• House votes in favor of bill to repeal Obamacare
    119 replies, posted
[QUOTE=BFG9000;47088252]you're right, the public school system in the US is shit (especially CA's) and it helps adults in the teacher's union more than students.[/QUOTE] as a person who lives in florida, a state where unions are outlawed, i can assure you that the public education is still shit
Good, I just started a business and cash is tight while starting up. If I had to pay for obamacare or any insurance I would have already had to close shop, there is just no way I could afford it on top of my other bills. Now I am getting fined $300 on my taxes for not having it, yay! Something else has to be done to control the ridiculous inflation in the healthcare industry.
[QUOTE=bigdandyd;47094571]Good, I just started a business and cash is tight while starting up. If I had to pay for obamacare or any insurance I would have already had to close shop, there is just no way I could afforjd it on top of my other bills. Now I am getting fined $300 on my taxes for not having it, yay! Something else has to be done to control the ridiculous inflation in the healthcare industry.[/QUOTE] If cash is tight then you may be exempt or qualify for state assistance.
[QUOTE=hydrated;47072316]that's not why conservatives are against obamacare. obamacare is a shitty compromise where nobody wins except insurance companies and the politicians they paid off. the old system was shit but not near as shit as obamacare. the right move would have either been to deregulate the existing system and allow insurance companies to compete across state lines (which would drive down costs in all states) or to go full on the other way with a european style healthcare system. obamacare doesn't do shit for poor people either.[/QUOTE] the medical expenses for my family total in the thousands monthly. we'd be shit out of luck without it. [editline]7th February 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=woolio1;47090678]As someone who's actually had a chance to look over the Common Core stuff in detail, it's actually not too dissimilar from what I learned growing up. I can understand why you'd see it that way if you've only read the news reports about it, though.[/QUOTE] it's how they teach the information that's different, you aren't taught to connect historical events (for example) together, it's now enough to be able to treat a historical event like a proper noun and memorize the definition
[QUOTE=GunFox;47095007]If cash is tight then you may be exempt or qualify for state assistance.[/QUOTE] This touches on what annoys me most about obamacare... Because my job offers insurance (and contributes minimum required to premiums) I'm automatically disqualified from subsidy assistance. The insurance they offer- well sucks. It's an hsa with a fairly high deductible. Until that deductible is met I pay all medical expenses myself. So my options are..A/ pay for work hsa coverage (basically catastrophic coverage), B/ pay even more for slightly better plan (as I can't afford anything beyond meh w/o some sort of subsidy), C/ pay the tax penalty (which is the higher amount of either 325 or 2% of income iirc) And don't get me wrong I understand the need for taxes. But obamacare shifts the cost burden squarely onto those who can least afford it.
I've noticed a pattern in US elections. Democrats get elected, economy starts to recover, and when prosperity is achieved they elect Republicans, who royally fuck everyone up the ass and line their own pockets, then they elect Democrats again. Not that I don't think both parties are shit, but corporate deregulation is a terrible idea and everyone knows it.
This means nothing. The Republicans do not have enough seats in the Senate to pass a repeal, and no Democrat would support this measure.
[QUOTE=PolarEventide;47095391]This means nothing. The Republicans do not have enough seats in the Senate to pass a repeal, and no Democrat would support this measure.[/QUOTE] Why do you think their intent was to pass this? Everyone with basic math skills knows your not repealing obamacare any time soon. What they are doing is a token gesture ment for their constituents. Every time this fails more and more people realize it would take a republican majority in house/senate as well as a republican president to get anything reasonable done.
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;47097737]Why do you think their intent was to pass this? Everyone with basic math skills knows your not repealing obamacare any time soon. What they are doing is a token gesture ment for their constituents. Every time this fails more and more people realize it would take a republican majority in house/senate as well as a republican president to get anything reasonable done.[/QUOTE] Some would call it a political stunt and a waste of time.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;47097745]Some would call it a political stunt and a waste of time.[/QUOTE] Please lol Consider it a normal step in the reelection process. Do you consider it a political stunt/waste of time when dems do it?
[QUOTE=FZE;47071914]And then the next step is to institute real national healthcare, right?[/QUOTE] America's not Canada silly.
[QUOTE=coldroll5;47097928]America's not Canada silly.[/QUOTE] We don't have national healthcare, we have national health insurance coverage. And it's quite sparse. It varies by province, but you generally get no dental coverage, no vision coverage, no prescription drug coverage. In many provinces you don't even get mental health counseling. Our implementation of healthcare is extraordinarily half-assed when compared to most other western countries. (USA is the exception, but our national obsession with mediocrity-as-long-as-it's-better-than-USA is killing us)
[QUOTE=hydrated;47072316]that's not why conservatives are against obamacare. obamacare is a shitty compromise where nobody wins except insurance companies and the politicians they paid off. the old system was shit but not near as shit as obamacare. the right move would have either been to deregulate the existing system and allow insurance companies to compete across state lines (which would drive down costs in all states) or to go full on the other way with a european style healthcare system. obamacare doesn't do shit for poor people either.[/QUOTE] Obamacare is only shit because the Liberals tried to appease the Republicans with it and the Republicans where only fine with making it shit or not having it at all
Obamacare is pretty bad, not really anyone should flat out support. Most people that tend to seem to people either the people it REALLY does help, which is 100% fine in my book, or people who just hear about it but dont actually get the realistic problems with it. It made my good insurance I was happy with for years go up by about an extra $1500 a year forcing me off it(due to it losing customers and money to obamacare). Its pretty shit for anyone that could afford insurance beforehand. I am hardly the only one this has happened to and its going to continue to happen. Its causing a lot of problems with people who were on more basic benefit packages at workplaces as well. Affordable Insurance =/= Worthwhile Insurance. I think WAY too many people think if you just have health insurance you are automatically covered for shit, when in reality unless you have amazing insurance, theirs generally a fuckload not covered, and obamacare wont put you through lasting cancer treatment.
[QUOTE=Jackald;47099439]I really don't understand why America doesn't have national healthcare yet. I mean shit, you guys spend billions of dollars in taxes on defense, but when it comes to healthcare suddenly it's way too pricey, which is ridiculous because the reason why you're paying so much for your private healthcare is because they exist in an oligarch-situation and basically have a dominance of the market. Healthcare is too important to be dictated by the laws of capitalism. And hey, under capitalism another competitor in the marketplace should improve the quality of the healthcare; you don't fucking [i]have[/i] to go to public healthcare, if you like your private healthcare provider you can totally just stick with them. Seriously, what are the negatives here? Can anyone tell me, and I don't mean that in a standoffish "Take that athetits" kind of way, I mean are there actually any negatives to it? Apart from it costing the government money (Which is dubious, because meidcare and medicaid is so expensive due to its inefficiencies)[/QUOTE] What I'm more interested in is how the defence spending is promoted as creating jobs and strengthening the economy while national healthcare is shot down as a waste of taxpayers money. Defence corporations are as international as pharmaceutical and medical device corporations. Doctors, nurses, clerks, pharmacists, physiotherapists and all manner of healthcare workers have jobs tied to the healthcare industry. The money spent on a missile is just as 'wasted' as someone getting an operation (the cost of the surgeon, OR, hospital bed, medication, electricity, water etc...). In a world where healthcare is an industry just like defence how is it that one is promoted and the other demonized? Am I really missing something here? And don't forget saving someone/keeping someone healthy leads to that person contributing more to society (even if it is just taxes if money is the main object here). I admit I have nothing against people who are opposed to any and all government spending though. They are welcome to live in the mountains.
[QUOTE=joes33431;47084660]your archetypal republican will want you to have the right to carry an AK-47 out in public, but not the right to marry someone of your own sex. your archetypal democrat will want the opposite, though instead of banning guns they might ban sodas that are too big or make seatbelt use mandatory.[/QUOTE] Is it too much to ask for to have a reasonably consistent party? excluding that joke of a libertarian party which we all know will likely never accomplish anything like, you'd figure that these big smart guys would realize "hey maybe if we start making sense people will vote for us" [QUOTE=joes33431;47091210]as a person who lives in florida, a state where unions are outlawed, i can assure you that the public education is still shit[/QUOTE] Illinois here. Public education is still shit.
[QUOTE=Jackald;47099796] Wait, is seatbelt use [i]not[/i] mandatory in the US?[/QUOTE] Federally no, but its only optional in New Hampshire.
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;47095229]This touches on what annoys me most about obamacare... Because my job offers insurance (and contributes minimum required to premiums) I'm automatically disqualified from subsidy assistance. The insurance they offer- well sucks. It's an hsa with a fairly high deductible. Until that deductible is met I pay all medical expenses myself. So my options are..A/ pay for work hsa coverage (basically catastrophic coverage), B/ pay even more for slightly better plan (as I can't afford anything beyond meh w/o some sort of subsidy), C/ pay the tax penalty (which is the higher amount of either 325 or 2% of income iirc) And don't get me wrong I understand the need for taxes. But obamacare shifts the cost burden squarely onto those who can least afford it.[/QUOTE] I'm in this same situation I work 2 jobs 7 days a week trying to save money to get ahead in life to save for a house and such but now with this extra money I have to pay so others can afford it it's basically I have to work both jobs to survive and put very little cash away in savings. I have enough to worry about keeping my life going forward and worrying about other people being covered isn't on my list of things to worry about at all. This penalizes the people that work really hard and in my opinion isn't fair at all. As far as I'm concerned I'm only only worried about me myself and I surviving and making a nice life for myself (the American dream some call it). Bottom line is there has to be a better way. I will work 7 days a week till I drop dead to make a nice life for myself and you best bet if you step in my way or take any of my hard earned money just for some stupid shit like this it's bulshit. Not to mention that if you get a subsidy and don't make enough in taxes at the end of the year you owe the government money. I'm sorry if I sound nuts but I don't care this is survival of the fittest and as long as I'm paying my bills and only my bills which I believe is the only fair way to do it then I'm happy. I think healthcare needs to change but not so it fucks over the hard working middle class like myself. Basically I don't work my nuts off so someone else can take it away.
[QUOTE=Jackald;47099439]I really don't understand why America doesn't have national healthcare yet. I mean shit, you guys spend billions of dollars in taxes on defense, but when it comes to healthcare suddenly it's way too pricey, which is ridiculous because the reason why you're paying so much for your private healthcare is because they exist in an oligarch-situation and basically have a dominance of the market. Healthcare is too important to be dictated by the laws of capitalism. And hey, under capitalism another competitor in the marketplace should improve the quality of the healthcare; you don't fucking [i]have[/i] to go to public healthcare, if you like your private healthcare provider you can totally just stick with them. Seriously, what are the negatives here? Can anyone tell me, and I don't mean that in a standoffish "Take that athetits" kind of way, I mean are there actually any negatives to it? Apart from it costing the government money (Which is dubious, because meidcare and medicaid is so expensive due to its inefficiencies)[/QUOTE] The only problem I have with the US getting socialized health care is that we're more likely than any other country to fuck it up. Look at all the states that are refusing to expand medicare, because they're full of fucking morons that elect people that do that kind of shit. Imagine if it was mandatory for each state to implement socialized health care, half of them would fuck it up due to incompetence and the other half would fuck it up on purpose due to malevolence. We'd have a few states that'd do it right (like Oregon or Massachusetts) and it'd be complete shit everywhere else. I'd love socialized health care but we, as a country, are not going to get it done well until we're ready for it. Obamacare (with some improvements and fixes) is the best America can do right now.
[QUOTE=apierce1289;47100119]I'm in this same situation I work 2 jobs 7 days a week trying to save money to get ahead in life to save for a house and such but now with this extra money I have to pay so others can afford it it's basically I have to work both jobs to survive and put very little cash away in savings. I have enough to worry about keeping my life going forward and worrying about other people being covered isn't on my list of things to worry about at all. This penalizes the people that work really hard and in my opinion isn't fair at all. As far as I'm concerned I'm only only worried about me myself and I surviving and making a nice life for myself (the American dream some call it). Bottom line is there has to be a better way. I will work 7 days a week till I drop dead to make a nice life for myself and you best bet if you step in my way or take any of my hard earned money just for some stupid shit like this it's bulshit. Not to mention that if you get a subsidy and don't make enough in taxes at the end of the year you owe the government money. I'm sorry if I sound nuts but I don't care this is survival of the fittest and as long as I'm paying my bills and only my bills which I believe is the only fair way to do it then I'm happy. I think healthcare needs to change but not so it fucks over the hard working middle class like myself. Basically I don't work my nuts off so someone else can take it away.[/QUOTE] Except contributing towards the healthcare of others isn't 'stupid shit', its mutually beneficial. Fair enough, from what I've seen the whole ObamaCare deal has been poorly implemented but over here in the UK the NHS (Which itself isn't perfect but it at least guarantees everyone access to care - there's nothing stopping you from going private if you can afford it) gets its funding from our taxes. In the US you folks have plenty of money going into stuff like your defense budget and so on so why can't a part of that be partitioned for the sake of improving the quality of life for people who can't/struggle to afford healthcare. At least with some kind of universal healthcare system, there'd be something for people to fall back on if their financial state falls on hard times.
[QUOTE=Jackald;47099439]I really don't understand why America doesn't have national healthcare yet. I mean shit, you guys spend billions of dollars in taxes on defense, but when it comes to healthcare suddenly it's way too pricey, which is ridiculous because the reason why you're paying so much for your private healthcare is because they exist in an oligarch-situation and basically have a dominance of the market. Healthcare is too important to be dictated by the laws of capitalism. And hey, under capitalism another competitor in the marketplace should improve the quality of the healthcare; you don't fucking [i]have[/i] to go to public healthcare, if you like your private healthcare provider you can totally just stick with them. Seriously, what are the negatives here? Can anyone tell me, and I don't mean that in a standoffish "Take that athetits" kind of way, I mean are there actually any negatives to it? Apart from it costing the government money (Which is dubious, because meidcare and medicaid is so expensive due to its inefficiencies)[/QUOTE] You want to know the real kicker? We spend about 20 percent of our GDP on healthcare. You lot spend something like 11 or 12 percent in return for one of the better national health care systems. Of our 20 percent of our GDP spent on healthcare, somewhere around 60 percent of that is in taxes. Which, you know, means we are spending about 11 or 12 percent of our GDP on healthcare. WE ALREADY ARE PAYING AS MUCH IN TAXES AS IT TAKES TO RUN A NATIONAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEM. The Republicans are what is wrong. No matter how much time and effort is put into establishing that what the Republicans are doing is both ethically and factually wrong, we never seem to make any headway. I don't know how to deal with them at this point. We've only gotten this far because we sit on a ridiculous amount of resources and produce gobs of capital. That isn't going to continue to be sufficient to compensate for the Republicans doing everything in their power to drive us straight into the dirt. [editline]9th February 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=apierce1289;47100119]I'm in this same situation I work 2 jobs 7 days a week trying to save money to get ahead in life to save for a house and such but now with this extra money I have to pay so others can afford it it's basically I have to work both jobs to survive and put very little cash away in savings. I have enough to worry about keeping my life going forward and worrying about other people being covered isn't on my list of things to worry about at all. This penalizes the people that work really hard and in my opinion isn't fair at all. As far as I'm concerned I'm only only worried about me myself and I surviving and making a nice life for myself (the American dream some call it). Bottom line is there has to be a better way. I will work 7 days a week till I drop dead to make a nice life for myself and you best bet if you step in my way or take any of my hard earned money just for some stupid shit like this it's bulshit. Not to mention that if you get a subsidy and don't make enough in taxes at the end of the year you owe the government money. I'm sorry if I sound nuts but I don't care this is survival of the fittest and as long as I'm paying my bills and only my bills which I believe is the only fair way to do it then I'm happy. I think healthcare needs to change but not so it fucks over the hard working middle class like myself. Basically I don't work my nuts off so someone else can take it away.[/QUOTE] American health care has an issue called "Cost shifting". Basically uninsured people still receive medical care because, while we are retarded, we aren't total monsters. So they get their medical care and then the hospital spends money trying to collect on a debt that they will never actually receive. Which wouldn't really matter except that cost is then distributed onto everything else in the system. Part of the reason healthcare is so expensive is because you are already paying to support those who can't pay regardless of legislation. But instead of it being fairly distributed (And the poor receiving decent care) we make capitalism distribute the cost, which, as you might imagine doesn't wind up in your favor plus you have to pay for the attempts that they made to collect on a debt. Basically you are paying for everyone's healthcare whether you want to or not. Nationalized medicine at least ensures that you are paying a fair rate AND, because people with good healthcare engage in preventative medicine, you wind up paying for fewer expensive procedures because people address things BEFORE they are a problem.
[QUOTE=Jackald;47099796]I find this especially amusing considering the NHS here in the UK put my Dad through 2 years of world-class chemotherapy and radiotherapy in Oxford and saved his life. If we lived in America, my dad would probably be dead right now.[/QUOTE] There is no probably about it. If you don't come up with the money for chemo and radiotherapy, you just don't get it and die of cancer. Hospitals and doctors are legally required to treat acute systems but by the time acute symptoms of cancer appear it's generally too late anyway. I lost a parent to cancer but thankfully she had employee health insurance from the company she worked for. The idea that a lot of people in the US don't have that luxury is horrifying.
[QUOTE=GunFox;47107997]You want to know the real kicker? We spend about 20 percent of our GDP on healthcare. You lot spend something like 11 or 12 percent in return for one of the better national health care systems. Of our 20 percent of our GDP spent on healthcare, somewhere around 60 percent of that is in taxes. Which, you know, means we are spending about 11 or 12 percent of our GDP on healthcare. WE ALREADY ARE PAYING AS MUCH IN TAXES AS IT TAKES TO RUN A NATIONAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEM. The Republicans are what is wrong. No matter how much time and effort is put into establishing that what the Republicans are doing is both ethically and factually wrong, we never seem to make any headway. I don't know how to deal with them at this point. We've only gotten this far because we sit on a ridiculous amount of resources and produce gobs of capital. That isn't going to continue to be sufficient to compensate for the Republicans doing everything in their power to drive us straight into the dirt. [editline]9th February 2015[/editline] American health care has an issue called "Cost shifting". Basically uninsured people still receive medical care because, while we are retarded, we aren't total monsters. So they get their medical care and then the hospital spends money trying to collect on a debt that they will never actually receive. Which wouldn't really matter except that cost is then distributed onto everything else in the system. Part of the reason healthcare is so expensive is because you are already paying to support those who can't pay regardless of legislation. But instead of it being fairly distributed (And the poor receiving decent care) we make capitalism distribute the cost, which, as you might imagine doesn't wind up in your favor plus you have to pay for the attempts that they made to collect on a debt. Basically you are paying for everyone's healthcare whether you want to or not. Nationalized medicine at least ensures that you are paying a fair rate AND, because people with good healthcare engage in preventative medicine, you wind up paying for fewer expensive procedures because people address things BEFORE they are a problem.[/QUOTE] It's already difficult trying to support myself and sock away a decent amount of cash is what I was trying to point out. When I can't afford something I don't cry about it I solve the problem hence I work 2 jobs to support myself. If you can't afford something than I do feel bad for you but I don't fell bad if you do nothing to fix it yourself. If I need to get a third job to sock more money away then I will.
[QUOTE=Monkah;47099707]Is it too much to ask for to have a reasonably consistent party? excluding that joke of a libertarian party which we all know will likely never accomplish anything like, you'd figure that these big smart guys would realize "hey maybe if we start making sense people will vote for us"[/QUOTE] they don't need to, because voters put them in office regardless, often on the trust that they'll oppose or reverse the policies of the evil scheming "other" party. the republican party is the reason that people vote democratic and vice versa. and it's also important to recognize the share of blame that lies with the electorate: the party platforms may not make sense, but those platforms are still gospel for some people, which is in part caused by a lack of key understanding regarding political issues. the public needs to be better-educated and informed; the problem is that all efforts toward that goal are endlessly politicized or otherwise paralyzed by fear of being politicized.
[QUOTE=-nesto-;47088371]Not always. You can't lump all the schools in America together. Just because your state is shit doesn't mean the other 49 are.[/QUOTE] No, it's pretty universally shit in the US. [editline]10th February 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=SpartanXC9;47099409]Obamacare is only shit because the Liberals tried to appease the Republicans with it and the Republicans where only fine with making it shit or not having it at all[/QUOTE] Do you really believe that? ACA passed without a single Republican vote. They could have put anything they wanted in that bill, and the GOP would not have been able to stop it.
[QUOTE=apierce1289;47113652]It's already difficult trying to support myself and sock away a decent amount of cash is what I was trying to point out. When I can't afford something I don't cry about it I solve the problem hence I work 2 jobs to support myself. If you can't afford something than I do feel bad for you but I don't fell bad if you do nothing to fix it yourself. If I need to get a third job to sock more money away then I will.[/QUOTE] And your mindset is what is actually ruining America. When one job isn't enough to support you, there is a problem. It isn't your problem, it is society's problem. This "well work three jobs then, you lazy bastard" is fucking ridiculous. We bring in ridiculous amounts of money in this country and you want to tell me that people have to suffer and work multiple jobs just to make ends meet? Bull. Fucking. Shit. The economy exists solely as a human manifestation. NOTHING about an economic system is concrete. The value we ascribe to everything is purely subjective. We make the economy, we can choose to make an economy that doesn't fuck everyone over. Your mindset prevents that. Your mindset is more of a problem than the poor bastards who can't afford to cover their own medical costs.
The problem is, minimal wage isn't livable wage.
[QUOTE=Selek;47073100]Afaik it was always called Affordable Care but because Republicans always named it Obamacare because that apparently made it sound less well-meaning or whatever, combine that with how vehemently Obama campaigned and fought for it and people took it up and called it Obamacare. Also it's more catchy.[/QUOTE] Republicans called it Obamacare because if it fell through and became a disaster the name would guarantee that as his biggest legacy (and by extension the recent Democratic party) -- failure.
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