• Confederate Memorial Vandalized in Charleston
    507 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48049460]Not what I was implying at all. I don't believe to any degree that Confederate soldiers are evil by association. I have even openly stated that yes, I am aware of the war crimes committed by the Union, and find them to be just as ugly an organization. How can you be this obtuse? Do you literally not understand the concept of perspective, perception, and symbolism? Are these alien to you? You are so damn obtuse.[/QUOTE] If you don't believe in evil by association how can you with a straight face support vandalizing a monument that exists solely to memorialize dead Confederate [B]soldiers[/B], not any political ideals held or celebrated by the political entity of the Confederacy?
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48049512]If you don't believe in evil by association how can you with a straight face support vandalizing a monument that exists solely to memorialize dead Confederate [B]soldiers[/B], not any political ideals held or celebrated by the political entity of the Confederacy?[/QUOTE] I do not support evil by association, and never have I attempted to. You want to moan about "people putting words into your mouth," why don't you quit doing the same?
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48049540]Neither do I, and never have I attempted to. You want to moan about "people putting words into your mouth," why don't you quit doing the same?[/QUOTE] But you are, you're sitting here justifying vandalizing this memorial along with Crypto and Lambert and whoever else. Am I attributing your posts to someone else or have you not justified vandalizing this memorial?
Hey did you not read my post where I said those soldiers were not slave owners
[QUOTE=Lambeth;48049563]Hey did you not read my post where I said those soldiers were not slave owners[/QUOTE] I certainly read your posts where you said it didn't matter and that it was still okay to vandalize their memorial for foggy reasons.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48049548]But you are, you're sitting here justifying vandalizing this memorial along with Crypto and Lambert and whoever else. Am I attributing your posts to someone else or have you not justified vandalizing this memorial?[/QUOTE] no, he isn't.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48049568]I certainly read your posts where you said it didn't matter and that it was still okay to vandalize their memorial for foggy reasons.[/QUOTE] I guess at the end of the day I care more for people currently alive than people who died 150 years ago.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48049548]But you are, you're sitting here justifying vandalizing this memorial along with Crypto and Lambert and whoever else.[/QUOTE] Yes, I am. Because ultimately, that monument does not represent individual people, it represents the Confederacy. It represents a set of ideas and values that time has stripped away all nuance from and turned into a black and white issue in the eyes of many people, and especially in minorities. This vandalism is not an attack on individuals, not a statement against whatever individual people that monument was constructed for, or their personal beliefs, but against what the Confederacy has come to emotionally represent: white supremacy, racial oppression, exploitation, slavery-- everything that black Americans are fighting to tear down completely. You are examining a symbolic gesture against a symbolic monument in terms of its literal and physical impact, and that is a deeply misguided way of thinking.
[QUOTE=Ownederd;48048925]so lemme get this straight: according to grenadiac, it's bad to tag monuments if it's disrespectful, but if it isn't, it's perfectly ok what?[/QUOTE] grenadiac wasn't saying you should tag a memorial with something sarcastic, he was saying that he is ok with someone tagging the memorial of someone specifically involved, known to be bad. he does not think tagging memorials to the soldiers is good. his "To Nathan Bedford Forrest, founder of the KKK and hero of the Confederacy, wearer of a totally sweet beard and a kooky haircut" bit was supposed to be the (jokey) plaque of the statue to Nathan Bedford Forrest, which he said he wouldn't have a problem with seeing tag, that wasn't supposed to be a sarcastic tag.
[QUOTE=Ownederd;48049569]no, he isn't.[/QUOTE] No, I am justifying its vandalism. It was a harmless symbolic action resulting in no permanent damage or injuries. The only things threatened were ideals and perceptions. That is protest done right, in my book.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48049600]Yes, I am. Because ultimately, that monument does not represent individual people, it represents the Confederacy. It represents a set of ideas and values that time has stripped away all nuance from and turned into a black and white issue in the eyes of many people, and especially in minorities. This vandalism is not an attack on individuals, not a statement against whatever individual people that monument was constructed for, or their personal beliefs, but against what the Confederacy has come to emotionally represent: white supremacy, racial oppression, exploitation, slavery-- everything that black Americans are fighting to tear down completely. You are examining a symbolic gesture against a symbolic monument in terms of its literal and physical impact, and that is a deeply misguided way of thinking.[/QUOTE] I can see what the intent of the vandalism was and I don't mean to downplay the importance of that. My argument is, summarized- a) The memorial doesn't stand for the Confederacy's political views, it stands for those Confederate soldiers who died at Charleston. b) Vandalizing that specific memorial doesn't add credibility to the tagger (to me) or to the message (in the eyes of remaining CSA nostalgics) because it is addressed specifically to dead soldiers. If you disagree philosophically on what the monument is for then that's what we should be discussing because I think we both agree that racism is certainly alive and well and that institutionalized racism is not dead.
Nobody had a problem with the statue before this issue but because some people died its a huge issue. Instead of vandalism that solves nothing, how about a protest to get the statue removed or sent somewhere else? You cant justify vandalism when there are other ways to get your point across.
[QUOTE=mark6789;48049663]Nobody had a problem with the statue before this issue but because some people died its a huge issue. Instead of vandalism that solves nothing, how about a protest to get the statue removed or sent somewhere else? You cant justify vandalism when there are other ways to get your point across.[/QUOTE] I'm sure people had a problem with it before, but I don't think that they were necessarily right... there are definitely statues that actually actively memorialize the CSA itself and hail some of its most awful people as heroes. This one isn't about that. It's just for nameless, faceless soldiers who stood and fought to keep Charleston from being razed.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48045093]They may not have intentionally been fighting for the ideals of the Confederacy, but by associating themselves with the Confederacy and defending it, they are indirectly associating themselves with it.[/QUOTE]This is the same logic that Nazi-hunters use to justify putting 90 year old Aushwitz janitors to death for crimes against humanity, just let it fucking go
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48049614]No, I am justifying its vandalism. It was a harmless symbolic action resulting in no permanent damage or injuries. The only things threatened were ideals and perceptions. That is protest done right, in my book.[/QUOTE] "Ideals and perceptions" The monument is for dead soldiers for fucks sake. Not for the Confederacy itself.
Man, I go to sleep for a few hours and during all of those hours, the same people are still having the same problem understanding how the soldiers and the ideals they fought for were totally inseparable, and a monument honoring the soldiers also honors the values that they fought for and the monument itself is a symbol of those racist values. But at the end of the day there really is no arguing with these folks. They don't want to acknowledge that they're racist and that their great grandfather that died in the civil war was also probably very racist and fought for a racist cause. You put that fact in their face and they're like "uhm sweetie : ) where does it say on the memorial that the soldiers owned slaves : ) race is stupid anyway it's just the color of your skin" Hey, guess what? White people and black people are different. People that come from Europe have a different culture than the people that come from Africa. Race isn't just skin color, it's history, culture, beliefs, ideals. The Confederacy and the ideals that it stood for are a huge negative part in Black history, because they stand for the systematic oppression of their race. Racism is real, it's still around today. You don't notice it because you aren't affected by it, but it's still around. The Confederacy is a symbol of racism, the statue honors Confederate soldiers and thereby honors the things the Confederacy fought for, and that offends Black Americans on a cultural level. It's a statue symbolizing historical systematic oppression of their race. Also, quick aside, I think it's funny how the adamant defenders of the Confederacy keep coming back after "QUITTING THIS THREAD FOR THE LAST TIME." It's almost as if the suggestion that you might be racist just keeps eating away at your mind and you can't help but come back to make your hollow broken record of an argument to convince others (read: yourselves) that you actually aren't racist, it's just black people and people that sympathize with black people that are the idiots.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48050220]Man, I go to sleep for a few hours and during all of those hours, the same people are still having the same problem understanding how the soldiers and the ideals they fought for were totally inseparable, and a monument honoring the soldiers also honors the values that they fought for and the monument itself is a symbol of those racist values. But at the end of the day there really is no arguing with these folks. They don't want to acknowledge that they're racist and that their great grandfather that died in the civil war was also probably very racist and fought for a racist cause. You put that fact in their face and they're like "uhm sweetie : ) where does it say on the memorial that the soldiers owned slaves : ) race is stupid anyway it's just the color of your skin" Hey, guess what? White people and black people are different. People that come from Europe have a different culture than the people that come from Africa. Race isn't just skin color, it's history, culture, beliefs, ideals. The Confederacy and the ideals that it stood for are a huge negative part in Black history, because they stand for the systematic oppression of their race. Racism is real, it's still around today. You don't notice it because you aren't affected by it, but it's still around. The Confederacy is a symbol of racism, the statue honors Confederate soldiers and thereby honors the things the Confederacy fought for, and that offends Black Americans on a cultural level. It's a statue symbolizing historical systematic oppression of their race. Also, quick aside, I think it's funny how the adamant defenders of the Confederacy keep coming back after "QUITTING THIS THREAD FOR THE LAST TIME." It's almost as if the suggestion that you might be racist just keeps eating away at your mind and you can't help but come back to make your hollow broken record of an argument to convince others (read: yourselves) that you actually aren't racist, it's just black people and people that sympathize with black people that are the idiots.[/QUOTE] This may actually be the worst and least accurate post I've seen so far
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48049636]I can see what the intent of the vandalism was and I don't mean to downplay the importance of that. My argument is, summarized- a) The memorial doesn't stand for the Confederacy's political views, it stands for those Confederate soldiers who died at Charleston. b) Vandalizing that specific memorial doesn't add credibility to the tagger (to me) or to the message (in the eyes of remaining CSA nostalgics) because it is addressed specifically to dead soldiers. If you disagree philosophically on what the monument is for then that's what we should be discussing because I think we both agree that racism is certainly alive and well and that institutionalized racism is not dead.[/QUOTE] It isn't about adding credibility to the message, it's about getting the message seen, and having it seen in the intended light (in this case, as a rebellious act against the status quo). It's about provoking discussion. You are free to disagree with the method, but I find it symbolically relevant, appropriate in its literal impact (the paint scrubbed off, no damage was done), and effective in meeting its goal. After all, here we are. With enough people talking about "black lives matter," the supporter base will grow, the movement will advance, and so on and so forth.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48050228]This may actually be the worst and least accurate post I've seen so far[/QUOTE] "I don't have anything of value to say because the person in question already pointed out that I'm repeating myself, so I'm just going to attack the argument without actually making any specific points."
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48050250]"I don't have anything of value to say because the person in question already pointed out that I'm repeating myself, so I'm just going to attack the argument without actually making any specific points."[/QUOTE] "I'm a jackass who refuses to acknowledge that all white people south of the Mason-Dixon line actually aren't racists who love lynching black people and people telling me otherwise are getting tired of repeating themselves" "All confederates were evil racists who stood for evil racism and if you disagree with me you're an evil racist!!!" [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Flaming" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=OvB;48044542]Defacing monuments isn't good. History is important.[/QUOTE] While I don't condone this particular case, we can have history without monuments. Did you also argue this about Ukraine tearing down the remaining soviet era monuments, recently?
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48050240]It isn't about adding credibility to the message, it's about getting the message seen, and having it seen in the intended light (in this case, as a rebellious act against the status quo). It's about provoking discussion. You are free to disagree with the method, but I find it symbolically relevant, appropriate in its literal impact (the paint scrubbed off, no damage was done), and effective in meeting its goal. After all, here we are. With enough people talking about "black loves matter," the supporter base will grow, the movement will advance, and so on and so forth.[/QUOTE] Symbols are beyond the people in this thread, dude. If they don't understand how the memorial itself is a symbol of racism, they won't understand the significance of the message "black lives matter." [QUOTE=Grenadiac;48050255]"I'm a jackass who refuses to acknowledge that all white people south of the Mason-Dixon line actually aren't racists who love lynching black people and people telling me otherwise are getting tired of repeating themselves" "All confederates were evil racists who stood for evil racism and if you disagree with me you're an evil racist!!!"[/QUOTE] Name-calling isn't nice. Not all white people that live in the South are racists, but there sure as hell are a lot of them! And a lot of them like to think that they're "not racist, but"
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48049614]No, I am justifying its vandalism.[/QUOTE] Instead of settling problems like a decent person, you'd rather people go about it like a bunch of animals. I don't like your ideas, imma go spraypaint your house because it's a harmless symbolic action
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48050255]"I'm a jackass who refuses to acknowledge that all white people south of the Mason-Dixon line actually aren't racists who love lynching black people and people telling me otherwise are getting tired of repeating themselves" "All confederates were evil racists who stood for evil racism and if you disagree with me you're an evil racist!!!"[/QUOTE] Strawmanning isn't a way of having a discussion. Educate yourself.
[QUOTE=Michael haxz;48050275]Instead of settling problems like a decent person, you'd rather people go about it like a bunch of animals. I don't like your ideas, imma go spraypaint your house because it's a harmless symbolic action[/QUOTE] protesting, no matter how relevant it is, hasn't really bothered to respect defined laws or the such because the usual intent is to do away with current trends
That's a shitty thing to do. Not all Confederate soldiers were evil slave-lashing KKK followers, more than a few enlisted because they wanted to defend their homelands - especially after the Union committed to a scorched-earth policy through some areas. [QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48049614]No, I am justifying its vandalism. It was a harmless symbolic action resulting in no permanent damage or injuries. The only things threatened were ideals and perceptions. That is protest done right, in my book.[/QUOTE] Look, I get what you're trying to say but honestly, based on that logic we may as well go and deface Vietnam Memorials because many would argue the US had no right to be there.
[QUOTE=GordonZombie;48050298]That's a shitty thing to do. Not all Confederate soldiers were evil slave-lashing KKK followers, more than a few enlisted because they wanted to defend their homelands - especially after the Union committed to a scorched-earth policy through some areas. [B]Look, I get what you're trying to say but honestly, based on that logic we may as well go and deface Vietnam Memorials because many would argue the US had no right to be there[/B].[/QUOTE] stop making these kinds of comparisons tia. they are anything but relevant to the argument, or the situation
[QUOTE=Michael haxz;48050275]Instead of settling problems like a decent person, you'd rather people go about it like a bunch of animals. I don't like your ideas, imma go spraypaint your house because it's a harmless symbolic action[/QUOTE] Somebody lives in that monument? Spraypaninting a monument is putting a symbol on a symbol. Spraypainting someone's home is damaging their home.
[QUOTE=Michael haxz;48050275]Instead of settling problems like a decent person, you'd rather people go about it like a bunch of animals. I don't like your ideas, imma go spraypaint your house because it's a harmless symbolic action[/QUOTE] Protesting and destruction of property are a big part of American history. If protest wasn't used to change things, "separate but equal" would still be a part of American law. Hell, American law wouldn't be around in the first place, since the Revolutionary war was essentially one big violent protest against unfair taxation of the colonies. Protesting brings about change. You just don't like this form of protesting because people that you view as "a bunch of animals" are the ones doing it right now.
Im a stupid white cis shitlord who needs to check his privilege [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitposting," - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
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