• Austria's far-right presidential candidate narrowly defeated
    81 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Da Big Man;50377606]So I have a serious question for Europeans. Why is it that there are so many modern parties that openly state they are Neo-Nazi or far-right fascist ultra-nationalist and tend to garner so much support in European countries like Sweden, Norway, the UK, and Germany when we live in a world where everybody is well aware through the Internet and social medias of the atrocities of WWII committed by the Nazi party from the early 20th century? I mean is it purely an extremist belief in that movement/Holocaust denial/attention seeking/all of the above? It boggles the mind how it seems that there's, at least through media, a large presence of these people with power. But who am I to say when we have Trump in the US.[/QUOTE] No party in the UK has any support which is 'neo-nazi' or 'far-right fascist ultra-nationalist'. UKIP are more left wing than your pre-Trump Republican party, to put it bluntly.
Because I know nobody will read the article I posted, I summed up some of the most concerning aspects of this party and its leaders: Just for some further context, the previous head of this party, Jorg Haider, called concentration camps "punishment camps" to suggest that those interred were guilty of crimes [i]while at a reunion of the former SS [B]in the fucking 1990s[/B][/i], at which he called the SS men in attendance "sound, decent men of principle." Beyond the past of the party, with Jorg fucking Haider the blatant nazi sympathizer who applauded the efforts of the SS, the current head of the party is not much better at all. Strache has [i]numerous[/i] photos of him doing the three-fingered salute (used to replace the banned outstretched-arm salute by neo-nazis). There is a photo of him holding a torch among a group of neo-nazis. He openly lambasted the Viennese local council's refusal to give hero status to an Austrian Luftwaffe ace, and referred to the "allied bomb terror" in that same speech. He regularly uses "Volk" terminology, and is one of the few people outside of self-identifying neo-nazis and the original nazi party to use the term "Volksgemeinschaft" in reference to a "German community of Volk, culture and common destiny." Beyond that, going to policy, Strache has called for Austria to lay claim on South Tyrol, an autonomous province of Italy's. He is against the European Union, and has called the inclusion of Turkey into the EU a "trojan horse," yet at the same time he is in favor of a pan-European identity. He is against gay marriage, and strongly in favor of traditional families - he views multiculturalism as based on the "shaky foundations" of "inexplicable social unions like gay marriage." He has "no understanding" of gay marriage. He believes that the Austrian tradition of making fun of Germans should not be allowed. The current head of this party is an [B]anti-gay-marriage religious conservative[/B] who promoted family values, believes that the Nazi occupation of Vienna was better than the Allied occupation of Vienna, has numerous photos of him among Nazi sympathizers, and has called for the dissolution of the EU and Austrian expansionism - not to mention a reunion between Austria and Germany to create a pan-Germanic social identity and state. He's a modern Nazi in sheep's clothing, blaming Muslims instead of Jews for all social ills, who believes in German racial purity and superiority.
isn't there a german tradition of making fun of austrians for sounding like uneducated farmers
[QUOTE=Kentz;50377649]yes it is * financial burden * people get more and more euroskeptic as the EU forces them to take in immigrants * giant surge in crime and terrorism ??? whatever your stance on the issue is, this is by far the most important political question in europe right now[/QUOTE] The Cost [url]http://www.dw.com/en/the-costs-of-the-refugee-crisis/a-19016394[/url] Crime [url]http://www.dw.com/en/report-refugees-have-not-increased-crime-rate-in-germany/a-18848890[/url] [url]http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/644827/refugees-committed-crimes-Germany-migrant-crisis-last-year[/url] Most crime is shoplifting or not paying a bus fare for public transport. Sex crimes remain very low. The surge in terrorism has little to do with the refugee crisis. [url]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34832512[/url] Overwhelming majority of those involved in the Paris attacks were French or Belgian nationals. 1 MAY have been a migrant. The rise of terrorism can be blamed on ISIS, not refugees.
[QUOTE=Sam Za Nemesis;50377857]1M+ People/year of mostly unskilled people isn't a small influx [I]at all[/I], meanwhile even though I am of european descent it's nearly impossible for me to get back to my roots and contribute to the european society without a very strict immigration process even with sharing the same culture, a degree, language knowledge and skill Data has shown you that your second statement is also false[/QUOTE] Data varies depending on country but there's no crime epidemic among immigrants. Ofcourse the immigration process is very strict, it is for refugees too, it's very difficult to get asylum in european countries and refugees do not generally live great lives in refugee camps.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;50377782]The financial burden isn't that big, such a small influx of people barely has an impact on such a wealthy part of the world as Europe and also there is no big difference in the crime rate between immigrants and citizens of european countries.[/QUOTE] Exactly. Whether there was a link between ethnicity and crime was investigated here in the Netherlands at the request of the Dutch police and it's conclusion was that there is none. Native Dutch people in shitty neighbourhoods were just as likely to be criminals as, for example, Morroccans or Turks. Crime has to do with what friends you have, what neighbourhood you live in, etc. So yeah, if immigrants end up in shitty neighbourhoods, crime will go up. You stop this by making those neighbourhoods safer and raising the living standards, not by not letting brown people in. I'm pretty sure black people statistically commit more crimes than white people in the United States, guess they must just kick black people out, that will fix the problem right?????
[QUOTE=Lysander32;50377896]The Cost [url]http://www.dw.com/en/the-costs-of-the-refugee-crisis/a-19016394[/url] Crime [url]http://www.dw.com/en/report-refugees-have-not-increased-crime-rate-in-germany/a-18848890[/url] [url]http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/644827/refugees-committed-crimes-Germany-migrant-crisis-last-year[/url] Most crime is shoplifting or not paying a bus fare for public transport. Sex crimes remain very low. The surge in terrorism has little to do with the refugee crisis. [url]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34832512[/url] Overwhelming majority of those involved in the Paris attacks were French or Belgian nationals. 1 MAY have been a migrant. The rise of terrorism can be blamed on ISIS, not refugees.[/QUOTE] Exactly this. The rise of terrorism can be blamed on Wahhabism and extremist Salafism exported by the Middle East, particularly Saudi Arabia. The Imams that are spreading this shit are usually legal immigrants and religious educators, [I]not[/I] refugees. They prey on local Muslims and hijack the modernist interpretations of Islam in most Western countries to inject extremism into the Muslim communities, particularly targeting the youth - many of whom are nationals. Most refugees fleeing this area are more liberal than the extremists remaining - not as liberal as much of Europe, no doubt, but you're exactly right - the extremists aren't the ones fleeing the extremists.
You seriously don't think that there might be a security risk from open borders? Listen, I'm aware that it is blown out of proportion. But it is lunacy to believe that there is [I]no[/I] risk of open borders being exploited by ISIS - in fact, German security services have already identified that they are being exploited. [editline]23rd May 2016[/editline] Granted, this is a separate issue to migrant crisis. But it is strongly related, and you're conflating the two objections.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50377987]You seriously don't think that there might be a security risk from open borders? Listen, I'm aware that it is blown out of proportion. But it is lunacy to believe that there is [I]no[/I] risk of open borders being exploited by ISIS - in fact, German security services have already identified that they are being exploited. [editline]23rd May 2016[/editline] Granted, this is a separate issue to migrant crisis. But it is strongly related, and you're conflating the two objections.[/QUOTE] I have no doubt that the current immigration system is not working for the majority of European countries. That needs to be resolved, and I'm critical of the current governments for failing to find ways to stem the refugee tide or at least find ways to disperse them more evenly or handle the influx without frustrating citizens of those countries. But voting for far-right nationalists with very clear relationships to neo-nazis is the absolute wrong way to go about this. I understand the frustration and fear completely - but the reaction (xenophobia, racism, nationalism, etc) is toxic and should be discouraged.
[QUOTE=MaximLaHaxim;50377307]are you saying that not having a far-right party rule would be bad? [B]you realize that this party's first leader was an SS officer, right[/B][/QUOTE] Who cares? That war has been over for about sixty years now. Honestly, with how every other party has been handling the refugee crisis, this was a type of thing they paved the way for. You cannot be completely ignorant of the issues going on thanks to the economic migrants coming into Europe. Had something been done sooner, the Far-Right and Far-Left wouldn't be on the rise.
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;50376764]Seeing how many feel they need to vote for the far-right, that should be a wake up call for the politicians that the current immigration politics aren't accepted by a very large part of the people.[/QUOTE] Or that the disparity between rich and poor has never been bigger in human history and people seek for a scapegoat for abstract problems? You know, just like every country in distress gets more right winged? Remember Greece and Golden Dawn? That was way before the refugees arrived in huge numbers.
I was scared we'd get the next Hitler today, close call. Dude was totally stating how he'd go authoritarian as soon as he's elected.
Did anybody mention that the Neonazi dude believes in chemtrails yet?
[QUOTE=.Isak.;50378025]I have no doubt that the current immigration system is not working for the majority of European countries. That needs to be resolved, and I'm critical of the current governments for failing to find ways to stem the refugee tide or at least find ways to disperse them more evenly or handle the influx without frustrating citizens of those countries. But voting for far-right nationalists with very clear relationships to neo-nazis is the absolute wrong way to go about this. I understand the frustration and fear completely - but the reaction (xenophobia, racism, nationalism, etc) is toxic and should be discouraged.[/QUOTE] Definitely the case that these people should not be near power. But ultimately, I don't see a solution to this in the near future due to the fundamental nature of modern political parties. I'll explain what I mean. The vast majority of the 'establishment' (I'm usually critical of people who define it in this way, as it implies unified aims and beliefs which I can tell you is not the case, even among the super-rich) are pro-immigration for various reasons. These people take all the benefits from immigration. They get high-skilled workers in their businesses, cheaper low-skilled work to be their cleaners, nice ethnic restaurants opening up in town, and an *overall* economic benefit ([I]usually[/I] - this actually depends on who is coming, and economic benefit should be seen as likely rather than a guarantee. Very low skilled immigrants like Somalis are likely not to be economically beneficial to any country that takes them as seen by their very poor outcomes in every country they have been to). They never experience any of the social problems caused by immigration at all. They live entirely around other white people, and very successful and integrated immigrants. They don't send their children to schools where half the children can't speak English properly and teaching suffers. They don't experience the social tensions between native Austrians (or wherever) and extremely different cultures. And although wages for most workers aren't depressed in reality (except from the most marginal and low skilled, like fruit pickers in Britain) as a result of immigration, there is both anger at wage stagnation for other reasons, placed upon immigration, and anger at the high unemployment rate of certain immigrant groups (such as in Sweden), which may seem contradictory, but in reality is describing two different groups of immigrants as many people seem to fail to understand. As such, these 'establishment' (I suddenly sound like fucking Owen Jones, christ) parties are unlikely to address the anger that people are feeling whatsoever. By this, I don't mean entirely buying into far-right rhetoric, I mean simply examining what issues people have with immigration, and not simply dismissing them as the beliefs of a Nazi racist. I refuse to believe that almost half of Austrians are voting for this man because he is associated with Nazism. These parties are used to operating along the left-right paradigm, where the disagreements among the 'establishment' over economics, social services, welfare, and so on are central. Now, we are seeing this paradigm finally breaking apart. There was talk about this in the 1990s with the rise of 'third-way' politicians like Blair or Clinton, but I think it has actually happened. Instead the divide is between what [I]The Economist[/I] [URL="http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2016/02/mind-gap"]describes[/URL] as a cosmopolitan-communitarian divide. This is not the same as poor versus wealthy. Supporters of Trump earn well above the average income in the US and the idea of his working class support is a [URL="http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps-working-class-support/"]myth[/URL]. Instead it is a divide over the nature of culture and over immigration, rather than past disagreements over economics. Current establishment parties are ill-fitted to dealing with this divide due to their obvious allegiances (for the most part, and nor am I making a value judgement on this) to the cosmopolitan side. I haven't really fleshed out this idea too much, but I think I'll write some more on it in the future.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;50378027]Who cares? That war has been over for about sixty years now. [/QUOTE] Who cares about what? Whether the party's leader was former SS? Whether they are neo-nazis? How's this a question? Plenty of people do. First of all, sixty years is not a long time at all and the consequences of what the nazis did can still be felt today, and secondly, not many are willing to sleepwalk into the same thing by questioning who cares in the first place.
[QUOTE=phaedon;50378105]Who cares about what? Whether the party's leader was former SS? Whether they are neo-nazis? How's this a question? Plenty of people do. First of all, sixty years is not a long time at all and the consequences of what the nazis did can still be felt today, and secondly, not many are willing to sleepwalk into the same thing by questioning who cares in the first place.[/QUOTE] Not only this, but the party has been tied to neo-nazis and Nazi sympathy for its entire existence, not only since its inception. Haider was a renowned sympathizer - I posted quotes of his on the last page where he called men attending an SS reunion "men of principle" and applauded their efforts in WW2. Strache has demonstrated similar nazi sympathies, and he's the current head of the party. There's loads of evidence of this stuff. It's not just that it was founded by an SS member - it's that this party has called SS members and Luftwaffe members "heroes" and repeatedly criticized the Allies' actions in WW2 while supporting the Nazi occupation of Vienna and Austria. The history of the party hasn't just disappeared - it's a major, major part of their policy, and their revisionism towards Nazi atrocities is inexcusable.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;50378158]Not only this, but the party has been tied to neo-nazis and Nazi sympathy for its entire existence, not only since its inception. Haider was a renowned sympathizer - I posted quotes of his on the last page where he called men attending an SS reunion "men of principle" and applauded their efforts in WW2. Strache has demonstrated similar nazi sympathies, and he's the current head of the party. There's loads of evidence of this stuff. It's not just that it was founded by an SS member - it's that this party has called SS members and Luftwaffe members "heroes" and repeatedly criticized the Allies' actions in WW2 while supporting the Nazi occupation of Vienna and Austria. The history of the party hasn't just disappeared - it's a major, major part of their policy, and their revisionism towards Nazi atrocities is inexcusable.[/QUOTE] Austria has always been bad on this. Nazism wasn't stamped on as hard as in Germany, as they were seen as victims of Nazism in a way that Germany wasn't due to the Anschluss. [url]https://nickcohen.net/2015/09/06/viennas-nazi-legacy/[/url] [QUOTE]It had not come to terms with its past. So great was its pretence that it had been Hitler’s victim rather than his collaborator, that as late as 1992 its president was Kurt Waldheim, a Nazi officer who at the very least had witnessed war crimes in the Balkans then hid his complicity as his postwar career blossomed. Austria refused to pay compensation to the Nazis’ victims, and from 1970 onwards refused to investigate a remarkably large number of Austrians who were energetic Nazis. When my parents toured the Austrian Alps as a young couple in 1960, an approving woman told my stunned mother, “What a strong, tall husband, you have. He would have been in the SS in the war.”[/QUOTE]
That blog seems a bit biased to me.
[QUOTE=SEKCobra;50378203]That blog seems a bit biased to me.[/QUOTE] Well, obviously (though I should note the piece was originally in Standpoint). But I don't think the stuff that went down in Austria (and still goes down today) would fly in Germany.
[QUOTE=jonoPorter;50377360]Good job, now we have a left wing extremist fascist that wants to kill parliament if a right wing party wins next elections. Good job. [editline]23rd May 2016[/editline] Did I forget to mention he also supports TTIP?[/QUOTE] What happens in the event of the president deciding to dissolve the parliament? Does anouther election happen?
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50378219]Well, obviously (though I should note the piece was originally in Standpoint). But I don't think the stuff that went down in Austria (and still goes down today) would fly in Germany.[/QUOTE] Read up on AfD, germany has at least as much of this shit as we do, considering the size it's probably more. They might not have become as big yet, but there's a lot of them.
[QUOTE=Kentz;50377624]because no one else wants to admit or even talk about [I]the biggest problem in europe right now[/I] (which is immigration) besides these nutjobs[/QUOTE] I probably wouldn't call it "the biggest problem" but [I]everyone[/I] sure is talking about it here in Denmark. And has been for like the last year at least. [editline]23rd May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;50378027]Who cares? That war has been over for about sixty years now. Honestly, with [B]how every other party has been handling the refugee crisis[/B], this was a type of thing they paved the way for. You cannot be completely ignorant of the issues going on thanks to the economic migrants coming into Europe. Had something been done sooner, the Far-Right and Far-Left wouldn't be on the rise.[/QUOTE] Your knowledge of European politics must exceed mine by quite a bit. I mean, I don't follow everything, but I wouldn't call me completely ignorant either, and I couldn't tell what parties even exists in Austria.
[QUOTE=Killuah;50378089]Did anybody mention that the Neonazi dude believes in chemtrails yet?[/QUOTE] Do you have a source for that? Nevermind I found a source myself, it's in german though, so there's no point in posting the source here
Wow a green party candidate got elected :v:
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;50377934]Exactly. Whether there was a link between ethnicity and crime was investigated here in the Netherlands at the request of the Dutch police and it's conclusion was that there is none. Native Dutch people in shitty neighbourhoods were just as likely to be criminals as, for example, Morroccans or Turks. Crime has to do with what friends you have, what neighbourhood you live in, etc. So yeah, if immigrants end up in shitty neighbourhoods, crime will go up. You stop this by making those neighbourhoods safer and raising the living standards, not by not letting brown people in. I'm pretty sure black people statistically commit more crimes than white people in the United States, guess they must just kick black people out, that will fix the problem right?????[/QUOTE] It's more because this shit has pretty much been rising in the Netherlands in the past few decades already, and it hasn't exactly become any better in the past few years. Plus there being the whole issue how Marrocan and Turkish youth seem to aim most of their crime towards the native Dutch, like that car fire epidemic in Ede in the past month. Add on top of that that said groups seem even less integrated than their parents, and it suddenly doesn't seem much of a surprise that there are enough people who are completely fed up with their bullshit.
[QUOTE=Jordax;50378837]It's more because this shit has pretty much been rising in the Netherlands in the past few decades already, and it hasn't exactly become any better in the past few years.[/QUOTE] What has been rising for the past few decades, and can you give any proof that whatever you're referring to has been rising? [QUOTE=Jordax;50378837] Plus there being the whole issue how Marrocan and Turkish youth seem to aim most of their crime towards the native Dutch, like that car fire epidemic in Ede in the past month.[/QUOTE] Again, do you have any concrete proof for this besides the one incident you named here? Like, studies? How are you so sure that Moroccans are committing crimes to 'stick it to the Dutchies' or something? Also, I'd like to remind you that there was another Moroccan group protesting against the actions of the one you're referring to. [QUOTE=Jordax;50378837]Add on top of that that said groups seem even less integrated than their parents, and it suddenly doesn't seem much of a surprise that there are enough people who are completely fed up with their bullshit.[/QUOTE] Where are you getting this from? A report by a parlementary commission from [B]2004[/B] concluded that integration among immigrants in the Netherlands was only increasing as was the level of education among immigrants and their acceptance of our democracy and its values. And that was in 2004, [B]12[/B] years ago.
[QUOTE=Smug Bastard;50376713]Oh God.[/QUOTE] Yeah? And? The democratic party supported slavery and the KKK but that's not relevant to their current party so why does it matter? You're needlessly demonising a party.
[QUOTE=Jordax;50378837]It's more because this shit has pretty much been rising in the Netherlands in the past few decades already, and it hasn't exactly become any better in the past few years. Plus there being the whole issue how Marrocan and Turkish youth seem to aim most of their crime towards the native Dutch, like that car fire epidemic in Ede in the past month. Add on top of that that said groups seem even less integrated than their parents, and it suddenly doesn't seem much of a surprise that there are enough people who are completely fed up with their bullshit.[/QUOTE] Look, I get the mentality of "it suddenly doesn't seem much of a surprise that there are enough people who are completely fed up with their bullshit" and I think that's the majority of people who vote for these far right-wing parties, not that they are actually extremists, but it doesn't justify the xenophobia going on and it doesn't reflect the reality and that is why I mentioned source criticism and general critical thinking earlier.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50377540]TTIP? Oh no, literally Hitler![/QUOTE] Ttip is awful though, if you support it you are a lemur
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;50379284]Look, I get the mentality of "it suddenly doesn't seem much of a surprise that there are enough people who are completely fed up with their bullshit" and I think that's the majority of people who vote for these far right-wing parties, not that they are actually extremists, but it doesn't justify the xenophobia going on and it doesn't reflect the reality and that is why I mentioned source criticism and general critical thinking earlier.[/QUOTE] People should look more into [B]why[/B] these problems exist, why social phenomena happen Going by the logic of a lot of the people who vote for far-right parties, the US, like I said earlier, may as well just deport black people
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