• China tells US: Stop preaching on human rights
    201 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Tac Error;29099290]Let's look at the few things United States has done overseas in the 2nd half of the 20th century to other countries: Helping the overthrow of Allende in Chile Taking part in replacing Iran's democratrically-elected president with a tyrant Shah Aiding the Salvadoran government in their civil war And interally, arresting and court-martialling soldiers opposed to the Iraq War. Each power has it own distinct style of evil. :v:[/QUOTE] I know. It's just I tend to view a bunch of government coups in the background of the Cold War as just not being even close to as evil as murdering thousands of your own citizens during a peaceful protest, making major human rights activists "disappear," or controlling all media, religion, and politics over your entire population of 1.5 billion. Hence the murderer thief analogy. They're both criminals it's just the actions of one are much worse than the other.
[QUOTE=RBM11;29099472]I know. It's just I tend to view a bunch of government coups in the background of the Cold War as just not being even close to as evil as murdering thousands of your own citizens during a peaceful protest, making major human rights activists "disappear," or controlling all media, religion, and politics over your entire population of 1.5 billion.[/quote] I find that the side that lets the couped countries do whatever bad shit they do to their own people under the counter, and yet regards itself to be "morally superior" to be as bad as a state killing their own population. You do know that there were some [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Ziyang]high[/url] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hu_Yaobang]ranking[/url] guys in the CCP and its Politburo who wanted to end the rule of the hardliners and start their own form of political perestroika, right? Not all of the CCP was a monolithic evil organization and it's unfortunate that the hardliners didn't fall like the Soviets' did in 1991.
[QUOTE=Tac Error;29099290]Let's look at the few things United States has done overseas in the 2nd half of the 20th century to other countries: Helping the overthrow of Allende in Chile Taking part in replacing Iran's democratrically-elected president with a tyrant Shah Aiding the Salvadoran government in their civil war And interally, arresting and court-martialling soldiers opposed to the Iraq War. Each power has it own distinct style of evil. :v:[/QUOTE] do you honestly think the US's human rights violations come remotely close to china? hahahahaha
[QUOTE=Tac Error;29099705]I find that the side that lets the couped countries do whatever bad shit they do to their own people under the counter, and yet regards itself to be "morally superior" to be as bad as a state killing their own population. You do know that there were some [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Ziyang]high[/url] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hu_Yaobang]ranking[/url] guys in the CCP and its Politburo who wanted to end the rule of the hardliners and start their own form of political perestroika, right? Not all of the CCP was a monolithic evil organization and it's unfortunate that the hardliners didn't fall like the Soviets' did in 1991.[/QUOTE] The Nazi's weren't bad because some of them tried to kill Hitler.
[QUOTE=Melnek;29093921]:downsbravo: And once again angry patriotic americans throw a hissy fit whenever the crimes of the US are brought up instead of acknowledging them for once and standing by them. "CHINA DID WORSE THINGS" is not an argument justifying the mistakes of the US, stop using it.[/QUOTE] Except that's the opposite exact opposite of what's happening. This is about China going, "WELL, UH, THE US DID SOME BAD THINGS TOO!" when their crimes are brought up.
not all of the ccp was a monolithic evil organization, just 99.9%
Pot calling kettle black, etc.
[QUOTE=Android phone;29100606]do you honestly think the US's human rights violations come remotely close to china? hahahahaha[/QUOTE] You're saying that the thousands of executed, persecuted and imprisoned for political reasons in countries under the US sphere of influence during the Cold War is not even close to the similar numbers of people politically executed, persecuted and imprisoned in the PRC? [QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;29100671]The Nazi's weren't bad because some of them tried to kill Hitler.[/QUOTE] That's a pretty poor analogy. I guess why Denazification failed in the American sector in postwar Germany. Here, I'll even substantiate my claim: [url]http://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_11_02_03_payne.pdf[/url] [quote]At the time, policymakers were not sufficiently open-minded to perceive this reality. U.S. officials imagined that those who had acted in the Nazi Party remained deeply committed believers. This view led them to expect “werewolves,” or cells of fanatical, violent Nazis who would harass the occupation army in suicide attacks and sabotage (Montgomery 1957, 69). Nothing of the sort happened, but its absence did not cause policymakers to change their views about the Nazis’ nature. Furthermore, heinous deeds had been done in the name of Nazism, and the world wanted to see punishment. Imprisoning the obvious leaders and malefactors would not be enough; all who had put their shoulders to the Nazi wheel must be made to suffer. Many occupation officials on the scene perceived the basic, normal “humanness” of former Nazis, but they could not tell distant audiences that persecution of former Nazis was unwise and unworkable. When General George Patton commented that there wasn’t much more difference between German parties than there was between Republicans and Democrats, a storm of protest back home led to his recall. The denazification process ascribed guilt by association. Germans were punished—fired from their jobs, fined, or sent to jail—not for what they actually did. To convict a person, the tribunals did not have to prove that a defendant killed someone or that he ordered an arrest or caused some other kind of injury. It was enough that the accused was or was alleged to be an active sympathizer. This shadowy protocol encouraged informers to come forward to denounce neighbors--or personal enemies.[/quote]
the US has no business criticising what china does; after all, it is an entirely different culture with different values, and judging their actions by our, western, standards is simply not valid.
[QUOTE=Tac Error;29101069] That's a pretty poor analogy. I guess why Denazification failed in the American sector in postwar Germany. [/QUOTE] Germany just stormed across Europe and caused the single largest war in THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF MANKIND second only in magnitude to the FIRST TIME THEY DID IT. The fact that we didn't crush their nation entirely is fucking astounding. Moreover when West Berlin was cutoff from supplies, it was allied planes flying in massive amounts of supplies at huge costs.
[QUOTE=Uber|nooB;29101149]the US has no business criticising what china does; after all, it is an entirely different culture with different values, and judging their actions by our, western, standards is simply not valid.[/QUOTE] So how different does your culture have to be before you get to start doing whatever you want?
[QUOTE=GunFox;29101321]Germany just stormed across Europe and caused the single largest war in THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF MANKIND second only in magnitude to the FIRST TIME THEY DID IT. The fact that we didn't crush their nation entirely is fucking astounding.[/quote] Emotional rage from WWII surely made the Allies go on a witchhunting spree in their denazification programs to the extent to labeling anyone who had Nazi membership as a hardcore Nazi. "You used to be a Nazi? Sorry, you're going to be Hitler incarnate and we can't offer you this job." But the American authorities regained their brains and abandoned their denazi program in the early '50s. How the Soviets did it in Berlin is interesting: "Hey former Nazi. You should be a member of the communists. If you don't want to we'll put a bullet in your brain." [quote]Moreover when West Berlin was cutoff from supplies, it was allied planes flying in massive amounts of supplies at huge costs.[/QUOTE] What does this have to do with Nazism and labeling an "evil" political party as a single-minded thing?
[QUOTE=Uber|nooB;29101149]the US has no business criticising what china does; after all, it is an entirely different culture with different values, and judging their actions by our, western, standards is simply not valid.[/QUOTE] Would you say that about Khmer Rouge Cambodia, where millions were systematically executed?
[QUOTE=GunFox;29092977]Yeah that is called every day. The US sits firmly in the spotlight. Everyone picks apart our politics. While I wish most nations would get their nose out of the stuff that affects the US internally, they have a vested interest in our foreign policy and should very much call us out when we do stupid shit (Which also, coincidentally, happens every day). China sits in the corner slowly building the military and economic power with a totalitarian government with complete control over the spread of information. China is, in many respects, North Korea with a better diplomatic front and a shit ton more money.[/QUOTE] I like how at the same time you are saying this, your country is occupying and controlling multiple middle-eastern countries. It's not like YOU don't put your nose into everything. [QUOTE=Prismatex;29105806]Would you say that about Khmer Rouge Cambodia, where millions were systematically executed?[/QUOTE] Bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. :v:
[QUOTE=Falchion;29105952]Bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. :v:[/QUOTE]A military action (a strongly distasteful one, i'll grant you) during a time of war, not comparable at all to the genocide that went on in Cambodia.
Child soldiers and bombing massacres in Laos among the other things CIA did there in a "secret operation" i mentioned earlier.
[QUOTE=Falchion;29106090]Child soldiers and bombing massacres in Laos among the other things CIA did there in a "secret operation" i mentioned earlier.[/QUOTE]What was the name of the operation(s), specifically? Not doubting their happening, but makes it easier for me to read more about them if I know their name(s). In any case, it's still a far cry from state-mandated genocide which resulted in more than 15% of the population being murdered.
pol pot u so silly
[QUOTE=NoDachi;29107321]pol pot u so silly[/QUOTE]Up until I was about 14 I genuinely believed he was a brand of Pot Noodles.
[QUOTE=seano12;29081526]Free Tibet and then talk.[/QUOTE] Napalm Vietnam and then shut up. Asshole.
as much as China has its problems, the guy's kinda right, we have our own things we need to worry about.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;29081568]Shut down Guantanamo and then talk Both countries have issues and that's basically what China is saying[/QUOTE] too bad guantanamo is justified on the basis of it containing terrorists
The Government has shut down but they still manage to find the money to say that China are crap at human rights?
[QUOTE=Capitulazyguy;29114720]The Government has shut down but they still manage to find the money to say that China are crap at human rights?[/QUOTE] I take it you missed the topic where they didn't shut down after all and cut a negligible amount of money instead?
[QUOTE=42O;29113868]too bad guantanamo is justified on the basis of it containing terrorists[/QUOTE] except that none of the people there have had a trial and are being held indefinitely
[QUOTE=XxXKillErXxxX^2;29112699]Napalm Vietnam and then shut up. Asshole.[/QUOTE] I could've sworn China blocked facepunch with its incredibly oppressive internet censoring I mean so what if you would get 0 results for 'tank man' on google china, they fixed that by completely banning google, the US is totally the same because of that internet killswitch they were thinking about doing :downs: [editline]11th April 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=JDK721;29115807]except that none of the people there have had a trial and are being held indefinitely[/QUOTE] afaik none of them are US citizens and the countries the alleged terrorists have citizenship in aren't part of the geneva convention, not sure on that one, but it's still laughable to say guantanimo is a hundredth as bad as tibet
[QUOTE=Android phone;29116178]I could've sworn China blocked facepunch with its incredibly oppressive internet censoring I mean so what if you would get 0 results for 'tank man' on google china, they fixed that by completely banning google, the US is totally the same because of that internet killswitch they were thinking about doing :downs: [editline]11th April 2011[/editline] afaik none of them are US citizens and the countries the alleged terrorists have citizenship in aren't part of the geneva convention, not sure on that one, but it's still laughable to say guantanimo is a hundredth as bad as tibet[/QUOTE] No Facepunch isn't blocked in China, and tank man is back on Chinese Google as it redirects to the Hong Kong Google. But the search results that leads to the pictures are most likely banned, unless they are uploaded on forums and blogs. I think it's likely that Google is blocked completely after the dispute that happened between them. And it's not laughable at all to say that Guantanamo is 100 times worse than Tibet. Guantanamo is a god damn prison where terrorists are held. Tibet is a part of China, which it tries to improve the infrastructure. However if you are talking about the treatment of "wrong thinking" citizens in Tibet, then I can agree with you that it sinks down to Guantanamo level.
that's what I'm talking about, China's been pulling a Ghaddafi on Tibet for years and nobody seems to care, but when the US tries to detain accused terrorists (sloppily gone about but still for a good reason) suddenly everyone's up in arms
[QUOTE=Android phone;29116669]that's what I'm talking about, China's been pulling a Ghaddafi on Tibet for years and nobody seems to care, but when the US tries to detain accused terrorists (sloppily gone about but still for a good reason) suddenly everyone's up in arms[/QUOTE] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53FkMK20aCg[/media] This will explain.... AND THIS IS FOR EVERYONE FUCKING ELSE!
But that's because Ghaddafi ordered his military to attack the civilians. Notice the word "attack". China has never ordered their army to attack civilians in Tibet. Tibet is an Autonomous Region. Living as a citizen there isn't bad, no matter if you are belonging to a minority group or not, unless you are some kind of political activist of course. The moment which the Chinese government acted most similar to Ghaddafi was during 1989. Troops were ordered there to scare and demoralize the crowd. But as you know, things escalated and it ended in several dead demonstrators. And China did suffer from it. Even today people mention it A LOT. EU and USA have weapon embargoes on China and several other import/export restrictions. And about the controversy about Guantanamo. These are just my thoughts, but for a country as USA that often seems to proclaim its superior freedom and human rights. Detaining terrorists (without knowing for sure), torturing them and having individual cases of soldiers releasing images of these inhumane treatments can seem quite ironic, which is probably why people are complaining. And since USA is a nation which no one can control, of course people reacts. It's not like people aren't having negative reactions towards China right now at moment. Both of the nations are quite heavily criticized (thank odin i live in sweden).
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