• Confederate Memorial Vandalized in Charleston
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[QUOTE=Starlight 456;48045276]It does so by existing as a memorial for the confederacy.[/QUOTE] ... for the Confederate soldier, not the Confederacy. You are approaching the Confederacy as an entity whose population holds a homogenous set of ideals and that has been demonstrated to be, well, not the case.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48044895]That's a little bit more valid because even if the German people didn't believe in the Nazi's ideology they were drafted into the army. That wasn't really the same with the Confederacy, mostly because the majority of people in the Confederacy actually believed in it's ideals.[/QUOTE] Not actually. It was fairly unpopular with the common man and there was much unrest outside the planter classes, amid the starved and conscripted. Those folks would tar and feather their descendants who would idolize that flag.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48045193]If I lived in the south as a middle-class guy I'd probably volunteer as well. The Union was raping the land and people. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman's_March_to_the_Sea[/url][/QUOTE] My great x3 grandfather wasn't middle class, but poor, and he volunteered in 1862 to fight. He enlisted in the neighboring county and was put in the 32nd GA Infantry battalion ,and according to his obituary he saw combat in Charleston. His, and my, hometown was demolished in 1864 shortly after Atlanta fell. He survived the war and went back home to carry on until his death in 1912 or 13, can't remember right now. I'm proud to be one of his descendants and honor his memory, even though some in this thread wound advise against it.
[QUOTE=joshuadim;48045260]Again, where on the statue does it show/say it symbolizes white supremacy?[/QUOTE] It specifically honors "confederate defenders." Not all lives that were lost during the war, specifically the confederate defenders. The confederate defenders were defending the right to own slaves, and the right to own slaves is based in the idea of white supremacy. So no, it's not literally written on the statue. The statue does not literally say "fuck yeah white supremacy." But symbols rarely literally say outright what they represent. That's why they're symbols. [QUOTE=joshuadim;48045283]It's not a memorial for the Confederacy. It's a memorial for the lives lost there.[/QUOTE] the lives lost by volunteers defending the confederacy
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045293]It specifically honors "confederate defenders." Not all lives that were lost during the war, specifically the confederate defenders. The confederate defenders were defending the right to own slaves, and the right to own slaves is based in the idea of white supremacy. So no, it's not literally written on the statue. The statue does not literally say "fuck yeah white supremacy." But symbols rarely literally say outright what they represent. That's why they're symbols.[/QUOTE] The Confederate defenders were residents who took up arms and defended the town against a force that did not care if they were Confederates or not and only sought to level it for existing in a Southern territory - so they became Confederates.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045293]It specifically honors "confederate defenders." Not all lives that were lost during the war, specifically the confederate defenders. The confederate defenders were defending the right to own slaves, and the right to own slaves is based in the idea of white supremacy. So no, it's not literally written on the statue. The statue does not literally say "fuck yeah white supremacy." But symbols rarely literally say outright what they represent. That's why they're symbols.[/QUOTE] You're taking that statement out of context though. The statue represents confederate defenders in the sense that they defended Charleston/Ft. Sumter.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045293]It specifically honors "confederate defenders." Not all lives that were lost during the war, specifically the confederate defenders. The confederate defenders were defending the right to own slaves, and the right to own slaves is based in the idea of white supremacy. So no, it's not literally written on the statue. The statue does not literally say "fuck yeah white supremacy." But symbols rarely literally say outright what they represent. That's why they're symbols.[/QUOTE] But this is the thing. The memorial isn't there as a symbol to say that "white supremacy" was good. And that the Confederate's were right to hold these slaves because they were a more supreme race than them. It's there, and I have to reiterate again, as a piece of HISTORY in the City of Charleston. It just wants to let people know that people have lost their lives to defend Charleston, for whatever reason, and it's just a memorial for the lives lost. Because I'm sure there were people that fought to defend the city to defend the lives that lived in Charleston, and their family members that lived in Charleston. It's not a symbol of "White Oppression in the 1800's" or a symbol of "White Supremacy" or else it would've boldly gone and said that. It's just a simple statue saying that there were lives lost here, a great amount of lives, that tried to defend the city from falling. And that the city is strong. It's just a piece of history.
[QUOTE=Coppermoss;48045288]My great x3 grandfather wasn't middle class, but poor, and he volunteered in 1862 to fight. He enlisted in the neighboring county and was put in the 32nd GA Infantry battalion ,and according to his obituary he saw combat in Charleston. His, and my, hometown was demolished in 1864 shortly after Atlanta fell. He survived the war and went back home to carry on until his death in 1912 or 13, can't remember right now. I'm proud to be one of his descendants and honor his memory, even though some in this thread wound advise against it.[/QUOTE] again, starlight thinks this is hilarious. why is remembering the very people who are responsible for bringing you into the world, who in all likelihood were good men, a bad thing? i just find this mindset incredibly annoying and arrogant. the least you can do is show respect but nah trampling on graves is cool as fuck yo
[QUOTE=joshuadim;48045302]You're taking that statement out of context though. The statue represents confederate defenders in the sense that they defended Charleston/Ft. Sumter.[/QUOTE] The confederate defenders that defended Charleston/Ft. Sumter from people attacking them because the peoples of Charleston/Ft. Sumter really, really liked the idea of owning people and breeding them like animals.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045320]The confederate defenders that defended Charleston/Ft. Sumter from people attacking them because the peoples of Charleston/Ft. Sumter really, really liked the idea of owning people and breeding them like animals.[/QUOTE] smh
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;48045245]do you think all german soldiers were nazis[/QUOTE] Were all confederate soldiers racist slave owners? [QUOTE=The Calzone;48045227] The confederate memorial is specifically dedicated to the actions carried out by "the soldiers" who died defending Fort Sumter during the Civil War. It gives a reason, a location, and a time frame.[/QUOTE] The war memorial on Okinawa that honors American and Japanese soldiers is wrong. Look at all of the warcrimes and rapes that have gone unpunished. Look at how the US generals allowed the racially motivated "no prisoners" policy to go unpunished or how the Japanese were trying to preserve a racist, arguably genocidal empire. Lets just ignore the bravery and sacrifice of the thousands of individual soldiers involved in the battle. The sacrifices of people who wanted to preserve their homeland and sacrifices of people who just wanted peace.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045320]The confederate defenders that defended Charleston/Ft. Sumter from people attacking them because the peoples of Charleston/Ft. Sumter really, really liked the idea of owning people and breeding them like animals.[/QUOTE] More like defending their property from attackers who were hell bent on destroying their way of life/property?
[QUOTE=Starlight 456;48044921]Maybe it isn't 100% solid proof, but the fact that it was the 1860's (A notoriously racist era) in the south (a notoriously racist region) is enough to say that it's likely the majority of confederate soldiers were racist.[/QUOTE] By that token, it's 1945 the Soviets are knocking on the door of Berlin, bombing the every lasting fuck out of anyone and anything indiscriminately, anyone who opposed them is therefore a Nazi and should be treated accordingly. I'm not saying the confederacy was not inherently racist as a regime because it was and slavery played a MASSIVE part in the war even I as an outside Brit knows this, but I also know that you cannot label every single soldier who fought under the flag as a racist because slavery was most certainly not the only issue people had, in some cases not at all. And of course as anyone with a brain knows, history is written by the victors so you should expect a heavy dose of bias. Truths get erased, embellished , doctored or even completely fabricated to paint the winners as the absolute good and the losers as the absolute evil without any blurred lines. There's a story about a WW2 bomber that got shot to shit on a mission and was returning home with virtually no fuselage left and most of the crew wounded or dead, quiet how it managed to stay airborne is amazing, but whats even more amazing was the fact that a German pilot flew along side and decided not to shoot them out the sky instead he guided them across the channel to safety. That story did not come out till 60 years after the war and was kept under the official secrets act, i mean you can't have a story of a friendly German not being a ruthless heartless enemy because it'll make our soldiers think twice before shooting a German in case they were actually a good guy caught up in this hell on the wrong side. There's so many stories like this throughout history. Again before someone jumps down my throat, the confederacy believed in slavery that's wrong they rightfully lost and it's well documented, but ultimately this memorial was to soldiers defending a town, i suspect some of them them likely subject to propaganda or perhaps hear say, telling them the other side are bad guys and if you don't fight them they will rape murder and pillage your town, your friends, your family. will YOU let that happen? I'd bet my house that some people signed up to defend their homes and people they cared about while not caring for the confederate ideology.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045320]The confederate defenders that defended Charleston/Ft. Sumter from people attacking them because the peoples of Charleston/Ft. Sumter really, really liked the idea of owning people and breeding them like animals.[/QUOTE] They defended the place because it was gonna get burned to the fucking ground, and the people that lived in it were gonna have to piss off and hope they'd make it. These people that died didn't want that to happen.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48045324]Were all confederate soldiers racist slave owners?[/QUOTE] again, i never said this?
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045293]The confederate defenders were defending the right to own slaves, and the right to own slaves is based in the idea of white supremacy.[/QUOTE] The right to own slaves was based on cheap labor and economics here, not white supremacy. If the lower class population would have been enough of a workforce, it would most likely have been entirely indentured servitude, because giving someone a little piece of property for 10-20 years of owning them is a lot cheaper than paying to have slaves shipped from africa, on top of paying for the slaves themselves and all of their living expenses.
[QUOTE=joshuadim;48045328]More like defending their property from attackers who were hell bent on destroying their way of life/property?[/QUOTE] their property being people [QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;48045341]The right to own slaves was based on cheap labor and economics here, not white supremacy. If the lower class population would have been enough of a workforce, it would most likely have been entirely indentured servitude, because giving someone a little piece of property for 10-20 years of owning them is a lot cheaper than paying to have slaves shipped from africa, on top of paying for the slaves themselves and all of their living expenses.[/QUOTE] you're forgetting the part where the slavers didn't import their slaves anymore, they just bred black slaves because they had so many of them. the presence of white indentured servants does not erase the existence of black slaves born in to servitude and kept in servitude because the white slave owners figured that black folks don't deserve to have rights
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045342]their property being people[/QUOTE] As well as their homes, cattle, farmland... all of which were being destroyed from oncoming union troops?
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045320]The confederate defenders that defended Charleston/Ft. Sumter from people attacking them because the peoples of Charleston/Ft. Sumter really, really liked the idea of owning people and breeding them like animals.[/QUOTE] Did you really just generalize the entire population of a city? I mean, really? That is just ludicrous. Charleston was home to a large number of people, and the Union army would have burned it to the ground. That would be civilian lives and property destroyed. Is it really so crazy that people actually wanted to protect their home?
[QUOTE=joshuadim;48045349]As well as their homes, cattle, farmland... all of which were being destroyed from oncoming union troops?[/QUOTE] Don't say "as well as" as if there was a large population of slave owners in Charleston.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045342]their property being people[/QUOTE] Their property was their buildings, their homes, their families. It doesn't just come down to the slaves. Because you know there were people that fought to defend the city who had no slaves whatsoever and they wanted to assure their house wasn't a pile of ashes.
[QUOTE=Rocko's;48045354]Their property is also their buildings, their homes, their families. It doesn't just come down to the slaves. Because you know there were people that fought to defend the city who had no slaves whatsoever and they wanted to assure their house wasn't a pile of ashes.[/QUOTE] Their racist, slave owning Confederate buildings, homes and families? Checkmate. :downs:
[QUOTE=joshuadim;48045349]As well as their homes, cattle, farmland... all of which were being destroyed from oncoming union troops?[/QUOTE] Its like saying that a monument to the soldiers that died stopping Hitlers armies at Stalingrad glorifies Stalin and all of his evil policies.
[QUOTE=Doctor Death921;48045350]Did you really just generalize the entire population of a city? I mean, really? That is just ludicrous. Charleston was home to a large number of people, and the Union army would have burned it to the ground. That would be civilian lives and property destroyed. Is it really so crazy that people actually wanted to protect their home?[/QUOTE] The attackers wouldn't have come in the first place if the general population weren't so dedicated to the idea of owning other people.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045369]The attackers wouldn't have come in the first place if the general population weren't so dedicated to the idea of owning other people.[/QUOTE] Again, the Civil War didn't start just because of slavery. Slavery was one motivating factor for the south. States rights and less government interference are also factors for the South seceding and fighting the Union.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045369]The attackers wouldn't have come in the first place if the general population weren't so dedicated to the idea of owning other people.[/QUOTE] You say this like Charleston was just full of slaves. You go down the street, and every house in the whole city of Charleston was just full of slaves, like they were dogs and cats. No, not everyone had slaves in Charleston. No, not everyone was for slavery in Charleston. No, not everyone agreed with the action of the Confederate States, or the state of South Carolina.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045369]The attackers wouldn't have come in the first place if the general population weren't so dedicated to the idea of owning other people.[/QUOTE] Then why didn't the North attack between 1781 and 1860? The North came down hard on the South after the South severed ties to the Union. Slavery caused secession but secession caused the war.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48045324]The war memorial on Okinawa that honors American and Japanese soldiers is wrong. Look at all of the warcrimes and rapes that have gone unpunished. Look at how the US generals allowed the racially motivated "no prisoners" policy to go unpunished or how the Japanese were trying to preserve a racist, arguably genocidal empire. Lets just ignore the bravery and sacrifice of the thousands of individual soldiers involved in the battle. The sacrifices of people who wanted to preserve their homeland and sacrifices of people who just wanted peace.[/QUOTE] The key word you used here is "both." The war memorial in Okinawa honors the lives lost on both sides of the war and isn't supporting either one. It's simply mourning the loss of life. The war memorial in Charleston is specifically mourning the lives lost on the Confederate side, showing a bias for the values held by the confederate soldiers. The values held by the confederate soldiers were bad. [QUOTE=joshuadim;48045373]Again, the Civil War didn't start just because of slavery. Slavery was one motivating factor for the south. States rights and less government interference are also factors for the South seceding and fighting the Union.[/QUOTE] "States rights (to own slaves) and less government interference (in the states rights to own slaves) are also factors for the South seceding and fighting the Union."
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045369]The attackers wouldn't have come in the first place if the general population weren't so dedicated to the idea of owning other people.[/QUOTE] I'm just flat out going to say this is stupid. I mean, it really is. Charleston is a port city, and was likely a target because it was a commercial asset to the confederacy. That is not the fault of the people who lived there. Its an entire city of people, who happen to make a living there. Sherman's march to the sea specifically targeted Confederate commercial and industrial assets to cripple the south and bring the war to an end; its smart and brutal. Your post is just flat out ignorant.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;48045404]The key word you used here is "both." The war memorial in Okinawa honors the lives lost on both sides of the war and isn't supporting either one. It's simply mourning the loss of life. The war memorial in Charleston is specifically mourning the lives lost on the Confederate side, [B]showing a bias for the values held by the confederate soldiers. The values held by the confederate soldiers were bad.[/B][/QUOTE] I'm just gonna restate, hopefully maybe you'll understand, that not all of the people in Charleston that fought to defend it had slaves. Hell, I'd go all the way and say they might even be against holding slaves, and the whole value of having a slave is good. Because as shitty as your place might be, if someone was gonna come and fuck shit up, your first priority is to defend your friends, family, and anyone else you value. And when it comes to that, you will defend yourself, or your place of living, if necessary. And this is exactly what these people did.
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