German media boss Mathias Döpfner says UK economy will grow stronger post-Brexit
54 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Firewarrior;51126460]Since this is about economics: explain how Merkel fucked up.[/QUOTE]
Although my comment was flippant and tongue in cheek.
You are just being too literal.
She made monumental mistakes regarding immigration for one.
Which she herself has admitted.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;51126652]She made monumental mistakes regarding immigration for one.
Which she herself has admitted.[/QUOTE]the thread you posted is literally about economics
[QUOTE=benzi2k7;51126658]the thread you posted is literally about economics[/QUOTE]
You see, Brexiters can't win the economic argument, but they can appeal to ignorance and xenophobia with their 'migrants are ruining everything' argument.
Despite the fact Britain hasn't taken a lot of refugees from Syria.
Despite the fact that most immigration to Britain doesn't come from the EU or through it, and instead comes from the former British Empire.
Despite the fact that emigration into Britain has benefited it quite well.
Breaking News: Someone in favour of Brexit says Brexit is a good thing, everyone is surprised.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;51126652]Although my comment was flippant and tongue in cheek.
You are just being too literal.
She made monumental mistakes regarding immigration [b]for one[/b].
Which she herself has admitted.[/QUOTE]
Ok so that's one.
Whats number two?
Is there a number two, am I being too literal?
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51126912]And what do you think the mistakes regarding "immigration" were?
Before you say "taking them in by those numbers", let me interrupt, because Merkel never said the numbers or the people they took in were the mistakes, but "The mistake, the chancellor said, was that she and her government had not been quicker to prepare for the mass movement of people triggered by conflicts in the Middle East.".
[url]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/19/angela-merkel-admits-mistakes-asylum-seekers-election[/url]
Taking in refugees in need and lessening the burden on poorer southeastern european and middle eastern countries was not a mistake.[/QUOTE]
I agree but to convince a guy like karlosfandango, if it is indeed possible, you need to not engage his reality head on. If you question it straight off you are doomed to fail.
Assume his narrative, uncover an incongruency and let him take it apart himself - like a proof by contradiction.
He's convinced that not helping refugees is the right thing to do, telling him he's wrong straight up will just make him entrench his views and remain closed to any other (very valid) points you make.
Try something like
[URL="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/31/italy-sea-mission-thousands-risk"]Refugees were [/URL] [URL="http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/european-refugee-crisis-worsens-in-mediterranean-a-964304.html"]coming into europe in 2014[/URL]
[URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/migrant-crisis-hits-europe/2014/09/09/5dd8012d-cbe0-4a8a-895a-033d5a6794f6_story.html"]so much so that italy refused to hold them all[/URL]
So based on the facts above the refugee crisis was occurring in 2014.
The assumption is that Merkel's speech in 2015 caused the refugee crisis.
...
[QUOTE=benzi2k7;51126658]the thread you posted is literally about economics[/QUOTE]
But people are now arguing the merits of Dopfner vs Merkel. My comment was regarding that.
[editline]29th September 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51126990]I agree but to convince a guy like karlosfandango, if it is indeed possible, you need to not engage his reality head on. If you question it straight off you are doomed to fail.
Assume his narrative, uncover an incongruency and let him take it apart himself - like a proof by contradiction.
He's convinced that not helping refugees is the right thing to do, telling him he's wrong straight up will just make him entrench his views and remain closed to any other (very valid) points you make.
Try something like
[URL="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/31/italy-sea-mission-thousands-risk"]Refugees were [/URL] [URL="http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/european-refugee-crisis-worsens-in-mediterranean-a-964304.html"]coming into europe in 2014[/URL]
[URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/migrant-crisis-hits-europe/2014/09/09/5dd8012d-cbe0-4a8a-895a-033d5a6794f6_story.html"]so much so that italy refused to hold them all[/URL]
So based on the facts above the refugee crisis was occurring in 2014.
The assumption is that Merkel's speech in 2015 caused the refugee crisis.
...[/QUOTE]
I am not convinced that helping refugees is the wrong thing to do just that the way it has been done so far is questionable.
With your tainted narrative you sadly assumed because I voted for the Brexit that I am a racist.
[editline]29th September 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51126912]And what do you think the mistakes regarding "immigration" were?
Before you say "taking them in by those numbers", let me interrupt, because Merkel never said the numbers or the people they took in were the mistakes, but "The mistake, the chancellor said, was that she and her government had not been quicker to prepare for the mass movement of people triggered by conflicts in the Middle East.".
[url]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/19/angela-merkel-admits-mistakes-asylum-seekers-election[/url]
Taking in refugees in need and lessening the burden on poorer southeastern european and middle eastern countries was not a mistake.[/QUOTE]
You are now asking and answering questions for me. Thank you.
lol, all of this over reaction is because you don't like a 3rd party's opinion on what he thinks will be the outcome after Brexit.
lol this thread is a trainwreck
I think it is likely the deal cut will not be more favourable than what we got within the EU, but ultimately people are wasting their breath on this issue on both sides as we don't know what will actually happen. If you're on the Remain side trying to actually prevent Brexit by predicting doom, just stop please - don't think there is a single action that could be more harmful to our democracy in the long term.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;51127033]
I am not convinced that helping refugees is the wrong thing to do just that the way it has been done so far is questionable.
[/quote]
You said in a different thread that taking refugees wasn't something we should do. Would your helping be making someone else do it? I guess you could argue we should send money to refugee camps in syria, lebanon, iran and north africa or something, it wouldn't work but it would be an alternative.
[quote]
With your tainted narrative you sadly assumed because I voted for the Brexit that I am a racist.
[/QUOTE]
Here here! You've explained plenty of times that you're not racist and that you had different reasons to vote Brexit.
I believe that you want what is best for the british people, I don't agree with all your logic and conclusions but I have friends with similar views who I don't think could accurately be described as racists.
Lots of racists and xenophobes voted for Brexit, perhaps a majority, but as everyone has said there are plenty of other opposing groups - anti establishment, anti globalisation, pro globalisation, pro (non-EU) immigration and then a bunch of people who thought the money would be spent on us and the NHS.
[editline]29th September 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51127239]lol this thread is a trainwreck
I think it is likely the deal cut will not be more favourable than what we got within the EU, but ultimately people are wasting their breath on this issue on both sides as we don't know what will actually happen. If you're on the Remain side trying to actually prevent Brexit by predicting doom, just stop please - don't think there is a single action that could be more harmful to our democracy in the long term.[/QUOTE]
I've accepted its probably going to happen. It's the wrong decision but thats what they're going to do.
I just hope they do it ASAP so the tories catch all the shitty fallout from it rather than dumping it on Labour for another generation of "labour ruined the economy". At least if they trigger article 50 today the crash will fall in the tories lap and people will flock to Labour.
If we do Brexit I'd like it to be soft. Ideally EEA perhaps with some watered down free movement thing to satisfy the frothing "get um out" crowd, something like free movement for people who have jobs secured.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51127283]You said in a different thread that taking refugees wasn't something we should do. Would your helping be making someone else do it? I guess you could argue we should send money to refugee camps in syria, lebanon, iran and north africa or something, it wouldn't work but it would be an alternative.
Here here! You've explained plenty of times that you're not racist and that you had different reasons to vote Brexit.
I believe that you want what is best for the british people, I don't agree with all your logic and conclusions but I have friends with similar views who I don't think could accurately be described as racists.
Lots of racists and xenophobes voted for Brexit, perhaps a majority, but as everyone has said there are plenty of other opposing groups - anti establishment, anti globalisation, pro globalisation, pro (non-EU) immigration and then a bunch of people who thought the money would be spent on us and the NHS.
[editline]29th September 2016[/editline]
I've accepted its probably going to happen. It's the wrong decision but thats what they're going to do.
I just hope they do it ASAP so the tories catch all the shitty fallout from it rather than dumping it on Labour for another generation of "labour ruined the economy". At least if they trigger article 50 today the crash will fall in the tories lap and people will flock to Labour.
If we do Brexit I'd like it to be soft. Ideally EEA perhaps with some watered down free movement thing to satisfy the frothing "get um out" crowd, something like free movement for people who have jobs secured.[/QUOTE]
If I am honest I probably haven't put my point across as well as I should have in the past but I also think that people on both sides of this issue are guilty of that.
I am in two minds though, I know that posts like this cause friction but I also think that I shouldn't have to not post certain things because the majority have an opposing view.
In fact it it would be pretty pointless if each thread went along the lines of "I think blah blah" and then everyone else agreed.
I regret my comment on the OP and apologise, because on hindsight it was inflammatory.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;51127033]But people are now arguing the merits of Dopfner vs Merkel. My comment was regarding that.
[editline]29th September 2016[/editline]
I am not convinced that helping refugees is the wrong thing to do just that the way it has been done so far is questionable.
With your tainted narrative you sadly assumed because I voted for the Brexit that I am a racist.
[editline]29th September 2016[/editline]
You are now asking and answering questions for me. Thank you.
lol, all of this over reaction is because you don't like a 3rd party's opinion on what he thinks will be the outcome after Brexit.[/QUOTE]
Look now as thread moves to page 2 and karlosfandango proceeds to completely ignore any of the rational economic arguments against Brexit in favor of sticking to familiar waters, the more passional arguments of migrants, immigration and independence, despite always making a thread about how "Brexit won't affect the British economy".
[QUOTE=Big Bang;51131154]Look now as thread moves to page 2 and karlosfandango proceeds to completely ignore any of the rational economic arguments against Brexit in favor of sticking to familiar waters, the more passional arguments of migrants, immigration and independence, despite always making a thread about how "Brexit won't affect the British economy".[/QUOTE]
Only like I never said I don't like migrants, I never said it wouldn't effect the economy either.
If you honestly believe that anyone can accurately predict the outcome of all of the permutations that will arise from the Brexit than you are a better man than all of us, but you crack on deluding yourself.
If you can get passed your bias you will see that I was answering questions in this thread raised by others.
for the sake of information, here's the 90 page government whitepaper about the immediate impact of leaving the EU
[URL]https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf[/URL]
and here's the 200 page government whitepaper about the long term impact of leaving the EU
[URL]https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/517415/treasury_analysis_economic_impact_of_eu_membership_web.pdf[/URL]
just as a counter-point to the whole "nobody knows what'll happen" meme which is often spouted when the economic aspect comes up because the leave side have literally nothing
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51131654]for the sake of information, here's the 90 page government whitepaper about the immediate impact of leaving the EU
[URL]https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf[/URL]
and here's the 200 page government whitepaper about the long term impact of leaving the EU
[url]https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/517415/treasury_analysis_economic_impact_of_eu_membership_web.pdf[/url][/QUOTE]
*sniff*
Smells like expert to me
I only read 200 page government whitepapers from guys I meet in the pub
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51131678]*sniff*
Smells like expert to me
I only read 200 page government whitepapers from guys I meet in the pub[/QUOTE]
government whitepapers are great and all but are they really as powerful as a long, agonising speech by boris johnson about cake
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51131692]government whitepapers are great and all but are they really as powerful as a long, agonising speech by boris johnson about cake[/QUOTE]
Is this the Government you trust so much that chose Boris Johnson as it's Foreign Secretary? :v:
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;51131714]Is this the Government you trust so much that chose Boris Johnson as it's Foreign Secretary? :v:[/QUOTE]
are you asking if i trust the treasury to understand the economy more than boris johnson
and for someone who seems to think that no one can predict the outcome, you seem more than willing to post a thread about someone predicting the outcome, funny that
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;51131714]Is this the Government you trust so much that chose Boris Johnson as it's Foreign Secretary? :v:[/QUOTE]
He said they were great for that reason.
They could be [b]really[/b] great if the entire thing was a 200 page transcription of Boris free styling it about his immigration policy.
Open door policy?
unsustainable fallacy
loss of our sovereignty?
not in this democracy
money grubbing eurocrats
Not where this country at
Free movement for us but not them
endorse my point based system
Something like that but in a posh accent and with big words scattered throughout to sound smarter
the next whitepaper the treasury is going to put out will be a 200 page recipe of the magical cake that boris johnson is going to invent and sell to france for £350,000,000 a week
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51131752]the next whitepaper the treasury is going to put out will be a 200 page recipe of the magical cake that boris johnson is going to invent and sell to france for £350,000,000 a week[/QUOTE]
A particularly dense and glutinous kind of chocolate cake, french people love it
put opium in it to help increase demand! economy solved
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51131767]A particularly dense and glutinous kind of chocolate cake, french people love it
put opium in it to help increase demand! economy solved[/QUOTE]
oi, i need that opium to forget that one of our supposed top politicans and our foreign secretary actually seriously suggested that we keep our country afloat by selling cake
It's also worth noting and sort of amusing that this Government who you have so much trust in was the same Government that gave the British public the referendum that resulted in the Brexit.
Yeah but 17 million stupid racists...
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