• Slovakian castle ''Krasna Horka'' on fire
    425 replies, posted
Some people in this thread: >Legitimately accuse two men of the same racial origin(except white) of a crime, "wtf man? Are you a racist or something?" >Legitimately accuse two men of different racial origins of a crime, "Yea bro we should totally do something about these horrible people." I mean do you guys know what that actually means? Racism means that a person believes their race is superior to another group's race. And as far as I can tell nobody here is saying that gypsies(as a physical race) are inferior to white people. For example, nobody here would under no circumstance(I hope) say that a hard working man who's parents were gypsies, is somehow less able to do the job than a white man or a black man. That would be racist. Criticizing these people who are actually being a huge burden for everyone around them(and at the same time happens to be of the same race). Is in fact not racism.
One of my relatives took a picture of it, quite sad really.
[QUOTE=FPSMango;35084469] I mean do you guys know what that actually means? Racism means that a person believes their race is superior to another group's race.[/QUOTE] yeah no this definition is actually wrong dude. racism is any sort of prejudicial attitude or belief based on race or ethnicity, it's not necessarily racial supremacy.
[QUOTE=dass;35082945]Stealing, killing people and selling drugs isn't a culture.[/QUOTE] yes it is.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;35084598]yeah no this definition is actually wrong dude. racism is any sort of prejudicial attitude or belief based on race or ethnicity, it's not necessarily racial supremacy.[/QUOTE] actually racism is prejudice combined with power
Sad to see the castle burning, but fuck that neighborhood on the first page...how the fuck do people live that way?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;35084452]Wrong. The farming diet was crucial in that it gave much greater stability and security than hunting did. Food acquired by farming was often kept much more easily than hunted food. Dried grain could be kept for ages as long as it was dry. Farmers always would have a surplus (Because survival depended on it, for uncertain times and keeping a stock of seeds.) Hunter groups for most of their lives were half-starved, suffering from many brutal injuries that would lead to early painful deaths without proper medical attention. The constant search for food was what eventually caused farming to come about in the first place, as people were so desperate they turned to eating grass seeds. People before the invention of farming, more commonly died at earlier ages from more violent deaths, and were generally malnourished. [url]http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1467-3010.2000.00019.x/abstract;jsessionid=4C98D86001E7A23EA1A290C16A7E437F.d01t04[/url] These people had high infant mortality, harsh lives, and had to spend days tracking and searching for food. The irregular intake of varied random foods at random times led to severe problems later too.[/QUOTE] I don't think is necessarily true, records from that period are vague and [url=http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/nutrition-and-health-in-agriculturalists-and-hunter-gatherers/]for every source either of us can post supporting one view[/url], the other can post a contradictory source without much difficulty. this really isn't a thread for arguing about prehistoric humanity. the point I'm trying to make is that I disagree with your premise that technology is a sliding scale which can only advance in one direction and which also is an inherent good. I don't think that's true at all. I don't agree that "technology" is something that necessarily improves the society that develops it because technology can be anything and is merely a product of the attitudes and priorities of the societies that develop it.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;35084598]yeah no this definition is actually wrong dude. racism is any sort of prejudicial attitude or belief based on race or ethnicity, it's not necessarily racial supremacy.[/QUOTE] But is it really, can you come up with any source that says that is is? Because if you look for the definition of racism, the most obvious ones like Wikipedia and [url]www.thefreedictionary.com[/url] will state that is is should mainly be used towards groups of people of the same race hence race - ism. I won't say I wasn't smarter to have sources in my own post, making it my own opinion, but unless you correctly source your own post, you can't say that you are correct.
[QUOTE=Lazor;35084622]actually racism is prejudice combined with power[/QUOTE] no, discrimination is the result of making choices based on racist attitudes.
[QUOTE=Lazor;35084622]actually racism is prejudice combined with power[/QUOTE] Counts for you too, can you come up with a source for that? Oops automerge broken.
[QUOTE=FPSMango;35084701]But is it really, can you come up with any source that says that is is? Because if you look for the definition of racism, the most obvious ones like Wikipedia and [url]www.thefreedictionary.com[/url] will state that is is should mainly be used towards groups of people of the same race hence race - ism. I won't say I wasn't smarter to have sources in my own post, making it my own opinion, but unless you correctly source your own post, you can't say that you are correct.[/QUOTE] the dictionary definition isn't really even useful in sociological discussion. [url=http://www.edchange.org/multicultural/papers/caleb/racism.html]racism is a system of power and prejudice[/url]
[QUOTE=FPSMango;35084701]But is it really, can you come up with any source that says that is is? Because if you look for the definition of racism, the most obvious ones like Wikipedia and [url]www.thefreedictionary.com[/url] will state that is is should mainly be used towards groups of people of the same race hence race - ism. I won't say I wasn't smarter to have sources in my own post, making it my own opinion, but unless you correctly source your own post, you can't say that you are correct.[/QUOTE] well [url=http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/1998-10/WUiS-GSRD-071098.php]race doesn't actually exist[/url] so whenever we talk about the groups which are victims of racism we're actually talking about ethnic, social, or cultural groups which in one way or another have been defined as a race (this is why saying "they're a culture/ethnicity not a race" is wrong and people should stop doing it). And [url=http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism]since any sort of prejudice based on "race"[/url] can constitute racism, then yes, what we're dealing with here is racism.
So, I just registered after seeing how heated the thread went, and in how wrong direction. I don't know how many of you lived or from anywhere in Central Europe where this problem is originating nowadays, but those who are will see my point. I am from Hungary myself and I saw enough for myself about these people (but still not closely all of the problems) so let me clear up for all of you who speak about these things knowing only what someone told or experienced maybe. This problem is not with a race, neither with an ethnic group. In Hungary all the people recognise the separate meanings behind the words ROMA and CIGÁNY. ROMA, so to speak, may be the gipsy you heard about, they might be not so bad or not bad at all, some or most of them tries to mingle and go for the jobs and education, but since gipsy traditions are very heavily influential, even in the best and numerous families of these gipsy people will probably keep to an alternative living, a great family under a leading elderly man. On the other hand there are the CIGÁNYs who in English don't have a real translation because they are mostly isolated in Central European countries and there too, mostly in the rural, non-developing areas. These CIGÁNY people are definitely having problems with authority and not willing to get accustomed to laws and regulations, nor to accept and take on any norms of the societies they are surrounded with. As a consequence villages and little towns where their numbers got over 50% are constantly losing their other national population and the remaining are suffering great losses countable in crime but non-countable in the terror and distorted view of life they gain by living surrounded with these people. I could write on much more now, but be assured, all of you, who never lived a life like that, never saw those streets, never had to go home day by day to there, and never had your house or gardens broken into several times a season, that you should not talk about racism and such when you hear people going on about "those kind of gipsies." It is not racism. It is raw and unadulterated facts that you can not justify with our (a whole nation's/govt's) unwillingness for help. Not, when gipsy people have extra support in education and healthcare, extra government and family support, an own party and lobby, and I could go on with all the special measures that have been taken so they just have to try to settle with not stealing and try to work. We, and here I mean Hungarians, would have been happy with them if they would just stopped stealing and massive crime (which is also countable: in all 50% or more gipys towns the average deaths of crime are 20000 more than any other places the last decade). No, it is not that we millions are the bad guys. There are occurences where the supposedly opressed by racism are the ones wo will refuse to change their ways. CIGÁNYs are these examples, and I am totally wasted by the fate that my dear home suffers greatly from it too...
But racism is a word like everything else, it doesn't change meaning based on the context of the conversation. IMO you can't just dilute the word like that and say that it also takes in account culture and beliefs. When the word obviously was meant originally for race based discrimination. That's why we have words like ethnocentrism and elitism. For example if it is indeed "a system of power and prejudice" does that mean that race -ism is all types of prejudice? Cultural and racial? That's pretty vague if you ask me. [editline]11th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=SigmaLambda;35084776]well [url=http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/1998-10/WUiS-GSRD-071098.php]race doesn't actually exist[/url] so whenever we talk about the groups which are victims of racism we're actually talking about ethnic, social, or cultural groups which in one way or another have been defined as a race (this is why saying "they're a culture/ethnicity not a race" is wrong and people should stop doing it). And [url=http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism]since any sort of prejudice based on "race"[/url] can constitute racism, then yes, what we're dealing with here is racism.[/QUOTE] How can you use the word racism if you believe that race doesn't actually exist? It's [b]race[/b]-ism!
So guys, I didn't read through the whole thread, but I just want to check something. I saw in the first page there was a lot of discrimination against gypsies. Let me take a wild guess here and say that thisispain came in and started debating prejudice against gypsies, and the majority of this thread has been thisispain and whatever supporters he may have vs those prejudiced against gypsies, the former calling out that it's racism and wrong, the latter claiming it's not racism because gypsies aren't a race and it's true. Am I close? Agree if I am, disagree if I'm not.
how about you just not post instead of doing whatever that self-aggrandizing bullshit was
[QUOTE=Gmod4ever;35085157] Let me take a wild guess here and say that thisispain came in and started debating prejudice against gypsies[/QUOTE] since when have i not debated against prejudice of all forms?
Oh look, it's the monthly racism shitstorm thread.
Haha, I love when opinion heavy threads go heywire and everyone gets at each other's throats. This is better than video games!
[QUOTE=Khaoos;35084916]Not, when gipsy people have extra support in education and healthcare, extra government and family support, an own party and lobby, and I could go on with all the special measures that have been taken so they just have to try to settle with not stealing and try to work. [/QUOTE] lol i've read the exact opposite about gypsies in Hungary, with your own government reaching a different conclusion: [url]http://www.mfa.gov.hu/NR/rdonlyres/05DF7A51-99A5-4BFE-B8A5-210344C02B1A/0/Roma_en.pdf[/url]
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;35078620]That's disgusting. Though around here where I live, where it's tidy, the streets would be littered with cigarette stumps and other trash were they not swiped [b]every day[/b] by various different companies.[/QUOTE] I couldn't agree more. I used to work on a company like this and one week me and some other dudes had the shift in the part of town where gypsies live. The most horrible week ever at work.
[QUOTE=thisispain;35085245]lol i've read the exact opposite about gypsies in Hungary, with your own government reaching a different conclusion: [url]http://www.mfa.gov.hu/NR/rdonlyres/05DF7A51-99A5-4BFE-B8A5-210344C02B1A/0/Roma_en.pdf[/url][/QUOTE] Citing that given work, where you've read the exact opposite of what I said: "Political decisionmakers realised that there was no chance of dealing with the situation without special state assistance promoting the social integration of the Roma." "Office for National and Ethnic Minorities' (ONEM), the primary task of which was to prepare government decisions on minorities' policy, coordinate and set out the fundamental principles for policies towards minorities." "In a manner unique in Europe, this Act grants individual and collective rights to the 13 minorities recognized in Hungary, including the Roma, allowing for personal autonomy and the establishment of local or nationwide self-governing bodies." "The Minorities Act is of historical importance for the Gypsy population in Hungary as it was the first measure to recognise this group of people as an ethnic minority thereby assuring, apart from individual rights, the opportunity for Gypsies to organize collectively and set up local and nationwide minority self-governments." "An important legal regulation directly affecting the position of the Gypsy population in Hungary is Act LXXIX of 1993 on Public Education, which was amended in 1996 and 2003 to provide the national and local minority self-governing bodies with the opportunity of founding and maintaining educational institutions, and which defined the fight against segregation in schools as an objective." Okay, I don't even want to go on. It is clear that you read something else, please give me the correct link, because this paper does support my claim to the fullest...
you make it sound as if there's no discrimination or economic disparity among them. obviously no matter how many government actions there are there's always going to be issues when there's discrimination and economic disparity.
[QUOTE=thisispain;35085212]since when have i not debated against prejudice of all forms?[/QUOTE] Never. The point I'm trying to make is we had this [b]same exact thread[/b] a few months ago. That's all I'm trying to say. :v:
[QUOTE=thisispain;35085508]you make it sound as if there's no discrimination or economic disparity among them. obviously no matter how many government actions there are there's always going to be issues when there's discrimination and economic disparity.[/QUOTE] The paper I cited states it like that. I just cited to show my claims there were true in the fact that there is govt support going on (which you saw the other way: I guess because I know the full picture and I realise when do I read the nice part of the picture written in commission to a govt that was voted to lead (among others of course) by the support of the vast majority among gypsies. My original post was about how unreally divided their communities are and the widespreadness and graveness of the problem even though there is a govt presence to aid it. Even the present head of govt is a gipsy by family origins, and in the EU detachment leadership there are gipsy people. That shows there would be no problem with them if there would be the roma group, who still heavily live by their traditions but they do conform to Hungarian living and take community action. Cigány people do not do that, and are not willing to take up any ways leading to solution. The only solutions they had so far were completely abandoned villages by other nationals where the place run down so rapidly it took years to reduce to complete abandonment...
[QUOTE=FPSMango;35084981] How can you use the word racism if you believe that race doesn't actually exist? It's [b]race[/b]-ism![/QUOTE] I explained that in the very same post.
-snip- Khaoos explained it perfectly already and he's also totally right
The vast majority of posts in this thread have been racist or otherwise atrocious, and frankly I'm not surprised.
[QUOTE=Megafan;35086861]The vast majority of posts in this thread have been racist or otherwise atrocious, and frankly I'm not surprised.[/QUOTE] Read up on the Gypsies, then move to and live in Slovakia for 5 years in an area that has Gypsies in or around it, [I]then[/I]come back and say that these people are being racist.
[QUOTE=hoodoo456;35086886]Read up on the Gypsies, then move to and live in Slovakia for 5 years in an area that has Gypsies in or around it, [I]then[/I]come back and say that these people are being racist.[/QUOTE] Yep, can't comment on anything if you don't personally live there. I'll inform the United Nations, let them know they can pack it in.
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