• EU expected to launch military operation to destroy people-smugglers' boats in Libya
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[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47747699]It's something different when USA declares war to literally entire nations all the way across the globe, and when EU could send more peacekeeping forces to support already more or elss legitimate governments in Africa which is clearly next door enough for people to constantly leak our way.[/QUOTE] So we should ignore the powers that be in Africa, intervene regardless and stop it ourselves? Wow, great idea, the last time the West intervened in an area went so well. How about this, Africa takes some fucking responsibility for it's people, since if we get involved someone will almost certainly be pissed off enough to start bombing shit. Again. [editline]18th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=AntonioR;47748041]Stabilize the region. Invest. Stop emigration. Create a new market. Profit.[/QUOTE] Great idea, we'll just go ahead and do that while we attempt desperately to deal with our budget deficits and the fact that many European economies are still in a really shit way, we should just go ahead and completely rebuild a country for a bunch of people, all the while trying to deal with the people dead set on tearing down the nation either while we rebuild it or the second we leave. How about this, we just stop dealing with other peoples bullshit and we deal with our own?
[QUOTE=MR-X;47747140]I hope they don't mean "By taking action in international waters" by blowing up boats while people are on them. If that is the case that is super fucked up and isn't that pretty much a crime?[/QUOTE] Their plan is to fuck up the boats after the people are off of them, to stop them being being reused.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47747431]How about instead dedicating effort to unfucking the countries the refugees are coming from, so they don't have the initiative to throw themselves at the slim chance they might survive way to Europe? That's IMHO the only morally acceptable way of "dealing" with the immigration.[/QUOTE] And what is to be done with the boats coming across? If the boats are allowed to operate freely, they are just going to keep ferrying more and more people over, further weakening their own country in the process since all of the people with skills will be leaving. Now Africa as a whole has been steadily improving (especially as they adopt free markets, get overseas investment, manage budgets more effectively, governments are more stable, etc), but a lot of these have been the result of either initiatives on their own part or deals in a equal partnership, and often they aren't in the middle of a civil war when this improvement takes place. In the case of Libya, what do you think is actually possible when the country is in a state of civil war?
[QUOTE=AntonioR;47748041]Stabilize the region. Invest. Stop emigration. Create a new market. Profit.[/QUOTE] Funny cause EU can't afford to do it to even its own countries. There's no way it will be able to successfully do this in Africa.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;47748594]Funny cause EU can't afford to do it to even its own countries. There's no way it will be able to successfully do this in Africa.[/QUOTE] Additionally you can't just throw money at a country and hope it creates growth, preconditions must be met by the country.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;47748960]Additionally you can't just throw money at a country and hope it creates growth, preconditions must be met by the country.[/QUOTE] I think EU learned that much from Greece
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;47748960]Additionally you can't just throw money at a country and hope it creates growth, preconditions must be met by the country.[/QUOTE] The problem is that money has been thrown to African countries for the better part of half a century and it's still underdeveloped. That's because the money ends up in the hands of psychotic warlords or megalomaniac dictators. And western countries of course know this and yet keep lining the pockets of these deranged individuals. "Fixing" Africa's problems would not result in an economic profit for Europe as other people said, on the contrary. Agricultural and foodstuff companies profit massively from the non-competitive and archaic way of production of african farmers. Markets are already flooded with european and american products because there are no african tech companies, engineering firms, factories and industries. The only productive sectors are the exploitative ones left by the colonists: exotic wood, rare minerals and diamond, which are still run by european companies (i.e. the diamond market is a complete monopoly run by a singular british company, De Beers Mining). Making Africa competitive would just create more competition from down south.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47747519]The west has tried that with not much success. [/QUOTE] And by tried meaning you have policies in place that make immigration almost impossible.
[QUOTE=AntonioR;47748041]Stabilize the region. Invest. Stop emigration. Create a new market. Profit.[/QUOTE] Oh man but dude you might have to lower your investment into Research, you'll get less Beakers but Production will go up helping your plan.
[QUOTE=Swilly;47750342]And by tried meaning you have policies in place that make immigration almost impossible.[/QUOTE] Tried "unfucking the countries the refugees are coming from" meaning overthrowing oppressive governments and attempting to install democratic governments, or fighting terrorist organizations, just as they are currently fighting the IS. In many ways all that's happened from that is fucking up the region even more, in part due to a lack of commitment to stay the course by the west, in part due a lack of tact on the part of the west, and in part because not everyone in those regions wants them to be "unfucked" in the way the west does it, or perhaps not at all. Really though, I don't see the west being there to fix the region, they are there to prevent the region's problems from becoming their problems, or at the very least to contain the issues to the region itself. The fight against the IS is perhaps the most clear example of this. Oil and any other valuable resources may come into play as well, but I do not think that is the primary reason in every, or even most, cases.
Nobody even cares that much that these relatively small amounts of refugees make it into the EU, its just half of them die trying, and human smuggling is shady business.
[QUOTE=PatrickT;47748290]It's funny to see that people actually see this as a realistic solution to the problem. To develop Africa to the point where there is no attraction to Europe would require astronomical amounts of investments, during substantial periods of time, and even then there would be no certainty that the goal to develop Africa would be achieved by that. What happened to the idea that people were responsible for their own lives? In the end it's the Africans themselves that have the ability to change this situation. Foreign intervention isn't the solution imo.[/QUOTE] *says the dutch guy who is totally unaware of the fact that huge companies with more power than governments, like Royal Dutch Shell, get in the way of people's lives by bribing everything in its way and what's more, collaborating with executions against those who wanted to keep their land clean and have a better future* Yes, you are completely right Stupid incapable Africans. Like, really, are you people so fucking dumb you think the Africans can't do shit? That somehow Europeans are more responsible and can keep their shit together? Ahhhh United States, why the fuck did you have to give these guys all that help and credits/loans? To let them become the pricks they are? Bah, it's the USSR fault in fact...
[QUOTE=dilzinyomouth;47747833]No one is getting upset because its fucking china. I'm not being funny, nobody says shit to china because tensions are high. The same way nobody really does anything of substance to get in the way of Russia. Because they are powerful, and ready to start a conflict at the drop of a hat. [editline]18th May 2015[/editline] and actually, I mispoke. People are getting upset about china's activity in Africa [url]http://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/19/08/2014/new-neo-colonialism-africa[/url] [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18901656[/url] and hundreds more articles like it Just no one of any real political clout or otherwise power in any shape or form, for the aforementioned reasons.[/QUOTE] there is also the point that china is ACTUALLY building infrastructure on africa, sure its exploitation on some level, but at least africa is getting something in return, and when you compare it to western companies who in some cases as recent as the last decade, hired mercenaries to kill people who protested(like shell), used what was basically infant slave labor(nestle) and other fucked up shit, it shouldn't be a surprise that china is better received over there.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;47752431][B]there is also the point that china is ACTUALLY building infrastructure on africa, sure its exploitation on some level, but at least africa is getting something in return, [/B]and when you compare it to western companies who in some cases as recent as the last decade, hired mercenaries to kill people who protested(like shell), used what was basically infant slave labor(nestle) and other fucked up shit, it shouldn't be a surprise that china is better received over there.[/QUOTE] So colonialism then? cheers
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;47752431]there is also the point that china is ACTUALLY building infrastructure on africa, sure its exploitation on some level, but at least africa is getting something in return, and when you compare it to western companies who in some cases as recent as the last decade, hired mercenaries to kill people who protested(like shell), used what was basically infant slave labor(nestle) and other fucked up shit, it shouldn't be a surprise that china is better received over there.[/QUOTE] China is not killing or allowing companies to kill people because they outright make a prerequisite to have the people in check in order to invest. You're not going to invest in some place where police or the local military don't fuck up those who oppose. NOTE: To whoever raises the Dutch Shell objection, the difference lays in that China companies come with help from the state, so it's not the same having a private company from whom the state is not liable to having a mixed company from whom the state is somewhat responsible. The public outrage from the Chinese killing native tribes would trigger a fuck ton of international sanctions and would be extremely negative PR (ALTHOUGH I wouldnt be surprised if they have done it....AFAIK the Chinese have sent troops to Africa for some "exercises" -the official explanation-) Watch out, the government receives them better, [I]not [/I]those who work under them. China commits the same sins that so many western companies have commited in both China and Africa, but it doesn't get the same public outlash or media attention. And they are basically doing the same over here. Your country escaped that fate because it managed to accumulate enough dosh to build infraestructure before the Chinese...(unlike here where they are outright financing dams)
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;47753651]China is not killing or allowing companies to kill people because they outright make a prerequisite to have the people in check in order to invest. You're not going to invest in some place where police or the local military don't fuck up those who oppose. NOTE: To whoever raises the Dutch Shell objection, the difference lays in that China companies come with help from the state, so it's not the same having a private company from whom the state is not liable to having a mixed company from whom the state is somewhat responsible. The public outrage from the Chinese killing native tribes would trigger a fuck ton of international sanctions and would be extremely negative PR (ALTHOUGH I wouldnt be surprised if they have done it....AFAIK the Chinese have sent troops to Africa for some "exercises" -the official explanation-) Watch out, the government receives them better, [I]not [/I]those who work under them. China commits the same sins that so many western companies have commited in both China and Africa, but it doesn't get the same public outlash or media attention. And they are basically doing the same over here. Your country escaped that fate because it managed to accumulate enough dosh to build infraestructure before the Chinese...(unlike here where they are outright financing dams)[/QUOTE] china isn't perfect but it harms africa faaar less than western powers did historically(and atm), which is what i meant about "people not disliking them as much", to an african dude there is a big difference between some white dude coming along and doing this and a chinese dude. also i wasn't defending it, i was simply pointing out a fact.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;47754306]china isn't perfect but it harms africa faaar less than western powers did historically(and atm), which is what i meant about "people not disliking them as much", to an african dude there is a big difference between some white dude coming along and doing this and a chinese dude.[/QUOTE] The Chinese have already propped up dictatorships, supported corporations, employed forced labour, polluted the environment, and bullied governments into signing over control of all their natural resources or reducing regulations. The irony is lost on the Chinese.
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