[QUOTE=joshuadim;48044755]Charleston, South Carolina from Union troops.[/QUOTE]
Wars aren't fought over geographical locations. They're fought over ideologies, beliefs, ways of life. The troops defending Fort Sumter from the Union were not just literally defending the fort. They were defending the beliefs of the commanders that put them in the fort.
And hey, guess what? The commanders that put the troops in the fort believed that white people were inherently better than black people, and that white people deserved to own and rule over black people. That's what they were defending.
[QUOTE=EdvardSchnitz;48044815]The gays being persecuted in modern society don't mater because only black lives matter.
Or hispanics
Or any other group persecuted
Nope
Only black lives[/QUOTE]
That memorial and the beliefs it represents don't specifically offend gays or latinos. It specifically represents white supremacists who died protecting their rights to own black people. That statue says "the lives of the people who thought that owning slaves was swell matter more than the slaves themselves." That's why "Black Lives Matter" is the quote of choice here.
[QUOTE=joshuadim;48044820]The issue at hand was more than just slavery. It was also about state's rights. They were angry about the amount of interference the federal government was having in state affairs.[/QUOTE]
yes and no. The federal government wanted to abolish slavery and the seven southern slave states thought that should be a state right because they wanted to keep their slaves. So much so that they were willing to go to war for it.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48044834]Wars aren't fought over geographical locations. They're fought over ideologies, beliefs, ways of life. The troops defending Fort Sumter from the Union were not just literally defending the fort. They were defending the beliefs of the commanders that put them in the fort.
And hey, guess what? The commanders that put the troops in the fort believes that white people were inherently better than black people, and that white people deserved to own and rule over black people. That's what they were defending.[/QUOTE]
Union generals burned surrendered Confederate towns and slaughtered civilians for the shock factor. Sherman bragged about it openly. Is this OK to you? It was 1860, the people living in those towns didn't have the ability to go on Facebook and say hey wait guys I'm not OK with this slavery thing. They fought or they burned.
[QUOTE=Starlight 456;48044828]Because states rights means that they could keep holding slaves.[/QUOTE]
Again, it wasn't just about slaves though, although it was one big factor. It was about government interference in states matters all around.
As somebody not in the US, looking into this, it looks like everything is being totally blown out of proportion, I know black friends who don't give a fuck about the Confederate. Why is this such a thing?
[QUOTE=aydin690;48044807]And why did they want to secede from the union? Because they wanted to keep their slaves.[/QUOTE]
Okay, that's clear as day. South Carolina seceded along with other southern states so they could keep slavery, which as bad as it is(and trust me I'm against slavery), it was an economical driving factor in the south.
Now, how does this correlate to the memorial? The memorial was built because it's honoring the lives who defended Ft. Sumter, and Charleston's residents, from the Union attacking.
[QUOTE=EdvardSchnitz;48044815]The gays being persecuted in modern society don't mater because only black lives matter.
Or hispanics
Or any other group persecuted
Nope
Only black lives[/QUOTE]
Hey I don't know if you can read but it says "Black lives matter" not "ONLY black lives matter".
[QUOTE=joshuadim;48044820]The issue at hand was more than just slavery. It was also about state's rights. They were angry about the amount of interference the federal government was having in state affairs.[/QUOTE]
haha
haahaha
"The prohibition of slavery in the Territories is the cardinal principle of this organization." -- Georgia's declaration of secession
"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world." -- Mississippi
[editline]24th June 2015[/editline]
[url]http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html[/url]
go read these and tell me it was "more than just slavery"
[QUOTE=aydin690;48044839]yes and no. The federal government wanted to abolish slavery and the seven southern slave states thought that should be a state right because they wanted to keep their slaves. So much so that they were willing to go to war for it.[/QUOTE]
Lincoln at first, at the beginning of the war, did not want to abolish slavery, but the southern states believed he wanted to, hence why they seceded in the first place. It was only until after Gettysburg and the Emancipation Proclamation did abolishment become a driving force for the Union.
[QUOTE=joshuadim;48044831]So what's wrong with a solemn memorial to be dedicated to the people who died there in large numbers?[/QUOTE]
Let's build a memorial to the nazi conscripts that were assigned to the concentration camps.
Now regarding the memorial, I seriously don't understand in what way it is racist or promoting racism when it's dedicated to the lives lost there?
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48044840]Union generals burned surrendered Confederate towns and slaughtered civilians for the shock factor. Sherman bragged about it openly. Is this OK to you? It was 1860, the people living in those towns didn't have the ability to go on Facebook and say hey wait guys I'm not OK with this slavery thing. They fought or they burned.[/QUOTE]
Sherman was an asshole, but that doesn't change the fact that not all Confederate soldiers were defending towns because they were afraid that they would be burned down.
[QUOTE=aydin690;48044863]Let's build a memorial to the nazi conscripts that were assigned to the concentration camps.[/QUOTE]
Because Nazi's are comparable to Confederacy troops ok
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48044866]Sherman was an asshole, but that doesn't change the fact that not all Confederate soldiers were defending towns because they were afraid that they would be burned down.[/QUOTE]
Nor does it validate your assertion that all Confederate soldiers were defending towns because they wanted people they didn't care about to be able to keep owning people they didn't care about.
[QUOTE=LoganIsAwesome;48044512]The US is becoming like Germany after this. So many people are trying to remove reminders of our past. While I don't condone this, I am not gonna cry about it.[/QUOTE]
Except that Germany has reminders of the past [I]everywhere[/I].
The mentality here is very much a "must not forget" regarding anything WWII, so there's an incredible amount of memorials.
Not really to the Nazis directly though, but those to the soldiers from both wars are really fine to have here, even if there's (some) Nazi imagery.
There are [B]far[/B] more memorials to the regime victims though, at least in the areas I've been to so far.
What [I]was[/I] removed are Nazi insignia and any propaganda, so if there was any public art explicitly in favour of them it's long gone now (and probably disappeared very quickly after the war).
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48044825]Do you know what happened to surrendered troops? To surrendered towns?[/QUOTE]
Apparently Quantrill's raiders never killed innocents, and 28% of union prisoners at Andersonville didnt die of exposure or malnutrition. Stop pretending the confederates didn't pull shit of their own, just accept that your great grandpappy was on the losing side
I'd also like to note to everyone that the Confederacy was also burning towns and executing civilians early into the war, but then they started loosing...
[QUOTE=ColdAsRice;48044883]Apparently Quantrill's raiders never killed innocents, and 28% of union prisoners at Andersonville didnt die of exposure or malnutrition. Stop pretending the confederates didn't pull shit of their own, just accept that your great grandpappy was on the losing side[/QUOTE]
What the fuck lol where did I suggest the Confederates didn't commit war crimes of their own? Stop putting words in my mouth. A war memorial to those who died defending Charleston/Fort Sumter has nothing to do with Quantrill's raiders.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48044886]I'd also like to note to everyone that the Confederacy was also burning towns and executing civilians early into the war, but then they started loosing...[/QUOTE]
Yes, nowhere did I deny that. It's not relevant to this discussion which is about defenders at Charleston being disrespected and demonized.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48044886]I'd also like to note to everyone that the Confederacy was also burning towns and executing civilians early into the war, but then they started loosing...[/QUOTE]
This is very true. Both sides were shitheads to civilians. What's most remembered though is the Union being shitheads (i.e. Sherman's march to the sea)
[QUOTE=Tamschi;48044880]Except that Germany has reminders of the past [I]everywhere[/I].
The mentality here is very much a "must not forget" regarding anything WWII, so there's an incredible amount of memorials.
Not really to the Nazis directly though, but those to the soldiers from both wars are really fine to have here, even if there's (some) Nazi imagery.
There are [B]far[/B] more memorials to the regime victims though, at least in the areas I've been to so far.
What [I]was[/I] removed are Nazi insignia and any propaganda, so if there was any public art explicitly in favour of them it's long gone now (and probably disappeared very quickly after the war).[/QUOTE]
That's a little bit more valid because even if the German people didn't believe in the Nazi's ideology they were drafted into the army. That wasn't really the same with the Confederacy, mostly because the majority of people in the Confederacy actually believed in it's ideals.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48044895]That's a little bit more valid because even if the German people didn't believe in the Nazi's ideology they were drafted into the army. That wasn't really the same with the Confederacy, mostly because the majority of people in the Confederacy actually believed in it's ideals.[/QUOTE]
No they fucking didn't lol. I'm done with this topic.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48044902]No they fucking didn't lol. I'm done with this topic.[/QUOTE]
Proof? Honestly if they didn't then why did they fucking secede from the Union?
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48044904]Proof?[/QUOTE]
You want proof that 9 million people [B]didn't[/B] support every political notion of a nation that formed around where they had rooted their lives? The burden of proof is on the accuser, I expect citations for each citizen.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48044909]You want proof that 9 million people [B]didn't[/B] support every political notion of a nation that formed around where they had rooted their lives? The burden of proof is on the accuser, I expect citations for each citizen.[/QUOTE]
Bullshit. I never asked for each single citizen. Just show me a good amount of evidence an I'll believe you but I don't. And if they didn't believe in the Confederacy ideals, then why the fuck would they secede? There'd be no reason.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48044902]No they fucking didn't lol. I'm done with this topic.[/QUOTE]
I have to disagree with you there. A majority of Confederacy troops were volunteers from all around the South. Confederacy troops volunteered to be in the army because they believed in defending their rights and their property.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48044909]You want proof that 9 million people [B]didn't[/B] support every political notion of a nation that formed around where they had rooted their lives? The burden of proof is on the accuser, I expect citations for each citizen.[/QUOTE]
Maybe it isn't 100% solid proof, but the fact that it was the 1860's (A notoriously racist era) in the south (a notoriously racist region) is enough to say that it's likely the majority of confederate soldiers were racist.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48044917]Bullshit. If they didn't believe in the Confederacy ideals, then why the fuck would they secede? There'd be no reason.[/QUOTE]
[B]THEY[/B] didn't secede, the politicians running the country seceded. The country seceded around them. They didn't get a say in it.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48044922][B]THEY[/B] didn't secede, the politicians running the country seceded. The country seceded around them. They didn't get a say in it.[/QUOTE]
Guess who fucking elected those politicians?
[editline]24th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=joshuadim;48044918]I have to disagree with you there. A majority of Confederacy troops were volunteers from all around the South. Confederacy troops volunteered to be in the army because they believed in defending their rights and their property.[/QUOTE]
Their property being humans as well...
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48044927]Guess who fucking elected those politicians?[/QUOTE]
The few people whose votes counted in America's fucked up ass political system in the 1800s?
[QUOTE=joshuadim;48044868]Because Nazi's are comparable to Confederacy troops ok[/QUOTE]
Both the Nazis and the Confederacy fought for the systematic oppression of an "inferior race" because they believed that their race was superior and thus had the inherent right to oppress lesser races. The Nazis believed that their inferior race should be wiped from existence, the Confederacy believed that they should rule the inferior race and force them to work for them until they died.
Not that different, dude.
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