• Confederate Memorial Vandalized in Charleston
    507 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48044938]The few people whose votes counted in America's fucked up ass political system in the 1800s?[/QUOTE] What do you mean by fucked up political system?
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48044834]Wars aren't fought over geographical locations. They're fought over ideologies, beliefs, ways of life. The troops defending Fort Sumter from the Union were not just literally defending the fort. They were defending the beliefs of the commanders that put them in the fort. And hey, guess what? The commanders that put the troops in the fort believed that white people were inherently better than black people, and that white people deserved to own and rule over black people. That's what they were defending. [/QUOTE] What you said here is such a gross oversimplification to war in general. "Condefederate soldier =/= Automatic racist". The majority of southerners at this time were mostly poor, and even more didn't even own slaves. Yes, I'm sure quite a bit were racist and supporters of the confederate government, but to say that vandalizing a monument to dead soldiers is a good thing is just sad. Is it hard to believe that some soldiers were fighting for their homes? This entire situation is getting so blow out of proportion, though. People are hardly able to stick to sensible attitudes. You're either a Confederate apologist, or you think certain parts of a rough past should be erased. The shooting was a terrible thing and I'm not trying to justify the Confederacy, but when people loose site of common sense, things get worse.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48044922][B]THEY[/B] didn't secede, the politicians running the country seceded. The country seceded around them. They didn't get a say in it.[/QUOTE] Then what's with the cheering people and bells tolling when the states announced their succession from the Union?
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48044938]The few people whose votes counted in America's fucked up ass political system in the 1800s?[/QUOTE] A good way to support your argument would be to describe how the political system was fucked up.
Now my cousin, who is a police officer is reporting that the Zebulon Braid Vance memorial (IE his birthplace) in Weaverville, NC is targeted for vandalizing, and will probably have to watch is round the clock for a couple days. It's old wooden houses. Problem could be burned down quite easily. [IMG]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/25/cb/0f/25cb0ff6349ec711b056d6a4037327bb.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48044938]The few people whose votes counted in America's fucked up ass political system in the 1800s?[/QUOTE] I wouldn't say the political system was fucked up, more or less the voting system. As African-Americans could NOT vote at all for politicians in the south, and those that were against slavery were a huge minority in the voting factor.
hehe YEAAHHHHH BLACK LIVES MATTER LETS DEFACE A MEMORIAL FOR FALLEN SOLDIERS THAT WILL SHOW THEM AND GET PEOPLE ON OUR SIDE
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48044941]Both the Nazis and the Confederacy fought for the systematic oppression of an "inferior race" because they believed that their race was superior and thus had the inherent right to oppress lesser races. The Nazis believed that their inferior race should be wiped from existence, the Confederacy believed that they should rule the inferior race and force them to work for them until they died. Not that different, dude.[/QUOTE] Yes compare your countrymen of the past to the nazis, what a great comparison! The Confederacy didn't set up death camps to exterminate people on an industrial scale nor did they kill people/wage war because they were "ubermensc".
[QUOTE=Doctor Death921;48044943]What you said here is such a gross oversimplification to war in general. "Condefederate soldier =/= Automatic racist". The majority of southerners at this time were mostly poor, and even more didn't even own slaves. Yes, I'm sure quite a bit were racist and supporters of the confederate government, but to say that vandalizing a monument to dead soldiers is a good thing is just sad. Is it hard to believe that some soldiers were fighting for their homes? This entire situation is getting so blow out of proportion, though. People are hardly able to stick to sensible attitudes. You're either a Confederate apologist, or you think certain parts of a rough past should be erased. The shooting was a terrible thing and I'm not trying to justify the Confederacy, but when people loose site of common sense, things get worse.[/QUOTE] That's why I'm in the attitude of not glorifing the defenders of the Confederacy and it's Values but of the people who found a way to make the downfall of it. People like Harriet Tubman and the Union Soldiers who fought to free the slaves.
Jefferson Davis was elected by a unanimous electoral college vote. Before that I'm pretty sure the government of the south was basically in the hands of the wealthy plantation owners. I doubt the poor underclass really had a voice.
-gonna retract this, it's a poor argument upon reflection.-
[QUOTE=OvB;48044972]Jefferson Davis was elected by a unanimous electoral college vote. Before that I'm pretty sure the government of the south was basically in the hands of the wealthy plantation owners. I doubt the poor underclass really had a voice.[/QUOTE] This, this is what I'm saying. America was run by the rich and influential then even more than it is now. The average Southerner did not have a say in anything that went on around them, and all they could do when the Union came to steamroll them was stand and fight or roll over and die. The North had this same problem. The only difference is there they liked to use smoke and mirrors to pretend they weren't enslaving people, but it was functionally the same, just in a factory environment for the most part. Everybody of note was an asshole in the Civil War, that doesn't mean you have any reason to disrespect monuments to defenders.
[QUOTE=Rocko's;48044975]There is no way you can compare the Nazi's to Confederate Southerners. The south didn't build any fucking death camps and left slaves to starve for days and days, branding them as numbers. Believe or not some slave holders actually treated slaves with respect, giving them nice clothing and good food. They weren't as evil, or even comparable, to what the Nazi's did in Germany and I laugh when the South during the Civil War is compared to Nazi, Germany.[/QUOTE] Just because the occasional slave owner treated them less poorly (Owning a human is by default horrible and disrespectful, so calling it "with respect" is wrong) doesn't mean all of them did and it was by far the majority that brutalized them.
It's kind of a shitty monument. Sure people lost their lives but it was for all the wrong reasons. Nothing to be proud about unless you're a racist hick.
[QUOTE=aydin690;48044863]Let's build a memorial to the nazi conscripts that were assigned to the concentration camps.[/QUOTE] i like how you compare people who willingly did genocide, to farmers and average people who were defending their state. might as well call the fucking Russian country men and women nazis too for trying to stop Germany's invasion.
[QUOTE=Rocko's;48044975]Believe or not some slave holders actually treated slaves with respect, giving them nice clothing and good food.[/QUOTE] ergh. i agree with what you're saying but this is always a bad arguement
Mindlessly defacing anything Confederacy-related to protest racism is stupid.
[QUOTE=Doctor Death921;48044943]What you said here is such a gross oversimplification to war in general. "Condefederate soldier =/= Automatic racist". The majority of southerners at this time were mostly poor, and even more didn't even own slaves. Yes, I'm sure quite a bit were racist and supporters of the confederate government, but to say that vandalizing a monument to dead soldiers is a good thing is just sad. Is it hard to believe that some soldiers were fighting for their homes? This entire situation is getting so blow out of proportion, though. People are hardly able to stick to sensible attitudes. You're either a Confederate apologist, or you think certain parts of a rough past should be erased. The shooting was a terrible thing and I'm not trying to justify the Confederacy, but when people loose site of common sense, things get worse.[/QUOTE] I'm saying that the memorial shouldn't be there in the first place because of what it symbolizes, and as I said before, American history is FULL of people tearing down symbols of their oppression. One of the most famous moments in American history, the Boston Tea Party, is exactly that. The colonists viewed the taxes that England imposed on the colonies were oppressing them, so they destroyed a load of tea, which at the time was worth its weight in gold. The tea was symbolic of their oppression, so they destroyed it. Confederate soldiers fought for racist beliefs. The memorial honors the soldiers and by extension what the soldiers fought for. The memorial is symbolic of racism. The memorial got vandalized (with washable spray paint) by people that believe that racism is bad. People online get offended because they disagree with the motives of the vandals.
[QUOTE=Starlight 456;48044983]Just because the occasional slave owner treated them less poorly (Owning a human is by default horrible and disrespectful, so calling it "with respect" is wrong) doesn't mean all of them did and it was by far the majority that brutalized them.[/QUOTE] Some areas of the south were more brutal than others to slaves. For example, the deep south such as Mississippi has been notorious for racism for hundreds of years and when slavery still existed, was notorious amongst the slave population. If you were a slave, you did everything you could to not be sent to Mississippi. [editline]24th June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=The Calzone;48044992]I'm saying that the memorial shouldn't be there in the first place because of what it symbolizes, and as I said before, American history is FULL of people tearing down symbols of their oppression. One of the most famous moments in American history, the Boston Tea Party, is exactly that. The colonists viewed the taxes that England imposed on the colonies were oppressing them, so they destroyed a load of tea, which at the time was worth its weight in gold. The tea was symbolic of their oppression, so they destroyed it. Confederate soldiers fought for racist beliefs. The memorial honors the soldiers and by extension what the soldiers fought for. The memorial is symbolic of racism. The memorial got vandalized (with washable spray paint) by people that believe that racism is bad. People online get offended because they disagree with the motives of the vandals.[/QUOTE] Where does it say on the memorial it honors the beliefs they fought for? You still have yet to answer my question.
[QUOTE=Rofl_copter;48044988]ergh. i agree with what you're saying but this is always a bad arguement[/QUOTE] Yeah, I understand that. And yeah, I believe no matter what owning another human is wrong. But the point I was trying to more or less bring up is that you really cannot compare the South in the 1800's to Nazi, Germany. And the only good part that I saw in the whole slave bullshit, was that there were the fair share of slaves that were treated more or less like they were apart of the slave holders family, rather than lesser men due to their skin colour.
[QUOTE=joshuadim;48044993]Some areas of the south were more brutal than others to slaves. For example, the deep south such as Mississippi has been notorious for racism for hundreds of years and when slavery still existed, was notorious amongst the slave population. If you were a slave, you did everything you could to not be sent to Mississippi.[/QUOTE] That doesn't make the fact that they [I]literally owned living human beings[/I] any better just because some "weren't as bad". It just means they didn't beat them and rape them (commonly).
[QUOTE=Starlight 456;48045002]That doesn't make the fact that they [I]literally owned living human beings[/I] any better just because some "weren't as bad". It just means they didn't beat them and rape them (commonly).[/QUOTE] You still are structuring your argument like this applies to every white person south of the Mason Dixon line. You keep dodging people telling you that many (most) whites worked in conditions comparable to slavery, the only real difference being that technically the whites could walk away if they wanted to.
[QUOTE=joshuadim;48044960]Yes compare your countrymen of the past to the nazis, what a great comparison! The Confederacy didn't set up death camps to exterminate people on an industrial scale nor did they kill people/wage war because they were "ubermensc".[/QUOTE] "nor did they kill people/wage war because they were 'ubermensc'" Uh, yes they did? The war was fought because the white people of the south believed that white people were superior to black people and thus had the right to own black people and do with them what they saw fit. Both the Nazis and the Confederate South were motivated by racial superiority. One wanted to destroy, the other wanted to rule, but their motives were the same. [QUOTE=joshuadim;48044993]Where does it say on the memorial it honors the beliefs they fought for? You still have yet to answer my question.[/QUOTE] Do I really have to quote what the memorial says again? It's dedicated to the soldiers that died. The soldiers died for a reason. Therefore the memorial is dedicated to what the soldiers were fighting for. I'll bring up the Nazis again because I'm feeling cliche. Let's say you had a memorial to Adolf Hitler, and the plaque said "To Adolf Hitler, He was a really good painter." Would this memorial be in bad taste? Adolf Hitler WAS an avid painter, after all. He was a decent artist. Let's say that the local group of jewish people take offense to this giant solid gold statue of Hitler and want it taken down. "But," you say, "It's not dedicated to the atrocities he committed during WWII! Nobody's denying that those were bad! It's dedicated to his artwork!" Does this make sense? No, it really doesn't. The Confederate soldiers fought for white supremacy. The statue is in their honor. The statue honors what they fought for. It's really simple, dude.
[QUOTE=Starlight 456;48045002]That doesn't make the fact that they [I]literally owned living human beings[/I] any better just because some "weren't as bad". It just means they didn't beat them and rape them (commonly).[/QUOTE] I never said it wasn't terrible overall? Slavery is a horrible system of oppression and I'm glad it's gone for good.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48044978] The North had this same problem. The only difference is there they liked to use smoke and mirrors to pretend they weren't enslaving people, but it was functionally the same, just in a factory environment for the most part. Everybody of note was an asshole in the Civil War, that doesn't mean you have any reason to disrespect monuments to defenders.[/QUOTE] This pretty much means we're still enslaved? And to be honest, this argument is stupid. The idea of freedom is the ability of choice, whether or not that choice ends up hurting you is your fault, because you chose that. Slaves don't have that choice. They are forced to do one option, and if they try to rebel against that they are forced back to that one option.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045008]"nor did they kill people/wage war because they were 'ubermensc'" Uh, yes they did? The war was fought because the white people of the south believed that white people were superior to black people and thus had the right to own black people and do with them what they saw fit. Both the Nazis and the Confederate South were motivated by racial superiority. One wanted to destroy, the other wanted to rule, but their motives were the same.[/QUOTE] The Nazi's motives was the exterminate Jews and "inferior races" from the face of the Earth. The Confederacy's motives was to protect the system of slavery because of the South's dependence on it for its economy. There really is no similarity there.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48045017]This pretty much means we're still enslaved?[/QUOTE] No? [QUOTE=joshuadim;48045019]The Nazi's motives was the exterminate Jews and "inferior races" from the face of the Earth. The Confederacy's motives was to protect the system of slavery because of the South's dependence on it for its economy. There really is no similarity there.[/QUOTE] And the opening of the Confederate constitution set the stage to wind down slavery - at a pace that wouldn't wreck the economy.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48045007]You still are structuring your argument like this applies to every white person south of the Mason Dixon line. You keep dodging people telling you that many (most) whites worked in conditions comparable to slavery, the only real difference being that technically the whites could walk away if they wanted to.[/QUOTE] White men in the south in the mid to late 1800's were so predominantly racist there were probably less black people then anti-slavery people. It's also irrelevant that whites were held in those conditions, they weren't literally bought, owned, beaten, and sold like livestock.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045008] Uh, yes they did? The war was fought because the white people of the south believed that white people were superior to black people and thus had the right to own black people and do with them what they saw fit. [/QUOTE] The war was fought because the North was not having the southern states seceding, and what started the war is what the memorial that was defaced is based on, the defense of Ft. Sumter. Once that base was attacked, the Confederate States weren't having it and started to fight back against the North. The South wanted to peacefully secede.
[QUOTE=Starlight 456;48045022]White men in the south in the mid to late 1800's were so predominantly racist there were probably less black people then anti-slavery people. It's also irrelevant that whites were held in those conditions, they weren't literally bought, owned, beaten, and sold like livestock.[/QUOTE] It's entirely relevant because you are building arguments as if the people working in those conditions were somehow responsible for the system they were suffering under just because their skin was white.
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