Pakistan family slits throats of young couple over love marriage
55 replies, posted
As societies get more educated in an overall sense, stuff like this goes away. What we need is a better education [i]system[/i] rather than telling them X or Y is bad. Just telling them that when they don't have the logical thinking to let them understand what you're saying won't get you anywhere.
I like to think of it like telling a guy who's never even heard of Chess before to play him in a match. They won't be able to do that because they don't even know how to play the game at that point - what we need to do is teach them to make that then possible.
edit:
Another issue is poverty, which causes the vast majority of suffering in the world, and education is a huge part of that particular issue.
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[editline]28th June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Aircraft;45242828]-----[/QUOTE]
really? break my post up for this? :v:
[editline]28th June 2014[/editline]
Making use of this broken auto-merge:
[QUOTE=snookypookums;45242846]Not just poverty, but also the apathy that it breeds.
When you're poor and in a country where nobody gives a shit about you, you're going to stop caring about what you do to other people because nobody cares, so what's there to lose, right?
Poverty and Apathy seem to go hand in hand almost.
Aw. :(, you snipped.[/QUOTE]
I moved it into the higher post where I meant it to be. But yeah, you're entirely on the dot there. People's situations effect their behavior a lot more than they realize; poverty is a terrible thing.
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;45242829]-snip-[/QUOTE]
Not just poverty, but also the apathy that it breeds.
When you're poor and in a country where nobody gives a shit about you, you're going to stop caring about what you do to other people because nobody cares, so what's there to lose, right?
Poverty and Apathy seem to go hand in hand almost.
Aw. :(, you snipped.
Its mainly because poverty is usually stigmatized as a fact of life rather than a changeable condition. Its already bad enough in developed nations, but its even worse considering its fucking Pakistan.
[editline]29th June 2014[/editline]
Actually atm I cannot find it, but there was a very good study in the United States where large slums were surveyed in order to see their position on their own poverty. In a large majority of the people said that they felt they could not get out of poverty even with their best efforts.
Poverty is created from a myriad of different factors, so just throwing money at poor people isn't going to fix the issue.
Education, law enforcement, and culture all play roles into it so deeply there's no real way to eliminate it without tackling all of those issues.
[editline]28th June 2014[/editline]
Putting up a law doesn't mean it will be enforced because of the culture. Teaching people what's right and wrong doesn't mean we can stop it from happening again if there are no laws punishing people or preventing it from happening in the first place. And of course culture isn't something you can change directly, so that makes an even larger hurdle to cover.
[editline]28th June 2014[/editline]
solving all the world's problems is fuckin' tough man :v:
[QUOTE=snookypookums;45242795]Well said - but what help can we provide for these people?
I've thought about how education can help eradicate such beliefs, but how do you begin, what conclusive and decisive arguments can you use to bring rational thought to a person who is, essentially, going through the motions his ancestors have gone through for hundreds of years?
So is law the better option for eradicating this behavior, or is it education? I'm conflicted.[/QUOTE]
I would have to side with the law on this one.
I don't know if I could give a good example of this but some people will defy whatever you teach them education wise because it goes against their religion, so in fact it may be a futile effort to educate such people if all they were taught to believe was a backwards ass religion.
Back in the day, regardless of if you were right in telling them the earth was in fact round when they believed it was flat, they would still fuck you over.
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[QUOTE=Siminov;45242901]Back in the day, regardless of if you were right in telling them the earth was in fact round when they believed it was flat, they would still fuck you over.[/QUOTE]
Funny thing, this was a myth created by two atheist authors in the sixties (or 70's, don't remember) who wanted to discredit the church.
Which is funny because the Bible even mentions that the earth is round in several passages :v:
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;45243009]Funny thing, this was a myth created by two atheist authors in the sixties (or 70's, don't remember) who wanted to discredit the church.
Which is funny because the Bible even mentions that the earth is round in several passages :v:[/QUOTE]
I guess it was not a good example after all but you get my point, they are ignorant to the right teachings and would rather follow the wrong ones. I think the only way to fix that is the use of law enforcement and in some cases capital punishment (I know :v: )
The United States should deploy the military to the middle east & take over the entire middle eastern countries, which will be turned into U.S. states. Laws from here will be enforced over there. Then a generation later, the middle east won't be an awful place.
[QUOTE=Siminov;45243025]I guess it was not a good example after all but you get my point, they are ignorant to the right teachings and would rather follow the wrong ones. I think the only way to fix that is the use of law enforcement and in some cases capital punishment (I know :v: )[/QUOTE]
Sorry to burst your bubble, but dead people don't learn anything :v:
[editline]29th June 2014[/editline]
And the death penalty doesn't deter crime in the least, this has been known for a very long time.
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;45243253]Sorry to burst your bubble, but dead people don't learn anything :v:
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Life imprisonment without parole may be a cruel fate on the flip side, would probably be a better option. Then again with these developing countries, money to house people with life sentences may be a bit scarce.
[QUOTE]
And the death penalty doesn't deter crime in the least, this has been known for a very long time.[/QUOTE]
And what about Singapore?
[QUOTE=Siminov;45243272]Life imprisonment without parole may be a cruel fate on the flip side, would probably be a better option. Then again with these developing countries, money to house people with life sentences may be a bit scarce.[/QUOTE]
Not sure about other countries, but in order for someone to have a fair trial and to go through the proceedings for the death penalty in the US, as well as the associated costs for the supplies and people trained, the death penalty ends up costing SIGNIFICANTLY more than having someone locked up in jail forever.
[QUOTE=Siminov;45243272]And what about Singapore?[/QUOTE]
Not sure what you're trying to prove with this point. What about Singapore? They sentence people to death if they smuggle even an ounce of weed and that certainly hasn't stopped the serious drug trafficking problem the country has.
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;45243291]Not sure about other countries, but in order for someone to have a fair trial and to go through the proceedings for the death penalty, as well as the associated costs for the supplies and people trained, the death penalty ends up costing SIGNIFICANTLY more than having someone locked up in jail forever.
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That is the first world countries, I highly doubt 3rd world countries would go through the trouble for an execution and just shoot the guy on site.
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Not sure what you're trying to prove with this point. What about Singapore? They sentence people to death if they smuggle an ounce of weed and that certainly hasn't stopped the serious drug trafficking problem the country has.[/QUOTE]
I was going to say that Singapore and its strict set of laws is a very good deterrent for wrongdoing and they were very successful in using capital punishment as a deterrent. But...
Well they do have a very low crime rate
The trafficking could be an issue but murder, rape and the like are very very low.
[QUOTE]Immodest behaviour that sparked recent killings included singing, looking out of the window or talking to a man who is not a relative.[/QUOTE]
Friendly reminder that this country has access to nuclear weapons.
[QUOTE=V12US;45243867]Friendly reminder that this country has access to nuclear weapons.[/QUOTE]
i'm waiting for the inevitable "terrorists steal nuke"(this is actually an al-qaeda objective btw).
can't help but wonder how the US or europe would react if terrorists got their hands in a nuke, or worst, how israel would react.
[QUOTE=Riller;45238799]Pakistani gov't = EAbisoft?[/QUOTE]
Shut up it's a feature
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;45242754]A human life is still a human life regardless. You're dehumanizing them for their actions, which is disgusting all by itself, and it's just what the family did in order to kill the couple. Nobody deserves to have their life taken from them without their consent.
In those people's eyes, they did what they thought was right. Are they evil for acting upon their beliefs? No, not in the least. You need to recognize that the issue isn't the human beings themselves (and if it is then they're mentally ill, in which case killing still isn't okay), it's the values that these particular human beings have. More violence and death is unnecessary when you could just teach these people what's wrong and give them [i]help[/i].[/QUOTE]
In Miskav's eyes, he would be doing the right thing. Teach him some values.
I like how this thread goes to saying how we need a cultural revolution or a huge change when stuff like this happens few and far between and would have happened regardless what cultural context it was in because they were insane.
I'll admit it's not completely perfect but I'd rather keep my culture thanks.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;45243889]Shut up it's a feature[/QUOTE]
They were paid off by Afghanistan, India and Iran to make the Pakistan-platform not look superior.
[editline]29th June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=mchapra;45244632]I like how this thread goes to saying how we need a cultural revolution or a huge change when stuff like this happens few and far between and would have happened regardless what cultural context it was in because they were insane.
I'll admit it's not completely perfect but I'd rather keep my culture thanks.[/QUOTE]
I'm not gonna jump full-on the whole westernization-circlejerk-bandwagon, but
[QUOTE] The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan said 869 so-called "honour killings" were reported in the media last year - several a day. But the true figure is probably much higher since many cases are never reported.[/QUOTE]
Not that few and far between.
[QUOTE=Riller;45244689]
I'm not gonna jump full-on the whole westernization-circlejerk-bandwagon, but
Not that few and far between.[/QUOTE]
Except the media ascribes honor killing to absolutely anything here that they can't attach a meaning to and it tends to only happen in rural areas where there's no cops and infrastructure kind of points me to the direction that it's wholly the government's mishandling of this situation, not anything to do with the predominant religion or culture.
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[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;45242754]A human life is still a human life regardless. You're dehumanizing them for their actions, which is disgusting all by itself, and it's just what the family did in order to kill the couple. Nobody deserves to have their life taken from them without their consent.
In those people's eyes, they did what they thought was right. Are they evil for acting upon their beliefs? No, not in the least. You need to recognize that the issue isn't the human beings themselves (and if it is then they're mentally ill, in which case killing still isn't okay), it's the values that these particular human beings have. More violence and death is unnecessary when you could just teach these people what's wrong and give them [I]help[/I].[/QUOTE]
That's all very pretty except for the fact that most of these people are beyond help, it's like trying to teach someone who has been brainwashed since they were a child to believe in God, that God doesn't exist. For them God is real and always will be. Sure, some can have a mind of their own but that's because they weren't brainwashed enough. Once they're past the age where most of the stuff gets hardcoded into the brain, it's useless to attempt to change them.
Keep in mind I'm not saying having a religion or believing in a God is wrong, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, but I'm of the opinion that nobody should be taught religion before their brain is fully developed so that they can ask questions of their own, before that it is pure brainwashing.
[QUOTE=Miskav;45241013]Killing a killer isn't stooping to his level. [/quote]
Mother of contradictions
[quote]If you'd kill an innocent person, you'd be stooping to his level.
All you're doing in the first case is punishing them.[/QUOTE]
The couple married without consent. They weren't innocent in the families' eyes. Does that justify their murders, then?
You can't try to claim the moral high ground while at the same time declaring that murder is a justifiable punishment for anything
I'd like to point out they apparently used a fucking [B]scythe[/B].
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