House Republicans' New Spending Bill Calls For 1-Year Delay On ObamaCare
90 replies, posted
[QUOTE='[sluggo];42340825']Republicans can be blamed for the shutdown, but the alternative is to avoid taking a stand and allow continued spending and obamacare, and then they would be branded sellouts and criticized for not standing up for their beliefs. Facepunch would hate them either way.[/QUOTE]
House Republicans are taking a stand on spending and healthcare in much the same way that a 5 year old makes a stand in the grocery store when he doesn't get the candy he wants.
ban republicans and instate a one party system
tbh tho I would rather ban both parties and create a slew of new ones that people get to choose from based on their respective views, with them having no ties to the previous parties and are not allowed to take campaign funds from corporate sources.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;42340885]House Republicans are taking a stand on spending and healthcare in much the same way that a 5 year old makes a stand in the grocery store when he doesn't get the candy he wants.[/QUOTE]
How else do they take a stand? Democrats won't agree to any changes, and any spending cuts they do agree to will be minuscule.
[QUOTE=sgman91;42340869]Reid has already said he won't accept any change, at all.[/QUOTE]
Still, that hardly justifies going to the extreme of throwing it out altogether. If the Dems are hard to give any ground on augmenting it, what makes Republicans thinking tossing the whole thing will make it any better?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42340679]Kind of hard to not blame the Republicans when it was a Republican sponsored bill :v:[/QUOTE]
I know. There are just those who believe that Obama and the Democrats are also somehow to blame for this.
I do not understand it.
[QUOTE=lifehole;42340893]ban republicans and instate a one party system
tbh tho I would rather ban both parties and create a slew of new ones that people get to choose from based on their respective views, with them having no ties to the previous parties and are not allowed to take campaign funds from corporate sources.[/QUOTE]
Don't need to ban the GOP at this rate. They are going to lose Texas in 8 years and are constantly on the edge of splintering between a more "moderate" (still noticeably right) party and a far-right fringe party that is currently referred to as the tea party.
If recent years show anything, it's that the Republicans could burn a city down with a giant neon sign that says "haha you voted us in what now" and the American public would remain completely apathetic.
[QUOTE=person11;42340950]I know. There are just those who believe that Obama and the Democrats are also somehow to blame for this.
I do not understand it.[/QUOTE]
I think the reasoning is that Obama and the Democrats pushed Republicans towards these extreme by making the ACA off limits and Republicans are just trying to score a victory.
Because partisan politics > functioning government when Obama is in the white house.
[QUOTE='[sluggo];42340898']How else do they take a stand? Democrats won't agree to any changes, and any spending cuts they do agree to will be minuscule.[/QUOTE]
The only winning move was not to play. Now the Republicans are going to take the blame squarely if we hit the deadline and the government shuts down because of Cruz's idiotic stunt.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42340899]Still, that hardly justifies going to the extreme of throwing it out altogether. If the Dems are hard to give any ground on augmenting it, what makes Republicans thinking tossing the whole thing will make it any better?[/QUOTE]
My point is that this is the fault of both parties. No one wants to budge. The democrats are stonewalling any change and the republicans are stonewalling the status quo.
Republicans are going to take blame because the media presents it that way. If people knew how uncompromising the democrats are they would hold a much larger part of the blame then they do now.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;42340992]I think the reasoning is that Obama and the Democrats pushed Republicans towards these extreme by making the ACA off limits and Republicans are just trying to score a victory.
Because partisan politics > functioning government when Obama is in the white house. [/QUOTE]
That is such flawed reasoning though! I really don't get how people think that. The ACA was the millionth revised version of Obamacare to get to Congress. The original was practically Public Healthcare, and the version Republicans and a couple Democrats forced Obama to use was a rehash of Newt Gingrich's healthcare bill from the early 90s.
Republicans saying that the ACA is terrible and leftist is hilarious and sad, and the idea that Obama evilly pushed it through without Republican input is laughable and false.
Anybody who could defend Republicans right now or blame Democrats for this have no legs to stand on.
[QUOTE=person11;42341047]That is such flawed reasoning though! I really don't get how people think that. The ACA was the millionth revised version of Obamacare to get to Congress. The original was practically Public Healthcare, and the version Republicans and a couple Democrats forced Obama to use was a rehash of Newt Gingrich's healthcare bill from the early 90s.
Republicans saying that the ACA is terrible and leftist is hilarious and sad, and the idea that Obama evilly pushed it through without Republican input is laughable and false.
Anybody who could defend Republicans right now or blame Democrats for this have no legs to stand on.[/QUOTE]
Not a single republican voted for it. That's literally the definition of being partisan.
They changed it because they were having a hell of a time even getting democrats to vote for it. There was no intention of getting any republican approval.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;42340954]Don't need to ban the GOP at this rate. They are going to lose Texas in 8 years and are constantly on the edge of splintering between a more "moderate" (still noticeably right) party and a far-right fringe party that is currently referred to as the tea party.[/QUOTE]
Texas not Republican? That's incredibly hard for me to imagine
[QUOTE=sgman91;42341075]Not a single republican voted for it. That's literally the definition of being partisan.
They changed it because they were having a hell of a time even getting democrats to vote for it. There was no intention of getting any republican approval.[/QUOTE]
And they decided not to vote for it because they were genuinely concerned about how the country's healthcare system...
Obama was hoping to get some Republican votes in addition to the last Democrat holdouts by turning his bill into a Republican one. I am sure he was at least somewhat surprised no Republican voted for it.
[editline]28th September 2013[/editline]
It is amazing how one can talk about Republican obstructionism, and then turn around and use the fact Republicans did not vote for something as evidence Obama is an evil partisan.
[QUOTE=person11;42341128]And they decided not to vote for it because they were genuinely concerned about how the country's healthcare system...
Obama was hoping to get some Republican votes in addition to the last Democrat holdouts by turning his bill into a Republican one. I am sure he was at least somewhat surprised no Republican voted for it.[/QUOTE]
No one who paid attention was surprised that not a single republican voted for it... the question was weather even the democrats would vote for it.
[QUOTE=sgman91;42341031]My point is that this is the fault of both parties. No one wants to budge. The democrats are stonewalling any change and the republicans are stonewalling the status quo.
Republicans are going to take blame because the media presents it that way. If people knew how uncompromising the democrats are they would hold a much larger part of the blame then they do now.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't take a whole lot of media manipulation (I'm sure Fox News is standing with the Democrats!) to make this look like anything but the Republicans holding the federal government hostage so they can tear down Obamacare.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;42341020]To be fair, if the dems would have listened to republicans while they were drafting ACA, this probably wouldnt happen. They rushed it through with very little compromise and just said "lol super majority, fucking deal with it fgts"[/QUOTE]
Yeah that's what happens when you win elections in a representative democracy. You get to push policies you support because the people who put you in office supported those policies and not the policies of those other guys. Republicans should come to terms with the fact that they lost that battle 3 years ago and find something else to cut until they have more of a presence in Congress (god forbid)
It is still strange how Republicans changed their minds about how they wanted to implement healthcare reform right when Obama proposed the same thing they wanted.
It is also strange how they had absolutely no will to debate reasonably. The fact that people expected Republicans to vote for anything proposed by the President is a bad enough sign.
How could Obama have possibly compromised more than he did? If he moved Obamacare further to the right, it would have been no reform at all.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42341090]Texas not Republican? That's incredibly hard for me to imagine[/QUOTE]
8 years is optimistic but the demographics are constantly shifting in Democrats favor until Republicans feel like standing up for the Hispanic vote in any capacity.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;42341177]It doesn't take a whole lot of media manipulation to make this look like anything but the Republicans holding the federal government hostage so they can tear down Obamacare.[/QUOTE]
Against the fact that Democrats completely ignored almost half the countries opinions to force pass their own bill. As it stands the public is against Obamacare. ([URL]http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html[/URL])
[QUOTE](I'm sure Fox News is standing with the Democrats!)[/QUOTE]
Fox is nothing when compared to the non-cable news networks.
[QUOTE]Yeah that's what happens when you win elections in a representative democracy. You get to push policies you support because the people who put you in office supported those policies and not the policies of those other guys. [/QUOTE]
The public has always been more against Obamacare than for it. (Refer to the graph on the last citation). So, no, the democrats weren't giving the people what they want.
[editline]28th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=person11;42341180]It is still strange how Republicans changed their minds about how they wanted to implement healthcare reform right when Obama proposed the same thing they wanted.
It is also strange how they had absolutely no will to debate reasonably. The fact that people expected Republicans to vote for anything proposed by the President is a bad enough sign.
How could Obama have possibly compromised more than he did? If he moved Obamacare further to the right, it would have been no reform at all.[/QUOTE]
HE MOVED IT TO GET DEMOCRAT VOTES! He barely got the support of some of the democrats with the bill that was passed.
[QUOTE=sgman91;42341214]Against the fact that Democrats completely ignored almost half the countries opinions to force pass their own bill. As it stands the public is against Obamacare. ([URL]http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html[/URL])
Fox is nothing when compared to the non-cable news networks.
The public has always been more against Obamacare than for it. (Refer to the graph on the last citation).
[editline]28th September 2013[/editline]
HE MOVED IT TO GET DEMOCRAT VOTES! He barely got the support of some of the democrats with the bill that was passed.[/QUOTE]
If it was tough for the Democrats to even pass this, then I'm curious to why they're so unified in preventing it from being dissolved.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42341230]If it was tough for the Democrats to even pass this, then I'm curious to why they're so unified in preventing it from being dissolved.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. It's a fact that we didn't know if the bill would pass until after the count of the vote because there were some democrats who weren't fully on board.
Ironically, some democrats voted to defund Obamacare making the defunding effort more bipartisan than the passing of it.
[QUOTE=sgman91;42341214]Against the fact that Democrats completely ignored almost half the countries opinions to force pass their own bill. As it stands the public is against Obamacare. ([URL]http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html[/URL])[/QUOTE]
The only reason poll results are even that close is because the vast majority of people don't understand exactly what the ACA does because it's a massive set of regulatory reform that can't be summed up as a talking point. In fact the only thing that has come out in digestible form is the mandate, which is only one small, admittedly unpopular part of it. And far less people support repealing it now of all times. Even other Republicans are upset with Cruz and tea partiers over their increasingly-fringe legislative attempts.
[QUOTE=sgman91;42341214]Fox is nothing when compared to the non-cable news networks.[/QUOTE]
Ah yes, the most-watched news network in the country has nothing on the shadowy cabal of [B]liberal media. [/B]
Give me a break.
[editline]28th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=sgman91;42341250]
Ironically, some democrats voted to defund Obamacare making the defunding effort more bipartisan than the passing of it.[/QUOTE]
Bipartisanship is overrated.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;42341286]The only reason poll results are even that close is because the vast majority of people don't understand exactly what the ACA does because it's a massive set of regulatory reform that can't be summed up as a talking point. In fact the only thing that has come out in digestible form is the mandate, which is only one small, admittedly unpopular part of it. And far less people support repealing it now of all times. Even other Republicans are upset with Cruz and tea partiers over their increasingly-fringe legislative attempts.[/QUOTE]
You claimed that republican have to deal with what the democrats are doing because people voted them in to do it, but now you're arguing that the people don't know what is going on. So which is it?
[QUOTE]Ah yes, the most-watched [B]cable[/B] news network in the country has nothing on the shadowy cabal of liberal media. [/QUOTE]
Fixed that for you. The majority of people don't watch cable news.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;42341286]The only reason poll results are even that close is because the vast majority of people don't understand exactly what the ACA does because it's a massive set of regulatory reform that can't be summed up as a talking point. In fact the only thing that has come out in digestible form is the mandate, which is only one small, admittedly unpopular part of it. And far less people support repealing it now of all times. Even other Republicans are upset with Cruz and tea partiers over their increasingly-fringe legislative attempts. [/QUOTE]
Is there a source that most people don't understand it?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42341455]Is there a source that most people don't understand it?[/QUOTE]
In fact, the opposition to the bill has gotten stronger rather then weaker over the past year, which seems to say that the more people understand the less they like it.
How do you know people are understanding it more than before.
Just like in the 2010 elections, Republicans are lying about Obamacare to the point that even the not frothing Republican people are getting skeptical about a bill they once supported.
Public Opinion can easily change without their learning anything, within a few points. It is the first rule of big picture politics.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42341455]Is there a source that most people don't understand it?[/QUOTE]
Sensationalist Headlines threads about it.
[editline]29th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=person11;42341645]How do you know people are understanding it more than before.
Just like in the 2010 elections, Republicans are lying about Obamacare to the point that even the not frothing Republican people are getting skeptical about a bill they once supported.
Public Opinion can easily change without their learning anything, within a few points. It is the first rule of big picture politics.[/QUOTE]
Add to this the fact that the only thing that gets talked about is the fucking mandate and it stands to reason that the bill as a whole might become unpopular even though people support the individual elements.
All people hear is "The governments going to make you buy health insurance even though you are poor". They don't hear about guaranteed issue of coverage regardless of pre-existing conditions, or new standards that allow children to be on their parents plan, or the subsidy to low-income families.
Republicans and conservative media (with the help of Democrats not being entirely helpful either) has succeeded in shifting the conversation about the ACA to the only part that most people don't like and then use the resulting poll numbers to defend their attempts to tear the whole thing down.
[editline]29th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=sgman91;42341435]You claimed that republican have to deal with what the democrats are doing because people voted them in to do it, but now you're arguing that the people don't know what is going on. So which is it?[/QUOTE]
I don't see why it can't be both.
[QUOTE=sgman91;42341435]Fixed that for you. The majority of people don't watch cable news.[/QUOTE]
It's still an absurd amount of influence
[editline]29th September 2013[/editline]
I'll concede that, hypothetically, if the Republicans wanted to scrap the the mandate part of the bill in an attempt to cut spending and had the backing of the American people it would be a dick move by Senate Democrats to say they aren't compromising.
Pushing through a bill to delay the ACA's effects by a full year though is by no means a compromise on the Republican's parts and I see no reason for Democrats to capitulate when most of the bills substance is well received.
Raise the debt ceiling, keep the government running, then come back with a measured response and actually compromise instead of looking like the assholes holding the US government hostage because you hate healthcare.
You know that you're just dismissing my arguments with unfounded opinion right? Do you have any proof that the dislike of the bill is based on misinformation?
[QUOTE=sgman91;42342103]You know that you're just dismissing my arguments with unfounded opinion right? Do you have any proof that the dislike of the bill is based on misinformation?[/QUOTE]
And you're of the opinion that because public support has gone down (a claim that hasn't been sourced...) this means that American's have read and understood the effects of the act and have grown against it.
As for polls supporting my opinion first NBC/WSJ
[url]http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/15/20506193-poll-obamacare-remains-highly-unpopular-as-implementation-looms?lite[/url]
[QUOTE]Still, most Americans say they don't have a good grasp of what the law entails. Thirty-four percent say they don’t understand the law very well, and another 35 percent say they understand it only “some.”
“Call any insurance company and ask them any question about the new health-care law, and they don’t understand,” said a New Jersey Republican man who opposes the law.
That's compared with [B]30 percent who understand it either "very well" or "pretty well."[/B]
NBC's Domenico Montanaro looks at the upcoming – and familiar – congressional fights on government funding, the debt ceiling, and defunding Obamacare.
As it turns out, that [B]30 percent has more positive opinions about the health-care law (42 percent good idea, 45 percent bad idea)[/B], versus the 34 percent who don't understand it very well (17 percent good idea, 44 percent bad idea).[/QUOTE]
Pew
[url]http://www.people-press.org/2013/09/16/as-health-care-law-proceeds-opposition-and-uncertainty-persist/[/url]
25% of respondents know "very well" how the law will impact them
51% of respondents don't know about the subsidy for lower income families.
Bonus: More support for making the bill work rather than trashing it.
If politicians allow a shutdown to happen they should be treated the same way employees elsewhere would if their job performance resulted in a workplace shutdown
[QUOTE=Raidyr;42342216]And you're of the opinion that because public support has gone down (a claim that hasn't been sourced...) this means that American's have read and understood the effects of the act and have grown against it.[/QUOTE]
My simple opinion is that since people say they don't like it, then they don't like it. I think that's the simplest explanation for negative poll results (that have been negative since the first day it was voted into law).
It's been sourced on this page. Here it is again: [URL]http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html[/URL]
If you look at the graph you can see very slight decline as it fell off the radar and as it comes back into focus the negatives spike back up to a higher average than they've ever been.
[QUOTE]As for polls supporting my opinion first NBC/WSJ
[URL]http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/15/20506193-poll-obamacare-remains-highly-unpopular-as-implementation-looms?lite[/URL]
Pew
[URL]http://www.people-press.org/2013/09/16/as-health-care-law-proceeds-opposition-and-uncertainty-persist/[/URL]
25% of respondents know "very well" how the law will impact them
51% of respondents don't know about the subsidy for lower income families.
Bonus: More support for making the bill work rather than trashing it.[/QUOTE]
Two points:
1) I don't care if people say they understand it or not. They would need to ask people actual questions about it to see if they understood it. Of course people who are for it are going to say they understand it better. The potential bias is obvious.
2) Having your dislike be misinformed =/= not understand the entire bill. For example, someone might think ANY bill with a personal mandate is a bad bill and it's irrelevant what the rest of the bill says. There would have to be a study asking why people don't like it compared with their knowledge to confirm that a misunderstanding is the cause of the opposition.
[editline]29th September 2013[/editline]
Also from your source: "73 percent of respondents say they're already satisfied with their coverage." That could be another massive reason people don't want another huge bureaucracy to 'fix' something that they are already satisfied with.
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