• Confederate Memorial Vandalized in Charleston
    507 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48049614]No, I am justifying its vandalism. It was a harmless symbolic action resulting in no permanent damage or injuries. The only things threatened were ideals and perceptions. That is protest done right, in my book.[/QUOTE] Considering they spelled "Mater" wrong I'd say the protest was done bad
[QUOTE=EdvardSchnitz;48050324]So you are okay if a white guy spray paints on a martin luther king memorial "GO GET LYNCHED N****" because its a protest against the way society is currently trending to respect civil rights? Didn't think so.[/QUOTE] what?
[QUOTE=EdvardSchnitz;48050324]So you are okay if a white guy spray paints on a martin luther king memorial "GO GET LYNCHED N****" because its a protest against the way society is currently trending to respect civil rights? Didn't think so.[/QUOTE] Well no, because white don't have a long history of being oppressed by blacks, and Martin Luther King isn't a symbol of black violence and oppression. Here in the real world, black folks have a long history of being oppressed by white folks. Matter of fact, it isn't history. It's still happening. The Confederacy is a symbol of white oppression of black people, and a statue honoring the people that fought for the confederacy is a symbol of that oppression as well.
[QUOTE=Michael haxz;48050275]Instead of settling problems like a decent person, you'd rather people go about it like a bunch of animals. I don't like your ideas, imma go spraypaint your house because it's a harmless symbolic action[/QUOTE] Social change doesn't happen magically, or without pissing people off. Gay rights didn't become an accepted social norm overnight while respecting the status quo, the civil rights movement during the MLK era can't attribute it's success to NOT making themselves seen and heard, women didn't gain the right to vote because everybody woke up one morning and said, "I have a wacky idea!" These perceptions were changed over years, decades even, and it took sweat, tears, and blood. The simple and sad truth of the matter is that social unrest implies conflicting idealogies that cannot coexist, such as white supremacy and racial equality, gay rights,and bigotry, misogyny and women's suffrage. Protesting for that change is going to piss off the people who don't want things to change. It also isn't going to happen quickly.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48050355]Well no, because white don't have a long history of being oppressed by blacks, and Martin Luther King isn't a symbol of black violence and oppression...[/QUOTE] The color of a persons skin shouldn't matter. People shouldn't be persecuted by the government for what they say.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48050322]Protesting and destruction of property [U]are a big part of American history[/U]. If protest wasn't used to change things, "separate but equal" would still be a part of American law. Hell, American law wouldn't be around in the first place, since the Revolutionary war was essentially one big violent protest against unfair taxation of the colonies. Protesting brings about change. You just don't like this form of protesting because people that you view as "a bunch of animals" are the ones doing it right now.[/QUOTE] Guess what it's 2015, not the 1700s There are better and more mature ways now to fucking go about that stuff instead of spray painting shit
[QUOTE=EdvardSchnitz;48050324]So you are okay if a white guy spray paints on a martin luther king memorial "GO GET LYNCHED N****" because its a protest against the way society is currently trending to respect civil rights? Didn't think so.[/QUOTE] what huh huh i actually gaped at this post there's a level of stupidity i haven't seen in years
[QUOTE=Michael haxz;48050372]Guess what it's 2015, not the 1700s There are better and more mature ways now to fucking go about that stuff instead of spray painting shit[/QUOTE] deeply internalized racism is still a major problem that just doesn't go away overnight. the fact that we're in the 21st century doesn't change that
[QUOTE=Michael haxz;48050372]Guess what it's 2015, not the 1700s There are better and more mature ways now to fucking go about that stuff instead of spray painting shit[/QUOTE] "Guess what, it's the 1960s, there are better ways of going about getting civil rights than gathering in the streets and causing a ruckus like a bunch of thugs." [QUOTE=Rangergxi;48050371]The color of a persons skin shouldn't matter. People shouldn't be persecuted by the government for what they say.[/QUOTE] You aren't wrong. People shouldn't be persecuted by the government for what color they are or for what they say. But, they are, and they were, and the government persecuted people based on the color of their skin. You can't deny the experiences and history of Black Americans just because the oppression "shouldn't have happened."
[QUOTE=Michael haxz;48050372]Guess what it's 2015, not the 1700s There are better and more mature ways now to fucking go about that stuff instead of spray painting shit[/QUOTE] You don't understand the situation because you are whites, this is why white people shouldn't have a say in this matter because you are all clueless. Right now, some African American is being shot for being african american, and all you can do is defend a racist symbol. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Racism" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=JIDF-Shlomo;48050480]You don't understand the situation because you are whites, this is why white people shouldn't have a say in this matter because you are all clueless.[/QUOTE] You are going to make a point about discrimination, but then discriminate against the opposing opinion because of skin color?
[QUOTE=Michael haxz;48050499]You are going to make a point about discrimination, but then discriminate against the opposing opinion because of skin color?[/QUOTE] Its not discrimination, its fact. Whites do not understand this situation in the slightest. Racism against whites doesn't exist anyways, considering racism is prejudice+power. So don't bring up the racist card when your race is the most racist of all.
[QUOTE=Michael haxz;48050499]You are going to make a point about discrimination, but then discriminate against the opposing opinion because of skin color?[/QUOTE] it can be difficult to comprehend a difficult situation if you've never been part of it. it should be your responsibility to know more about it
[QUOTE=JIDF-Shlomo;48050511]Its not discrimination, its fact. Whites do not understand this situation in the slightest. Racism against whites doesn't exist anyways, considering racism is prejudice+power. So don't bring up the racist card when your race is the most racist of all.[/QUOTE] question: i am white i can also see the reasoning behind the vandalism of the memorial are you saying i do not understand this situation?
Now I'm not an expert on the American civil war at all, but to me the argument that every confederate was a racist sounds exactly like people arguing that every Muslim is a west-hating terrorist. It's ridiculous and seems more like arguing with the heart rather than the mind due to the recent church-shooting tragedy. This whole thing seems like a rather knee-jerk reaction to me.
[QUOTE=LordCrypto;48050566]question: i am white i can also see the reasoning behind the vandalism of the memorial are you saying i do not understand this situation?[/QUOTE] You may have an idea, but as a white, you do not know the struggles of the oppressed, since you are an oppressor.
[QUOTE=JIDF-Shlomo;48050578]You may have an idea, but as a white, you do not know the struggles of the oppressed, since you are an oppressor.[/QUOTE] but all you're doing is perpetuating the idea that every single white person is therefore a terrible oppressor
[QUOTE=Michael haxz;48050499]You are going to make a point about discrimination, but then discriminate against the opposing opinion because of skin color?[/QUOTE] White people don't experience systematic racism on a daily basis, so yes. White people have less say in the experiences of black people. Full disclaimer: I'm white. I acknowledge the fact that I have less say on the matter because of that. I acknowledge that I benefit from a system that favors whites over blacks. That doesn't mean that I have to be entirely unsympathetic to the problems that black people face. I don't have to be a bad person just because my grandfather was a bad person, or because my still-living cousin is a bad person.
which forms a negative feedback loop which just makes the tensions worse and worse
[QUOTE=LordCrypto;48050588]but all you're doing is perpetuating the idea that every single white person is therefore a terrible oppressor[/QUOTE] They are naturally birth, not their fault. They are born into an over privileged social group, and for most of their lives contribute to the racist society that oppresses True Americans (minority groups). It isn't your fault, and I feel sorry, but the entire whites has to face up to their actions
this racial tension needs both sides to work together i get that you suffer from institutionalized racism but calling every single white person by default an oppressor doesn't help smooth racial tension, it just makes it worse
[QUOTE=JIDF-Shlomo;48050578]You may have an idea, but as a white, you do not know the struggles of the oppressed, since you are an oppressor.[/QUOTE] i get the idea (and support) that people who are part of the majority should shut the fuck up and listen, ears open: but it's a bit far fetched to claim that everyone who is part of that majority is a terrible oppressor
yeah see, that's the thing if you call every single part of that majority an oppressor, there are certain people who will go "well they already think we're oppressing them but i'm not doing shit, so why should i even care" [editline]25th June 2015[/editline] but if you instead come from the viewpoint of "yeah institutional racism is a thing, but you specifically are not to blame for it, lets all work on it together" then everyone feels better about helping to change it
[QUOTE=LordCrypto;48050610]this racial tension needs both sides to work together i get that you suffer from institutionalized racism but calling every single white person by default an oppressor doesn't help smooth racial tension, it just makes it worse[/QUOTE] Every single white person benefits from institutionalized racism. All you have to do is acknowledge it, acknowledge that it's bad, and choose to fight against it. If you take offense to the notion that white people benefit from racism and say that it "strains racial tensions," that's on you personally. [QUOTE=LordCrypto;48050633]yeah see, that's the thing if you call every single part of that majority an oppressor, there are certain people who will go "well they already think we're oppressing them but i'm not doing shit, so why should i even care" [editline]25th June 2015[/editline] but if you instead come from the viewpoint of "yeah institutional racism is a thing, but you specifically are not to blame for it, lets all work on it together" then everyone feels better about helping to change it[/QUOTE] You have to learn to understand that when black people say "white people are bad," they're making a blanket generalization that comes from a place of hurt. You are white, but you don't have to include yourself in the blanket generalization. You can listen to the meaning of the words they're saying instead of taking offense to the choice of words. White people are bad, but Steven (who is white) is not a bad person and makes an effort to do good things. You feel me?
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48050652]Every single white person benefits from institutionalized racism. All you have to do is acknowledge it, acknowledge that it's bad, and choose to fight against it. If you take offense to the notion that white people benefit from racism and say that it "strains racial tensions," that's on you personally.[/QUOTE] i'm not taking offense to the notion that white people benefit from racism i'm taking offense to being called an oppressor. there's a semantic difference between benefitting from something, and being an oppressor
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;48050320]Somebody lives in that monument? Spraypaninting a monument is putting a symbol on a symbol. Spraypainting someone's home is damaging their home.[/QUOTE] Spraypainting a monument is damaging the cities property, which the city than has to spend their own money repairing, when they could be spending it on other, more important things. Why not put a sign near the statue saying black lives matter instead of defacing the statue and requiring people to spend money to repair it? There are many other alternative ways that you could protest, without causing damage.
[QUOTE=LordCrypto;48050672]i'm not taking offense to the notion that white people benefit from racism i'm taking offense to being called an oppressor. there's a semantic difference between benefitting from something, and being an oppressor[/QUOTE] White people benefit from racism, racism causes oppression of other races, hence you benefit from oppression. You can choose to sit back and be offended by the idea that you, unintentionally, are contributing to something bad, or you can acknowledge it and choose to separate yourself from it and make an active effort to just not be a bad person. Even if that just means arguing on the internet with a bunch of racists.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48050371]The color of a persons skin shouldn't matter. People shouldn't be persecuted by the government for what they say.[/QUOTE] The difference between that hilariously misguided example and "black lives matter," is that the first is outright hate speech, while the second is a call for equality. It'd only be comparable if the message on the statue had been "kill white people," or something equally toxic.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48050652]Every single white person benefits from institutionalized racism. All you have to do is acknowledge it, acknowledge that it's bad, and choose to fight against it. If you take offense to the notion that white people benefit from racism and say that it "strains racial tensions," that's on you personally. You have to learn to understand that when black people say "white people are bad," they're making a blanket generalization that comes from a place of hurt. You are white, but you don't have to include yourself in the blanket generalization. You can listen to the meaning of the words they're saying instead of taking offense to the choice of words. White people are bad, but Steven (who is white) is not a bad person and makes an effort to do good things. You feel me?[/QUOTE] after your edit, i feel u :)
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48050364]Social change doesn't happen magically, or without pissing people off. Gay rights didn't become an accepted social norm overnight while respecting the status quo, the civil rights movement during the MLK era can't attribute it's success to NOT making themselves seen and heard, women didn't gain the right to vote because everybody woke up one morning and said, "I have a wacky idea!" These perceptions were changed over years, decades even, and it took sweat, tears, and blood. The simple and sad truth of the matter is that social unrest implies conflicting idealogies that cannot coexist, such as white supremacy and racial equality, gay rights,and bigotry, misogyny and women's suffrage. Protesting for that change is going to piss off the people who don't want things to change. It also isn't going to happen quickly.[/QUOTE] This, but I'd also like to keep in mind that MLK especially was not a fan of emotionally charged violence (considering he briefly studied Gandhi and tried to keep true to his own mostly passive convictions). He wouldn't of really found vandalism of anything to be beneficial (unless you can find me an example that I missed). But as sad as it is, conflicting ideologies as Big Dumb American puts it spawns the by-product of social unrest in an environment of emotion. Very difficult to avoid.
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