Yeah, this is the ONLY time this EVER happened.
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
Fine job? Bullshit, you can fill a hospital with the amount of psychological wrecks the military takes in and creates. And at times refuses to help.
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
I don't need to be an "armchair doctor" to notice an obvious trend.
Agressive psychopaths (A term used in some research on the matter) are the only kind of people who can forever survive active work in the military (as in killing and dying) without psychological help.
This is why agressive psychopaths are sometimes favored when choosing people for different special roles.
Psychopath is an archaic word. It implies a black or white metre.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35106909]Psychopath is an archaic word. It implies a black or white metre.[/QUOTE]Not really. Psychopat implies a lesser dependance on emotions.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;35091416]I have to wonder what drives these people to do this. I mean it's one thing if some psycho snaps and kills a bunch of people in his 2nd year of service, but this guy must've been serving for like 10 years to reach where he is.[/QUOTE]
You can snap at anytime
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;35106948]Not really. Psychopat implies a lesser dependance on emotions.[/QUOTE]
That's more anti-social personality disorder. Psychopath implies complete lack of emotions.
Psychopat
A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse.
(Psychiatry) a person afflicted with a personality disorder characterized by a tendency to commit antisocial and sometimes violent acts and a failure to feel guilt for such acts Also called sociopath
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35106064]Yeah, this is the ONLY time this EVER happened.
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
Fine job? Bullshit, you can fill a hospital with the amount of psychological wrecks the military takes in and creates. And at times refuses to help.
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
I don't need to be an "armchair doctor" to notice an obvious trend.[/QUOTE]
Because you work at a Military Treatment Facility right?
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35105684]You say the military does a pretty fine job, but the fact that soldiers have such serious mental issues before and after, shows that is not true.
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
Neither do you, so you can't act like you know him more.
Thanks for telling us that PTSD exists, that really helps
And that was in fucking WW2, mid-battle. Afghanistan isn't the pacific, so you can't compare the two.[/QUOTE]
UncleJimmemma's a Marine, I think he has some clue of what he's talking about.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35105684]You say the military does a pretty fine job, but the fact that soldiers have such serious mental issues before and after, shows that is not true.
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
Neither do you, so you can't act like you know him more.
Thanks for telling us that PTSD exists, that really helps
And that was in fucking WW2, mid-battle. Afghanistan isn't the pacific, so you can't compare the two.[/QUOTE]
I do know war, I've been there. My title underneath my name doesn't say [b]Marine[/b] for nothing. I've seen grown men cry and piss their pants in terror. YOU have no clue on any of this, I have first hand experience. Seeing your friends get torn apart by 155mm shells buried under the road only to get ripped to shreds from AK fire isn't that far off from the Pacific.
We have excellent mental health care. Problem is a lot of troops are too embarrassed or afraid to go. By the time actual seen issues come about most are out of the service.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;35113445]I do know war, I've been there. My title underneath my name doesn't say [b]Marine[/b] for nothing.[/quote]
Oh, you're a marine? I couldn't tell. I must have missed it the first 6000 times you've mentioned it. I like that you've made it your title, takes away your obligation of mentioning all the fucking time, now you just demand respect. Yeah, it says you're a marine. Big fucking whoop, not all marines have been in combat.
[quote]I've seen grown men cry and piss their pants in terror. YOU have no clue on any of this, I have first hand experience. Seeing your friends get torn apart by 155mm shells buried under the road only to get ripped to shreds from AK fire isn't that far off from the Pacific. [/quote]
No, I'm pretty sure the Japanese were just a bit more volatile. They are not comparable.
[quote]We have excellent mental health care.[/quote]
The 16 Afghans slaughtered by your guy would disagree with you.
[quote]Problem is a lot of troops are too embarrassed or afraid to go. By the time actual seen issues come about most are out of the service.[/QUOTE]
There is such a thing as post-service psychological care.
It's pretty clear where you stand on this, Jimmema, you can't stand knowing that one of your little soldier buddies went and outright slaughtered some children, so you start justifying it. "Oh HE'S the victim here. His PTSD made him do this. Even though I have no idea the full story, he did it because he's seen such horrors. Oh poor little American Soldier."
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=RichyZ;35113723]you know, it's best that you know what you are talking about before you enter an argument, it really does make you look less like an ass[/QUOTE]
Yeah, thanks for specifying as well as providing a well thought out argument.
This just shows me "I have no idea what I'm talking about, so I'll let others argue for me."
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=timman;35113434]UncleJimmemma's a Marine, I think he has some clue of what he's talking about.[/QUOTE]
And I deal with severely hurt people for a living, so I'm not exactly stranger to people in pain. Regardless, using it as a means to understanding PTSD is stupid.
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;35111787]Because you work at a Military Treatment Facility right?[/QUOTE]
And you do?
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35113736]Oh, you're a marine? I couldn't tell. I must have missed it the first 6000 times you've mentioned it. I like that you've made it your title, takes away your obligation of mentioning all the fucking time, now you just demand respect. Yeah, it says you're a marine. Big fucking whoop, not all marines have been in combat.
No, I'm pretty sure the Japanese were just a bit more volatile. They are not comparable.
The 16 Afghans slaughtered by your guy would disagree with you.
There is such a thing as post-service psychological care.
It's pretty clear where you stand on this, Jimmema, you can't stand knowing that one of your little soldier buddies went and outright slaughtered some children, so you start justifying it. "Oh HE'S the victim here. His PTSD made him do this. Even though I have no idea the full story, he did it because he's seen such horrors. Oh poor little American Soldier."
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
Yeah, thanks for specifying as well as providing a well thought out argument.
This just shows me "I have no idea what I'm talking about, so I'll let others argue for me."
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
And I deal with severely hurt people for a living, so I'm not exactly stranger to people in pain. Regardless, using it as a means to understanding PTSD is stupid.
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
And you do?[/QUOTE]
I could give two shits about some army ssgt who went bonkers. What you're telling me is that people who have been in the military 5+ years automatically have some magical aura around them that makes them impervious from psychological breaks downs. We're normal goddam people who joke around and cry when friends die, not some ultra hardcore heartless bastards who walk around with stone hearts and minds with single tracks.
When shit hits the fan it doesn't matter who's shooting the bullets at you, Japanese, Taliban, or otherwise, there is a psychological trigger that gets tripped in your brain. VBEDS and IED's can be anywhere, and all of a sudden the psychological aspect of what can kill you goes through the roof. This coupled with an enemy that looks and acts just like the civilian population creates an environment that is high stress and constantly changing. While the japanese put terror in the hearts of men with ferocity, the taliban do it by making it impossible to know whats going to happen next.
So you tell me how it goes the next time you get out on a battlefield and watch the humvee filled with your friends explode in front of you only to be met by a hail storm of bullets.
I don't give a damn what anyone else thinks here, being in combat makes you see things that you literally can't unsee. Until you experience it for yourself, you've got no context to base what your perception of what causes people to lose it.
FYI InvaiderNouga is a Navy Corpsman, he does work in a Military Treatment Facility. The mental health section to be precise.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35113736]Oh, you're a marine? I couldn't tell. I must have missed it the first 6000 times you've mentioned it. I like that you've made it your title, takes away your obligation of mentioning all the fucking time, now you just demand respect. Yeah, it says you're a marine. Big fucking whoop, not all marines have been in combat.
No, I'm pretty sure the Japanese were just a bit more volatile. They are not comparable.
The 16 Afghans slaughtered by your guy would disagree with you.
There is such a thing as post-service psychological care.
It's pretty clear where you stand on this, Jimmema, you can't stand knowing that one of your little soldier buddies went and outright slaughtered some children, so you start justifying it. "Oh HE'S the victim here. His PTSD made him do this. Even though I have no idea the full story, he did it because he's seen such horrors. Oh poor little American Soldier."
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
Yeah, thanks for specifying as well as providing a well thought out argument.
This just shows me "I have no idea what I'm talking about, so I'll let others argue for me."
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
And I deal with severely hurt people for a living, so I'm not exactly stranger to people in pain. Regardless, using it as a means to understanding PTSD is stupid.
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
And you do?[/QUOTE]
I work at the largest overseas Hospital the military owns, so yes I do. That's why there's a Japanese flag under my name. As Jimmema pointed out I am also a Hospital Corpsman Psychiatric Technician. So I'm sure I know a great deal more than you when it comes to military mental health. Im sure Jimmema is far more knowledgeable when it comes to these matters than you too. How many times have you been boots on the ground down range in the shit? Never? That's what I thought. Also, I think it's ignorant of you to say this was anything but a psychotic break due to a disorder, or a combat induced disorder. We service members don't wake up in the middle of the night with a thirst for blood and decide to slaughter 16 people, as much as you'd like to think. We're humans too.
And to think Australians are still in Afghanistan helping enforce nouveau-imperialism
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;35115964] We service members don't wake up in the middle of the night with a thirst for blood and decide to slaughter 16 people, as much as you'd like to think. We're humans too.[/QUOTE]
You're right there must be some rational reason.
That actually makes it worse.
brown person does it: terrorism
white person does it: mental illness
[QUOTE=Lazor;35118033]brown person does it: terrorism
white person does it: mental illness[/QUOTE]
Reversing this logic, you're saying that terrorists are mentally ill? :v:
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;35092409]Sorry to pull Godwin
But Hitler probably went insane due to shell-shock in WW1, and felt betrayed by the signing of the Treaty.[/QUOTE]
thats not godwin just because you mention hitler/nazis in a political argument doesn't mean you're pulling a godwin god dammit
[QUOTE=Kopimi;35118410]thats not godwin just because you mention hitler/nazis in a political argument doesn't mean you're pulling a godwin god dammit[/QUOTE]
Yes it is;
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."
son of a bitch
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;35115964]I work at the largest overseas Hospital the military owns, so yes I do. That's why there's a Japanese flag under my name.[/quote]
Yeah, how silly of me to not know you work at the largest overseas hospital the military owns because you're in Japan
I'm out of my fucking mind.
[quote]As Jimmema pointed out I am also a Hospital Corpsman Psychiatric Technician. So I'm sure I know a great deal more than you when it comes to military mental health.[/quote]
The human brain doesn't split into sections based on whatever job it takes. There is no such thing as military mental health, neither is there police mental health or Fireman mental health. There is just the human brain. Of course there are situations, which these jobs may take on, but to just tell me "I'm well versed in military mental health" shows me you're not exactly a genius on the matter. You're a corpsman. Don't generalise your job. I work in EMS, I can help you out of a mangled car and stabilise you. But I don't know how to do surgery. I'm not going to say "well I know more about surgery because I bring them there"
Even then, what the fuck does it matter? You two are just bragging about how well versed you are in understanding a soldier mentality. This isn't even my point.
[quote]Im sure Jimmema is far more knowledgeable when it comes to these matters than you too. How many times have you been boots on the ground down range in the shit? Never? That's what I thought.[/quote]
Never, because I'm not an idiot.
[quote]Also, I think it's ignorant of you to say this was anything but a psychotic break due to a disorder, or a combat induced disorder. [/quote]
I never said such a thing.
[quote]We service members don't wake up in the middle of the night with a thirst for blood and decide to slaughter 16 people, as much as you'd like to think. [/quote]
You may want to rephrase that, because a service member did exactly that.
[quote]We're humans too.[/QUOTE]
As are the people you soldiers murder. But you don't care about them, do you?
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;35115224]I could give two shits about some army ssgt who went bonkers. What you're telling me is that people who have been in the military 5+ years automatically have some magical aura around them that makes them impervious from psychological breaks downs.[/quote]
I would love to find out where I said that or even implied it. Seriously, what?
[quote]We're normal goddam people who joke around and cry when friends die, not some ultra hardcore heartless bastards who walk around with stone hearts and minds with single tracks.[/quote]
Normal people who joke, cry and also murder other human beings for some bullshit cause - you forgot that little titbit.
[quote]When shit hits the fan it doesn't matter who's shooting the bullets at you, Japanese, Taliban, or otherwise, there is a psychological trigger that gets tripped in your brain. VBEDS and IED's can be anywhere, and all of a sudden the psychological aspect of what can kill you goes through the roof. This coupled with an enemy that looks and acts just like the civilian population creates an environment that is high stress and constantly changing. While the japanese put terror in the hearts of men with ferocity, the taliban do it by making it impossible to know whats going to happen next.[/quote]
That's because the Taliban are civilian populations. These are insurgents, not some organised military. Of course, some are more than others, like Malakand. This is the result of your military intervention. You wanted a war so badly, well, there, you got it. Your fault for staying in it.
[quote]So you tell me how it goes the next time you get out on a battlefield and watch the humvee filled with your friends explode in front of you only to be met by a hail storm of bullets.[/quote]
You're just babbling at this point. I don't even know what your point is anymore.
[quote]I don't give a damn what anyone else thinks here, being in combat makes you see things that you literally can't unsee. Until you experience it for yourself, you've got no context to base what your perception of what causes people to lose it. [/quote]
You're not the only people who deal with death or horribly violent imagery.
[editline]13th March 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=RichyZ;35119220][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx7Z5B3wWmE[/media]
hehe, at least this ban will have meaning i suppose[/QUOTE]
Oh hehe, you got me with a quote on youtube.
I like this, are you implying soldiers don't kill people?
You can't call me stupid, and just not argue anything. fuck, you did this earlier in the thread to.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35119273]I would love to find out where I said that or even implied it. Seriously, what?
Normal people who joke, cry and also murder other human beings for some bullshit cause - you forgot that little titbit.
That's because the Taliban are civilian populations. These are insurgents, not some organised military. Of course, some are more than others, like Malakand. This is the result of your military intervention. You wanted a war so badly, well, there, you got it. Your fault for staying in it.
You're just babbling at this point. I don't even know what your point is anymore.
You're not the only people who deal with death or horribly violent imagery.
[editline]13th March 2012[/editline]
Oh hehe, you got me with a quote on youtube.
I like this, are you implying soldiers don't kill people?
You can't call me stupid, and just not argue anything. fuck, you did this earlier in the thread to.[/QUOTE]
You made the clame that the state of the war isn't what caused him to do such things, as if the lack of combat makes it any less real.
Pretty much everything you wrote after that compleatly detests from the argument over the psychological aspect of war and turned it towards an off topic political bout that I don't give a damn about getting involved with.
Seeing someone get run over by a car onces is a lot different than being shot at constantly and seeing people become torn apart on a regular basis.
I didn't say it wasn't the state of war, I was just providing alternative answers to it other than "he has PTSD". Everyone was jumping up trying to his defence trying to act like the guy who did it was the victim. For all I know, he could have had the worse case of PTSD imaginable and he went berserk. Al Jazeera, Huffington post and a few others are saying he could have had brain damage.
Fuck, now a few news outlets are saying it's a couple of drunk American soldiers according to eye-witnesses.
See, what I'm doing here is not jumping to conclusions. I'm examining what's out and making inferences on what's reported. Nor am I trying to justify this.
I do not know the statistics. Military induced PTSD being the starting point for murder is something I've never heard of before. Non-military, yeah, it's been the fulcrum for a few serial killers and murders. So it's entirely possible, I'm saying, simply, don't jump to conclusions.
And do me a favour, stop using your job as a moral compass in an argument. You're paid and trained to shoot people, you don't have a culture, you don't have any moral obligation, nor are you a instant hero/good person (or bad person for that matter).
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35122755]I didn't say it wasn't the state of war, I was just providing alternative answers to it other than "he has PTSD". Everyone was jumping up trying to his defence trying to act like the guy who did it was the victim. For all I know, he could have had the worse case of PTSD imaginable and he went berserk. Al Jazeera, Huffington post and a few others are saying he could have had brain damage.
Fuck, now a few news outlets are saying it's a couple of drunk American soldiers according to eye-witnesses.
See, what I'm doing here is not jumping to conclusions. I'm examining what's out and making inferences on what's reported. Nor am I trying to justify this.
I do not know the statistics. Military induced PTSD being the starting point for murder is something I've never heard of before. Non-military, yeah, it's been the fulcrum for a few serial killers and murders. So it's entirely possible, I'm saying, simply, don't jump to conclusions.
And do me a favour, stop using your job as a moral compass in an argument. You're paid and trained to shoot people, you don't have a culture, you don't have any moral obligation, nor are you a instant hero/good person (or bad person for that matter).[/QUOTE]
Just as I was initally makeing speculation off of personal experiance with the limited information I had at the time. Now ofcourse the whole thing has changed since we're presented with new information.
Our argument began as my speculation and evolved into an argument over what can cause people to snap.
Lastly, saying we don't have a culture is practacally an insult.
Culture: 1. artistic and intellectual pursuits 2. development of the mind 3. state or form of civilization
We have our own pursuits, we have our own develpoment of a state of mind, we in ourselves are a form of civilisation. We have our own history, our own rituals, our own community of which has evolved over hundreds of years. We have a sense of moral obligation, and while what is seen on the media discredits all that we say and do we try to withold a standard of excellence amongst ourselves. Sadly the actions of few outweight the words of us many upstanding men and women in the military. To say that we have no culture is like saying you made mud without water.
Being in the military doesn't make us heros or great people. We are avarage people just like everyone else.
I never doubted PTSD can't cause people to snap, my point still stands that information must be examined before trying to provide excuses
You paint a nice picture for an organisation that has been used to do so much wrong with so much wasted money for all the wrong people. You may think you're a small civilisation, but you're not. You're just hired thugs on the tax payer dime. A LOT of tax payer dimes.
Buzzwords and pretend rituals accompanied by guns isn't a culture. It's just a job that takes itself too seriously.
War is hell.
This shouldn't be justified by any means. PTSD/brain damage, or being drunk serve as an explanation but not Justification, I don't think anyone disagrees with that. This person, if suffering from mental trauma needs to get the help he needs, but I don't think that should excuse him from the full extent of the law. He murdered 16 people. There's no excuse for that. Not only did he murder 16 people, but he destroyed what trust we had left in the people of Afghanistan and put potentially many, many others, both civilian and military at risk.
If the cause turns out to be a result of mental trauma then there needs to be a full investigation why such a thing can still occur.
[QUOTE=Drsalvador;35091619]Unfortunately, the psychiatric care they have for soldiers is woefully sub-par.[/QUOTE]
This is very true. Just recently the commander of a large military hospital got in massive trouble because he told the doctors to stop diagnosing patients with PTSD because it was "Costing Too Much Money".
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35119197]Yeah, how silly of me to not know you work at the largest overseas hospital the military owns because you're in Japan
I'm out of my fucking mind.
The human brain doesn't split into sections based on whatever job it takes. There is no such thing as military mental health, neither is there police mental health or Fireman mental health. There is just the human brain. Of course there are situations, which these jobs may take on, but to just tell me "I'm well versed in military mental health" shows me you're not exactly a genius on the matter. You're a corpsman. Don't generalise your job. I work in EMS, I can help you out of a mangled car and stabilise you. But I don't know how to do surgery. I'm not going to say "well I know more about surgery because I bring them there"
Even then, what the fuck does it matter? You two are just bragging about how well versed you are in understanding a soldier mentality. This isn't even my point.
Never, because I'm not an idiot.
I never said such a thing.
You may want to rephrase that, because a service member did exactly that.
As are the people you soldiers murder. But you don't care about them, do you?[/QUOTE]
Okay so you're an EMT-B? Guess what I am? I'm a registered Psychiatric Technician (in the civillian world and the military world), an EMT-B, and I'm essentialy an LPN (Military healthcare providers do alot more than their civillian counterparts). So no, I'm not just a "Corpsman" I'm an 8485 Psychiatric and I do know what I'm talking about.
Maybe I shouldn't have said "Military Mental Health" since you took it completely the wrong way. Let me rephrase that, Military Mental Health Care.
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