[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48050725]The difference between that hilariously misguided example and "black lives matter," is that the first is outright hate speech, while the second is a call for equality. It'd only be comparable if the message on the statue had been "kill white people," or something equally toxic.[/QUOTE]
And I think that's really what this thread boils down to. Everyone in this thread that takes offense to the phrase "black lives matter" can't tell the difference between a call for equality and hate speech.
They read "black lives matter" and instead of thinking "yeah, they do, and I can see why people need to point that out," they think "how DARE those uncivilized animals suggest that I don't deserve to live!"
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;48050264]While I don't condone this particular case, we can have history without monuments.
Did you also argue this about Ukraine tearing down the remaining soviet era monuments, recently?[/QUOTE]
I didn't see that recently. But if the time comes where a monument from the past no longer represents how the people feel, it should be placed in a museum rather than defaced or destroyed. Think of all the history of the ancient world that has been lost because conquering nations decided to destroy the monuments and history of the nations they were conquering. All the Egyptian or Greek artifacts that are gone because people down the road decided they were not worth keeping because it didn't reflect them.
Preserving history, to me, is one of the most important responsibilities we have as a civilized people. No matter how dark or violent of a past it represents. Paint can be washed off so from a preservation point of view it's not a big deal. But if someone were to deface a confederate statue because of all this, that would be disgraceful in my opinion.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48050652]
You have to learn to understand that when black people say "white people are bad," they're making a blanket generalization that comes from a place of hurt. You are white, but you don't have to include yourself in the blanket generalization. You can listen to the meaning of the words they're saying instead of taking offense to the choice of words.
White people are bad, but Steven (who is white) is not a bad person and makes an effort to do good things. You feel me?[/QUOTE]
Holy shit. The way you typed out this post makes it seem like you view black people as people devoid of objective thinking and free of standards that the rest of the civilized world follows. Who's the racist again?
[QUOTE=stupid10er;48051193]Holy shit. The way you typed out this post makes it seem like you view black people as people devoid of objective thinking and free of standards that the rest of the civilized world follows. Who's the racist again?[/QUOTE]
please share where you think he suggested this
I can see this kind of back and forth shit coming to a head in a few years.
[QUOTE=TheDestroyerOfall;48044535]Honestly seems more like someone trying to stir shit up rather than an actual protester.[/QUOTE]
This whole story seems like someone is trying to stir up shit
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48048722]No, I'm not. I understand that perfectly well. The issue here is that YOU are failing (willfully or otherwise) to understand the concept of symbolism. No, it's not fair to say "every Confederate soldier was a white supremacist," yet the Confederacy still represents those values as a whole in the popular social narrative, and defacing those monuments is a symbolic attack on those broader values, NOT on the individual soldiers.[/QUOTE]
So you think it's ok to allow an incorrect social narrative to continue, and to allow disrespectful (and illegal) activities based on this incorrect social narrative?
We should be condemning this action and trying to correct this "popular social narrative" instead of allowing it to continue as a source of misinformation.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;48051336]This whole story seems like someone is trying to stir up shit[/QUOTE]
I agree, but you'd be surprised how fucking stupid American activists are. It's quite possible the moron that did this thought he or she would open up a conversation about racism, but instead it'll just lead to people hardening their positions on both sides.
Heard on the radio that a petition is being started to change the Stone Mountain carving and laser show. They already changed the laser show since I was a kid. It no longer ends on Elvis's American Trilogy but the national anthem. Kinda sad, really.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48050815]And I think that's really what this thread boils down to. Everyone in this thread that takes offense to the phrase "black lives matter" can't tell the difference between a call for equality and hate speech.
They read "black lives matter" and instead of thinking "yeah, they do, and I can see why people need to point that out," they think "how DARE those uncivilized animals suggest that I don't deserve to live!"[/QUOTE]
I think the "black lives matter" slogan is totally disingenuous for two reasons:
1) Other than natural causes of death, the biggest risk a black person has of dying is from being murdered by another black person. It's hard for me to take someone yelling "black lives matter" at me seriously, as a white person who's never done anything to hurt a black person, when other black people are causing the death of more black people than every white person combined. (over 90% of black deaths by murder are caused by other black people) ([url]https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls[/url]) In fact, more white people are killed by black people than black people are killed by white people.
Now, let me say this: I would rather we don't focus on race at all when it comes to this sort ot thing because I don't think these statistics have anything to do with people being black or white. I don't think that having a certain skill color makes you more prone to murder. The problem comes when people want to make it about "black lives." If you want to go there and pretend that you're focusing on the importance of black lives, as if they're being ignored, then you need to actually look at what's endagering black lives, and it's not white police officers.
2) The majority of cases that the whole "black lives matter" slogan was based on ended up being trumped up charged that the cop came out vindicated from, yet, people continue to use their names as if they were shot without justification. There's no regard for facts. They're willing to use anything, even if it isn't true, to further their agenda. This makes it very hard to take them seriously.
"Extrajudicial Killings of Black People are Bad" is a bit of a mouthful though.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;48052227]"Extrajudicial Killings of Black People are Bad" is a bit of a mouthful though.[/QUOTE]
How about, "being black isn't a crime!"
I still wouldn't agree with the sentiment, but at least it stands for what they're actually fighting for. The second point would still stand.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48052268]How about, "being black isn't a crime!"
I still wouldn't agree with the sentiment, but at least it stands for what they're actually fighting for. The second point would still stand.[/QUOTE]
How about "Hands up, don't shoot"
[img]http://i.imgur.com/KefIhAp.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Lambeth;48052293]How about "Hands up, don't shoot"[/QUOTE]
That might work... if it wasn't based on a total fabrication.
Okay nobody actually said it I guess it's not valid as a protest slogan.
[editline]25th June 2015[/editline]
If you don't think these killings that have hit the news these past few years aren't unjust I don't know what to tell you.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;48052343]Okay nobody actually said it I guess it's not valid as a protest slogan.
[editline]25th June 2015[/editline]
If you don't think these killings that have hit the news these past few years aren't unjust I don't know what to tell you.[/QUOTE]
I don't know, maybe I'm weird for thinking a protest slogan should represent reality. It seems pretty disengenuous to base your entire protest on a situation that was fabricated from people on your own side. This fits into my second point though, the people who participate in these protests still think that Michael Brown was unjustifiably shot. They don't care what actually happened. It fits into their narrative. So they stick with it even though the facts are against them.
i wish victor white III kicked off the massive protesting, that was such an open and shut case of the police straight up murdering him and yet i have heard barely anything about it since it happened
I may be late on this, but why not re-purpose the monument as a memorial for ALL the soldiers that died in that battle? The way the base is engraved implies a heavy bias towards the Confederate soldiers. The words "Confederate" and "Confederacy" have the connotation of racial oppression behind them, like it or not.
[QUOTE=Al Bundy;48052693]I may be late on this, but why not re-purpose the monument as a memorial for ALL the soldiers that died in that battle? The way the base is engraved implies a heavy bias towards the Confederate soldiers. The words "Confederate" and "Confederacy" have the connotation of racial oppression behind them, like it or not.[/QUOTE]
Cause these were soldiers who fell defending Charleston from the Union, who's intention was to burn the city to the ground like they did with several other Southern cities.
Ah Shit, I didn't mean to rate the OP Funny.
[QUOTE=Breezeep;48052743]Ah Shit, I didn't mean to rate the OP Funny.[/QUOTE]
Refresh the page and you can re-rate.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48052402]I don't know, maybe I'm weird for thinking a protest slogan should represent reality. It seems pretty disengenuous to base your entire protest on a situation that was fabricated from people on your own side. This fits into my second point though, the people who participate in these protests still think that Michael Brown was unjustifiably shot. They don't care what actually happened. It fits into their narrative. So they stick with it even though the facts are against them.[/QUOTE]
Are you always this particular about slogans? I guarantee most people who eat McDonald's are not loving it.
-snip- just kidding
[QUOTE=Lambeth;48052751]Are you always this particular about slogans? I guarantee most people who eat McDonald's are not loving it.[/QUOTE]
I'm just going to assume you're trying to be funny and aren't actually making a real point. If I'm mistaken, please let me know and I'll respond.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48052807]I'm just going to assume you're trying to be funny and aren't actually making a real point. If I'm mistaken, please let me know and I'll respond.[/QUOTE]
My point is that of course they have an agenda, just like McDonalds has an agenda. I don't see how it matters that Michael Brown never said "Hands up, Don't Shoot!".
It's ridiculous that these monuments were ever put up in the first place. Even ignoring slavery, the Confederacy and those that fought for it were traitors.
People that fought to defend it did so with the intention of splinting the Union apart and helped to contribute to one of the worst losses of American lives in history.
There is nothing more anti-American than a confederate memorial/flag. It would be like having a memorial to the Japanese that bombed Pearl Harbor in Hawaii.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;48052847]My point is that of course they have an agenda, just like McDonalds has an agenda. I don't see how it matters that Michael Brown never said "Hands up, Don't Shoot!".[/QUOTE]
How does them having an agenda change anything I've said? If your agenda is more important than the truth, then I'm going to point it out. This goes for any political group.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48052939]How does them having an agenda change anything I've said? If your agenda is more important than the truth, then I'm going to point it out. This goes for any political group.[/QUOTE]
I don't think they've been lying. Though it's hard to pin a blame on a movement when it might just be one person doing wrong.
[QUOTE=Snake7;48052923]It's ridiculous that these monuments were ever put up in the first place. Even ignoring slavery, the Confederacy and those that fought for it were traitors.
People that fought to defend it did so with the intention of splinting the Union apart and helped to contribute to one of the worst losses of American lives in history.
There is nothing more anti-American than a confederate memorial/flag. It would be like having a memorial to the Japanese that bombed Pearl Harbor in Hawaii.[/QUOTE]
Yeah man the South should've sat down and taken it while the Union burnt down their cities and destroyed their livelihoods during the war.
[QUOTE=Moustacheman;48053069]Yeah man the South should've sat down and taken it while the Union burnt down their cities and destroyed their livelihoods during the war.[/QUOTE]
People will overlook the cruelty of the war for the South or say that we deserve it for trying to leave the Union. Who would want or trust a government that would do what they did to people who in there own words were still citizens of the country they were trying to leave? The devastation of the area also hurt the newly free slaves, who resorted to sharecropping since everyone else was starting over from scratch as well.
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