• Confederate Memorial Vandalized in Charleston
    507 replies, posted
[QUOTE=joshuadim;48045109]I know both had terrible beliefs, but that's history for you. Also I'm not making it justifiable to fight for it, I'm just saying Confederate soldiers aren't nowhere near close to being as insane or brutal as Nazi's are, which is the comparison you're trying to make.[/QUOTE] So you agree that the beliefs they were fighting for were evil... but you believe that their beliefs deserve to be immortalized in a memorial dedicated to the people that fought for them? I don't know if you know this, but when you dedicate a memorial to something, you're honoring the thing in question. When you dedicate a memorial to soldiers, you dedicate it to what those soldiers died for. The Confederate army was largely volunteers and the war's motivation was the right to own slaves. The memorial is dedicated to soldiers that voluntarily gave their lives defending the right for the white man to own the black man.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48045149]There [I]were[/I] black slave owners and there [I]were[/I] white slaves. Claiming otherwise is revisionism and trying to change the definition of slavery where whites are bound to it is fucking stupid.[/QUOTE] Proof? And Indentured Servants are not Slaves. Indentured Servitude came as a result of people's actions, not because they weren't able to choose for themselves something better.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045155]So you agree that the beliefs they were fighting for were evil... but you believe that their beliefs deserve to be immortalized in a memorial dedicated to the people that fought for them? I don't know if you know this, but when you dedicate a memorial to something, you're honoring the thing in question. When you dedicate a memorial to soldiers, you dedicate it to what those soldiers died for. The Confederate army was largely volunteers and the war's motivation was the right to own slaves. The memorial is dedicated to soldiers that voluntarily gave their lives defending the right for the white man to own the black man.[/QUOTE] Who said their beliefs are being immortalized? The memorial is in remembrance of the massive amount of lives lost. It's dedicated purely to the ancestors of the people living there. I don't understand why you don't get that.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48045134]They were being paid for their work, then charged for an amount equal to that pay in order to live on the land they were working, and not allowed to work if they didn't live there. That's uh, that's slavery. Actually the only real difference is that they didn't have to buy the whites, they came to them.[/QUOTE] Yes, but in the case of indentured servants, they got themselves in to the situation through their own actions. Indentured servants agreed to be indentured servants. Black slaves born in to slavery did not agree to their conditions. They were bred in to it. There's your difference.
[QUOTE=No_Excuses;48045153]The number of deaths is completely irrelevant to whether it warrants a memorial or not.[/QUOTE] A+ post i'd say when the number of those killed in a particular event crosses into the hundreds of thousands mark it might warrant some remembrance of sorts
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48045158]Proof? And Indentured Servants are not Slaves. Indentured Servitude came as a result of people's actions, not because they weren't able to choose for themselves something better.[/QUOTE] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ellison[/url] Citations in the article Indentured servitude is slavery when you can't get out of it.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48045150]Honoring the soldiers does not mean honoring the oppressive government they fought for.[/QUOTE] It's not at all honoring the government. It's honoring the lives lost. There are ancestral families in Charleston who have had family members fight for the city. And at the time, they were fighting to defend it. It's simply a memorial to remember the mass amount of lives lost, it doesn't specifically state it's opinion on the matter of whether or not the Confederate State's were right.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045127]1) What you're talking about weren't slaves, they were indentured servants. Indentured servants were working to pay off a debt. Technically they weren't slaves because they were being paid for their work.[/QUOTE] Those "indentured servants" were seen as the property of those they owed a debt to. The only reason they had a debt in the first place was because their economic status was taken advantage of to ensure that they would end up in indentured servitude. [QUOTE=TornadoAP;48045143]1) That's not slavery for the poor white people. Like I've said before, freedom is the ability to choose. Slaves don't have a choice, and those poor white people in the 1800s could have easily walked away from that labour and done something else. The Black Slaves during that period didn't have that choice. As a result, there weren't any Black Slave Owners, and there weren't any White Slaves.[/QUOTE] There were black slave owners, and as explained above, they didn't really have a choice. Parents would go "in debt" to someone, then have their kids "repay the debt", which means their kids became the property of the debtor until the debt was paid off.
[QUOTE=joshuadim;48045160]Who said their beliefs are being immortalized? The memorial is in remembrance of the massive amount of lives lost. It's dedicated purely to the ancestors of the people living there. I don't understand why you don't get that.[/QUOTE] Honoring someone's death and honoring the reason they died are inherently linked. You can't do one without doing the other. I don't understand why you don't get that.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045155]The Confederate army was largely volunteers and the war's motivation was the right to own slaves.[/QUOTE] The Confederacy's succession was motivated by the institution of slavery being threatened. The war was fought because the Union tried to force them back in. Why do you think southerners who celebrate their history call themselves "rebels"? I can't tell you if they had the legal right to do so, but I can speculate this played a big factor many Southerners choosing to fight.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48044754] As for you saying you're from Florida and you haven't seen any sort of celebration of the confederacy, I honestly have no explanation. [/QUOTE] Florida was only tangentially related to the civil war; when it sided with the confederacy, it had less than a quarter million people and its largest contribution to the war was providing food. There were few battles due to its distance from the front line, and those that did occur rarely had more than a thousand combatants. The Floridians one sees today in Florida rarely have more than a few generations in the state, as population remained pitiful until the mass production of air conditioning and the Interstate system which cued mass migration from northern states. Confederacy nostalgia is rare outside of the northernmost parts that border the Deep South.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045174]Honoring someone's death and honoring the reason they died are inherently linked. You can't do one without doing the other. I don't understand why you don't get that.[/QUOTE] They died to defend their city. This memorial is placed in the city they died in to defend. It doesn't matter what they fought for at this point when it clearly states on the memorial they died to defend their city. These people had family members and loved ones that lived in Charleston and they defended it to keep them alive.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045155] The Confederate army was largely volunteers and the war's motivation was the right to own slaves. The memorial is dedicated to soldiers that voluntarily gave their lives defending the right for the white man to own the black man.[/QUOTE] If I lived in the south as a middle-class guy I'd probably volunteer as well. The Union was raping the land and people. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman's_March_to_the_Sea[/url]
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045174]Honoring someone's death and honoring the reason they died are inherently linked. You can't do one without doing the other. I don't understand why you don't get that.[/QUOTE] Actually you can. Take for example the Washington Monument in DC. It's in remembrance of George Washington, the first president of the US. Is there any showing on it that it honors what he believed in/what he died for?
Yeah Starlight the March to the Sea was hilarious thanks for your input.
i'm inclined to believe that he finds the fact that he would volunteer funny or something but knowing his post/rating history you never know
[QUOTE=joshuadim;48045195]Actually you can. Take for example the Washington Monument in DC. It's in remembrance of George Washington, the first president of the US. Is there any showing on it that it honors what he believed in/what he died for?[/QUOTE] The two memorials aren't even remotely comparable. The statue of George Washington represents everything he did in life to help America come to exist. The confederate memorial is specifically dedicated to the actions carried out by "the soldiers" who died defending Fort Sumter during the Civil War. It gives a reason, a location, and a time frame. You're not even trying to present counterpoints anymore.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045227]The confederate memorial is specifically dedicated to the actions carried out by "the soldiers" who died defending Fort Sumter during the Civil War. It gives a reason, a location, and a time frame.[/QUOTE] Good, I'm glad we finally got you to admit this. Now can you explain why it's acceptable to vandalize it?
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045227]The two memorials aren't even remotely comparable. The statue of George Washington represents everything he did in life to help America come to exist. The confederate memorial is specifically dedicated to the actions carried out by "the soldiers" who died defending Fort Sumter during the Civil War. It gives a reason, a location, and a time frame. You're not even trying to present counterpoints anymore.[/QUOTE] The Confederate Memorial is dedicated to those who died. It has NOTHING to do with beliefs on anything. If anything, you're the one who isn't providing enough evidence to justify the claim that the memorial is dedicated to racism and superiority beliefs.
[QUOTE=joshuadim;48044960]Yes compare your countrymen of the past to the nazis, what a great comparison! The Confederacy didn't set up death camps to exterminate people on an industrial scale nor did they kill people/wage war because they were "ubermensc".[/QUOTE] do you think all german soldiers were nazis
[QUOTE=Rofl_copter;48045217]i'm inclined to believe that he finds the fact that he would volunteer funny or something but knowing his post/rating history you never know[/QUOTE] I don't want anyone to think I actually find that funny. I was just laughing about how he straight up said he'd volunteer.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;48045245]do you think all german soldiers were nazis[/QUOTE] How can you even consider making this argument while simultaneously asserting that all Confederate soldiers were pro-slavery?
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;48045245]do you think all german soldiers were nazis[/QUOTE] Well they WERE part of the Nazi army and of the Nazi party so... yes. Some were more fanatical in the Nazi beliefs than others.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48045236]Good, I'm glad we finally got you to admit this. Now can you explain why it's acceptable to vandalize it?[/QUOTE] Because, as I said before, honoring soldiers dying and the cause the soldiers were fighting for are inherently linked. The memorial symbolizes the values that the Confederacy stood for. The Confederacy stood for white supremacy. A statue honoring white supremacy has no place in "the land of the free."
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045258]Because, as I said before, honoring soldiers dying and the cause the soldiers were fighting for are inherently linked. The memorial symbolizes the values that the Confederacy stood for. The Confederacy stood for white supremacy. A statue honoring white supremacy has no place in "the land of the free."[/QUOTE] Again, where on the statue does it show/say it symbolizes white supremacy?
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045258]Because, as I said before, honoring soldiers dying and the cause the soldiers were fighting for are inherently linked. The memorial symbolizes the values that the Confederacy stood for. The Confederacy stood for white supremacy. A statue honoring white supremacy has no place in "the land of the free."[/QUOTE] But you're wrong. You fundamentally fail to understand the mindset of the Confederate soldier.
[QUOTE=joshuadim;48045260]Again, where on the statue does it show/say it symbolizes white supremacy?[/QUOTE] It does so by existing as a memorial for the confederacy.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48045250]How can you even consider making this argument while simultaneously asserting that all Confederate soldiers were pro-slavery?[/QUOTE] when did i do that, i wonder
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045258]Because, as I said before, honoring soldiers dying and the cause the soldiers were fighting for are inherently linked. The memorial symbolizes the values that the Confederacy stood for. The Confederacy stood for white supremacy. A statue honoring white supremacy has no place in "the land of the free."[/QUOTE] No where, NO WHERE does it state on that memorial that it supports the soldiers because they upheld "white supremacy". It is literally there to honor the lives of people who passed away to defend their city, for whatever reason they wished to defend it. Because Charleston wasn't this random forest, it was an actual city with actual living people in it. And these people did not want to let it fall, because who knows what would've happen to Charleston. The memorial is simply there to say "Hey, these people died to defend this city, it's just here as a piece of history or a memorial if you have ancestors that fought to defend this city. But once again, it's a piece of history in our city that this battle was fought in"
[QUOTE=Starlight 456;48045276]It does so by existing as a memorial for the confederacy.[/QUOTE] It's not a memorial for the Confederacy. It's a memorial for the lives lost there.
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