isn't governed by the majority's beliefs.
[QUOTE]If you really need more reasons to find out why we voted to leave beyond "You were all misinformed about how staying in the EU will lead to greatness" then you need to find them out for yourself, I have given my reason as above for why I trust our publics decision and can't see a problem with that but am more anxious to find out what everyone's predictions will be on how it turns out in reality than going off a few words. [B]Our public would want nothing more than to know just what the heck is going on.[/B][/QUOTE]
No they don't, in fact considering the majority of them voted based on the leave campaign's bullshit they seem more than satisfied to revel in their ignorance. That's the case with you, too. If you really wanted to be informed you wouldn't naively believe that every voter is equally trustworthy regardless of their knowledgeability and actually try to listen to what people who are knowledgeable on the subject have to say instead of pretending "we don't know what's going to happen so it is exactly as likely to turn out fine as it is to turn out bad".
What I can gather from your post is that, you have no idea what I am thinking. You believe I support the brexit (I want us to remain), you presume that staying in the EU is going to help us stay out of corporate hegemony as a global scale problem (sure it won't help us much other than being able to decide our own rules on how to deal with it), alright perhaps you are correct about the war in Syria but we don't get to vote on wars and our government decided that one for us so about all the support they're getting from me is whatever they decide to divide my taxes up for and frankly I would still rather we weren't at war because that means our youth is potentially dying in a far flung war none of us even care to know what's going on along with more money being thrown down the drain economically on refugees and bombs.
Let's see you're also presuming that I am not worried because nothing bad has happened yet - guess what I still won't care 20 years from now because I plan on staying in the UK long term so either way you're going to have to do more to make me quake in fear from a brexit, in reality if the government decides to do something we don't agree with we tend to protest it and if the majority gets into unrest then that will usually mean the politics governing us change as well which is a part of democracy because you have to listen to everyone so despite what you think our democracy is you're wrong and it is indeed rule by majority because we listen to every voice we can in order to make the best decision and gain our own autonomy on how to do things.
Lastly, you claim I am ignorant of the situation when nothing else seems to be more interesting right now than finding out how the brexit will affect the short term future of the UK and the EU but I guess I am just ignorant and you're the omniscient person who knows exactly what I am thinking and doing right now.
Never pretended that staying in the EU would shield you from corporate hegemony, I just said it was irrelevant.
The problem is not the government doing things the majority doesn't want. The majority wanted austerity, otherwise they wouldn't have voted for those who enforced it. They want Brexit otherwise they wouldn't have voted in its favour.
The problem is what the majority wants when what they want undermines themselves. It is commendable to want to listen to everybody, but what people say don't always make sense.
I claim that you don't want to be informed based on your insistance that any prediction is pointless because we ultimately don't know how things will turn out. We might not know exactly what would happen, that doesn't stop us from being certain about some things, like the fact there's no way you will be able to negociate a better trade deal with the EU than the one you had when you were within it.
I'd say your point would be like saying that we don't know whether global warming will happen because lots of people don't believe it will, nevermind the fact that these people don't know anything about climate and the large majority of the scientific community say they are wrong.
[QUOTE=_Axel;51212061]Never pretended that staying in the EU would shield you from corporate hegemony, I just said it was irrelevant.
The problem is not the government doing things the majority doesn't want. The majority wanted austerity, otherwise they wouldn't have voted for those who enforced it. They want Brexit otherwise they wouldn't have voted in its favour.
The problem is what the majority wants when what they want undermines themselves. It is commendable to want to listen to everybody, but what people say don't always make sense.
I claim that you don't want to be informed based on your insistance that any prediction is pointless because we ultimately don't know how things will turn out. We might not know exactly what would happen, that doesn't stop us from being certain about some things, like the fact there's no way you will be able to negociate a better trade deal with the EU than the one you had when you were within it.
I'd say your point would be like saying that we don't know whether global warming will happen because lots of people don't believe it will, nevermind the fact that these people don't know anything about climate and the large majority of the scientific community say they are wrong.[/QUOTE]
I tend to not bother with these threads anymore casue it's litterally the same old shit but fuck it, The Conservative party got into power of the UK with less than 36% of the entire UK voting for them , when you factor in the 35% of the nation that never bothered to vote that means 11 million people out of sixty fucking 4 million voted Tory, and because the major opposition partys went to shit and lost votes to everyone or no one. The Tories bloody won. Almost 3/4's of us barely represented, if at all.
Telling us, we got what we wanted in the GE is bollocks quiet frankly, and Brexit ows alot to the result of that vote, i'd argue the 2010 election started that ball rolling myself but i don't want to go down the rabbit hole any further.
People don't always know what's best for them in the big picture, and they have little influence to control it when they do know what they want. Which is in essence the entire reason political parties exist and why they have their own manifestos and policies and so forth.
With the EU it was an easy scapegoat for the media to blame for the failings of our country on. Money problems? Blame EU. Immigrants? Blame EU. Etcetera. The British people have been conditioned to dislike the EU for a good ten years or so with racist fear mongering and other subtle nuances by the media. And those that are pro-eu were run by the same people as e anti-eu ones.
Political parties used the EU and the problems "the EU caused" as an election promise a lot of the time. The problem is with our government and our politics and though the EU is hardly perfect, little education about it here has proved to be the reason the leave campaign was successful.
[QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;51183821]The call was for a vote on the terms of exit - if the Commons doesn't think the deal is worth it, they're well within their rights to reject it. It's either that or hand it to the people, who have already demonstrated they don't know or care about economics. What right does the Prime Minister have to force an unfavourable treaty on the country? This is absolutely a matter for Parliament.
If the deal isn't satisfactory, then Brexit can't go through - what message does it send to the EU that we're basically going to have to accept any deal they give us? Am I misunderstanding something?[/QUOTE]
The thing is, the deal only happens after the articles are invoked. Prior to that, there's no deal on the table. After the articles are invoked, you can't actually weasel out. There is either a deal exit or a nondeal exit.
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