[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;23147114]Explain how I do this, what does Israel export? I don't typically buy TAR 21 rifles by the dozen and I know of very few Israeli exports which are not arms.[/QUOTE]
I just took a look at their exports and they apparently made $5 billion in polished diamonds in 1996. They also make plenty of high tech stuff, Intel apparently made $3.4 billion in an Israeli manufacturing plant in 2009.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23146583]
You keep saying it's stolen land and I keep proving you it's not, when will you learn?
[/QUOTE]
How is the land [i]not[/i] stolen? I've never seen one post making a logical argument that the land wasn't stolen from the Palestinians.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;23147883]How is the land [i]not[/i] stolen? I've never seen one post making a logical argument that the land wasn't stolen from the Palestinians.[/QUOTE]
Are you referring to Israel's official borders or the West Bank? Because the West Bank can is illegally occupied, and the rest of Israel isn't. (If you mean Israel then I'll explain it in my next post).
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23147903]Are you referring to Israel's official borders or the West Bank? Because the West Bank can is illegally occupied, and the rest of Israel isn't. (If you mean Israel then I'll explain it in my next post).[/QUOTE]
I mean Israel itself. That land was taken from the Palestinians and given to the "Israelis" of the time.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23147903]Are you referring to Israel's official borders or the West Bank? Because the West Bank can is illegally occupied, and the rest of Israel isn't. (If you mean Israel then I'll explain it in my next post).[/QUOTE]
I especially love how you avoid the 13 year old getting tied to a truck story.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;23147933]I mean Israel itself. That land was taken from the Palestinians and given to the "Israelis" of the time.[/QUOTE]
OK, let's take a look at the history of the region:
1880 - The Turkish empire controls Palestine, many Arabs are living there and very, very few Jews only in Jerusalem. Inspired by nationalistic movements and events such as Italy's and Germany's reunification, and Greece's revolt against the Turks, some Jews believe they can be a nation too, and must work to end the diaspora and create their own national home in a single piece of land, and not be spread out like they were in the last 1900 years, they choose Palestine for its historical and spiritual significance to the Jewish people, and slowly immigrate there, they call themselves the Zionists (Zion is a name for Jerusalem).
1918 - Immigration to Palestine was moving slowly until WWI started, and the early Zionists decided to help the British against the Turkish empire. The British then got the Mandate of Palestine, which encompassed Jordan as well, and wanted to give 90% of it (Jordan) to the Arabs, while the Jews will receive the remaining 10% (Israel), by the Arabs declined, so It was decided that Jordan will be given to the Arabs, and half of Palestine will be given to the Jews while the other half will go to the Arabs living there. The Jews start to immigrate faster since the British allow more to immigrate than the Turkish empire, they irrigate the land and turn swamps and deserts into fertile green land.
1920's - In the 20's the Arabs realized that the Jews keep coming to Palestine and that they will eventually get their own state, so a few terrorist groups begin an armed conflict with the Zionists and the British as well.
1930's - During these years a lot of Jews immigrated to Palestine, the most before WWII. The armed conflict in turn only grew, and a few Zionist terrorist organizations started operating as well, but the majority of the Zionists condemned them (don't know if it's the same about the Arabs).
1945 - In the end of WWII many holocaust survivors came to Palestine, but most of them went to the US (before WWII it was very hard for a Jew immigrating out of Europe to get to anywhere beside Palestine). By this year it was obvious to the world that a Jewish state must exist, and since there was already a Jewish national home in Palestine, it would just be silly to create a Jewish state somewhere else.
1948 - After several proposals of a one-state solution and two-state solution, the UN has agreed to the partition of the 181'st resolution, which gives 53% of the land to the Jews, and 47% to the Arabs. Aside from the desert (the southernmost, biggest part of land of Israel in this picture: [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png/200px-UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png[/IMG])
the Jews got 20% of the useful land, land which they have lived in for ~40 years, and turned from swamps to useful, fertile land, the Arabs got the other 80% of the useful land.
The Jews, who have accepted many other proposals including a one-state solution with Arab majority and a state-council-government-thingy with 11 representatives, 9 of which will be Arabs and 2 will be Jewish, have of course accepted this proposal and declared their own state. The Arabs on the other hand would never allow a Jewish state in Palestine, and declared war on Israel. So, Israel was attacked on its first day by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and a few extreme Islamic organizations as well, and won. They also got a nice bit of territory out of the war, and evicted about 700,000 Arabs from the newly conquered territory, just like how many Arab states did to ~700,000 Jews. Arabs who have lived in Israel's proposed borders however received full citizenship.
So please tell me how could the land be considered stolen.
[editline]02:29PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sickle;23147961]I especially love how you avoid the 13 year old getting tied to a truck story.[/QUOTE]
I don't have much to say about it.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23146583]Our blood too.[/QUOTE]
If this was TF2, i'd call for teams...
[QUOTE=yawmwen;23147883]How is the land [i]not[/i] stolen? I've never seen one post making a logical argument that the land wasn't stolen from the Palestinians.[/QUOTE]
The UN gave them the land. Its not stolen, its legal.
Also, the Israelis have a right to live there. They fought for the land, against 5 countries at the same time.
Anti-israel supporters have the same mindset the fascist arab nations do: Kill all Israelis and take the land back.
[QUOTE=Uberman77883;23148938]The UN gave them the land. Its not stolen, its legal.
Also, the Israelis have a right to live there. They fought for the land, against 5 countries at the same time.
Anti-israel supporters have the same mindset the fascist arab nations do: Kill all Israelis and take the land back.[/QUOTE]
They might have "right" for the land they've been given, but what about that brutal expansion?
[QUOTE=ToXiCsoldier;23151421]They might have "right" for the land they've been given, but what about that brutal expansion?[/QUOTE]
If you are referring to the '48 war, it was started by the Arabs, and Israel got lands that belong to nobody, just like how Jordan got the West Bank and Egypt got the Gaza Strip.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23146583]That's like saying the Americans created the mess of trying to get independence from Britain. And unlike the Americans, the Zionists rarely fought the British (only rogue groups like the Lehi and the Irgun, and they did so rarely too).[/quote]
not even close
[quote]Our blood too.[/quote]
oh no, like 5 people died
[quote]You keep saying it's stolen land and I keep proving you it's not, when will you learn?[/quote]
just because the UN ignored the Palestinians doesn't fucking mean it's perfectly alright
[quote]Saying all of the Zionists are at fault for a few rogue group's crimes is like saying all the Muslims are at fault for Al-Qaeda. Well, are they?[/quote]
Islam is a religion, Zionism itself is a terrorist ideology
[quote]You're the fucking guy who won't understand that many of these alleged "war crimes" aren't really war crimes.[/quote]
bombing hospitals with White phosphorous... isn't a war crime
errrrrr
[quote]Do you even know what's a pessimist?[/quote]
opposite of optimist?...
[quote]Gaza =\= West Bank. The Fatah are a lot more cooperative than the Hamas, and as you can see, Abbas agreed right upfront to Israel's two biggest conditions for peace.
The only thing I could think of that might hinder peace is these two possible outcomes: After the West Bank regains independence a terrorist organization could take over it and attack Israel, maybe with Iran's help which could get there much easier than Gaza.
Or the situation will be like Lebanon, where the government isn't responsible for any terrorist action, but a terrorist group has control of quite a large portion of the country and will engage in terrorist actions against Israel.[/QUOTE]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuDv22uc6EI[/media]
[editline]04:55PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23151658]If you are referring to the '48 war, it was started by the Arabs, and Israel got lands that belong to nobody, just like how Jordan got the West Bank and Egypt got the Gaza Strip.[/QUOTE]
Slaughtering whole villages of people, terrorism against British/Palestine, and killing innocents in a desperate attempt to steal land
is... not a reason to go to war?
[editline]04:55PM[/editline]
you will fucking corners everywhere you can, won't you
you fucking evil little bastard
[editline]04:57PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23148298]
So please tell me how could the land be considered stolen.
[/QUOTE]
the problem here is you think it's free grabs because it's not the same fucking thing on paper. People LIVE there you tool. When you kill the people who work and live on the land and have been for a long fucking time, it's stealing.
[editline]04:58PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Uberman77883;23148938]The UN gave them the land. Its not stolen, its legal.
Also, the Israelis have a right to live there. They fought for the land, against 5 countries at the same time.
Anti-israel supporters have the same mindset the fascist arab nations do: Kill all Israelis and take the land back.[/QUOTE]
Even anti-Israel... Israeli's?
lol, your post is ridiculous.
[QUOTE=Warhol;23152361]oh no, like 5 people died[/quote]
Since the Zionists came to Palestine more than 100 years ago, a lot more than 5 Jews died. And no, Palestinians didn't die like 4 times as much, not even twice as much, but I'm gonna guess maybe like 1.5 more than Jews maximum.
[quote]just because the UN ignored the Palestinians doesn't fucking mean it's perfectly alright[/quote]
It didn't ignore the Arabs, there were a lot more proposals which were quite in favor of the Arabs and they still rejected them because they wouldn't allow the Jews their own state. Their greed, their fault.
[quote]Islam is a religion, Zionism itself is a terrorist ideology[/quote]
How is it a terrorist ideology? Please enlighten me. And no, saying "Lehi, Irgun etc." isn't enough. I want you to prove that Zionism's ideology is terroristic, not the various Zionist organization (which most of the Zionists condemned).
[quote]bombing hospitals with White phosphorous... isn't a war crime
errrrrr[/quote]
Not if it's to create smoke screen.
[quote]opposite of optimist?...[/quote]
So how does that make you the bad guys, and also, I never said you were "the pessimists".
[quote]Slaughtering whole villages of people[/quote]
Was done by rogue organizations.
[quote]terrorism against British/Palestine[/quote]
Same, mostly, and don't forget it was only as countermeasures, they used terror because terror was used against them first, and they used terror against the British because they wanted independence (same as the Americans did).
[quote]and killing innocents in a desperate attempt to steal land[/quote]
Most of them were expelled, the ones who were killed were again, killed by rogue organizations. It wasn't a desperate attempt to steal land, they just drove back the Arabs and got some land out of it as well. You make it sound like they made the Arabs start the war in order to gain land.
[quote]you will fucking corners everywhere you can, won't you
you fucking evil little bastard[/quote]
I will fucking corners? what?
[quote]the problem here is you think it's free grabs because it's not the same fucking thing on paper. People LIVE there you tool. When you kill the people who work and live on the land and have been for a long fucking time, it's stealing.[/quote]
Oh, I'm sorry, they didn't want their land taken? Then maybe they shouldn't have risked going to war, because you know, when you lose a war, usually your land is taken (not stolen).
[quote]Even anti-Israel... Israeli's?
lol, your post is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
anti-Israeli Israelis? I don't there are many of those, maybe you meant anti-Israeli Jews?
1. How the fuck is an ideology that an ethnic group should get their own country a terrorist ideology? Almost every single ethnic group in the world with the exception of a very small few don't have a place they can safely inhabit.
2. Israel took the land because the Arab countries wanted to kill every Jew in Israel, and Israel won despite impeccable odds.
3. Hamas were using hospitals, schools, and mosques as fucking mortar bunkers and logistics centers. They were using innocent Palestinians as human shields.
But how the fuck does White Phosphorous have a purpose as a smoke screen? Its incendiary ammunition, meant to burn shit.
No, the rules banning incendiary weapons specifically say that white phosphorus isn't included, because its primary use is as a smokescreen. Actually it's a really weak weapon. Sure it could cause a world of pain on a few people, but a good weapon would be able to hurt a lot more and cause just enough damage to kill. What I mean is that for weapons, the quantity of people hurt is mostly more important by the degree of their injuries, as long as the injuries actually do something.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23157210]Actually it's a really weak weapon. Sure it could cause a world of pain on a few people, but a good weapon would be able to hurt a lot more and cause just enough damage to kill. [/QUOTE]
Stop.
[QUOTE=starpluck;23157530]Stop.[/QUOTE]
What? It's really, really inefficient.
Edit: In killing people, that is.
[QUOTE=Uberman77883;23157127]1. How the fuck is an ideology that an ethnic group should get their own country a terrorist ideology? Almost every single ethnic group in the world with the exception of a very small few don't have a place they can safely inhabit.
2. Israel took the land because the Arab countries wanted to kill every Jew in Israel, and Israel won despite impeccable odds.
3. Hamas were using hospitals, schools, and mosques as fucking mortar bunkers and logistics centers. They were using innocent Palestinians as human shields.
But how the fuck does White Phosphorous have a purpose as a smoke screen? Its incendiary ammunition, meant to burn shit.[/QUOTE]
Can't you see these people aren't mature enough to actual dicuss thing? They just spout the same shit all over again, thread-after-thread, always avoiding and evading any arguments that hit their core-beliefs right in the place it hurts. It's useless.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23158650]What? It's really, really inefficient.
Edit: In killing people, that is.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&tbs=isch:1&q=white+phosphorus+burns&revid=1771944163&sa=X&ei=HOY0TIybNKaiOLXYyNkB&ved=0CCQQ1QIoAw[/url]
i'm not even going to warrant responding to you anymore, burnemdown, you're a soulless Zionist husk of a human being. I'm sure your government is proud.
As I've said, it causes unimaginable suffering to a few targets, but as a weapon it's ineffective because it can't hit as many targets as regular weapons would, like bombs or whatever.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23189080]As I've said, it causes unimaginable suffering to a few targets, but as a weapon it's ineffective because it can't hit as many targets as regular weapons would, like bombs or whatever.[/QUOTE]
that's a ton of fucking WP
[img]http://isiria.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/white-phosphorus.jpg[/img]
[img]http://marxistleninist.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/white_phosphorus1.jpg[/img]
More like moving forwards on Palestine
[QUOTE=Warhol;23189463]that's a ton of fucking WP
[img]http://isiria.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/white-phosphorus.jpg[/img]
[/QUOTE]
Look at the spot here that seems to be flaming up, it's next to the ambulance. If a real bomb would land there, there wouldn't be any ambulance to look at.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23189662]Look at the spot here that seems to be flaming up, it's next to the ambulance. If a real bomb would land there, there wouldn't be any ambulance to look at.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23189662]Hey, If a nuke would land there, there wouldn't be anything to look at.[/QUOTE]
Considering it's a UN hospital with civilians in the area maybe they shouldn't you know bomb it?
Why did you edit my quote to say "nuke" instead of "real bomb"?
We've been through the "why they bombed it" thing already, right now we're discussing how effective is WP as a weapon.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23190414]Why did you edit my quote to say "nuke" instead of "real bomb"?
We've been through the "why they bombed it" thing already, right now we're discussing how effective is WP as a weapon.[/QUOTE]
Because I'm showing your level of absurdity, you're arguing that it could of been worse with a bigger weapon. Nothing should be dropped on a UN hospital with civilians in the area.
I understand it can act as a smoke screen, but it's simply negligence and lack of empathy for civilian life to deploy WP on a hospital where civilians will inevitable be burned to death.
Even if there were insurgents like Israel claims, it would still be an offensive use to fire on such a position. If they fired the WP as a defensive smokescreen (like the claim) they shouldn't have deployed it right over a hospital, as that suddenly turns it into an offensive weapon. WP has two uses, as a smokescreen AND anti-personnel weapon.
He tries to make it look like a rational discussion while he actually defends Zionism.
[QUOTE=FreedomFighter;23190814]He tries to make it look like a rational discussion while he actually defends Zionism.[/QUOTE]
stop
Well, I'm not sure but I think that the two officers who were disciplined were at fault for this event.
[editline]03:02AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=FreedomFighter;23190814]He tries to make it look like a rational discussion while he actually defends Zionism.[/QUOTE]
Oh look at me, defending a nation's right to self-sovereignty, how evil of me.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23190968]Well, I'm not sure but I think that the two officers who were disciplined were at fault for this event.
[/QUOTE]
So why did you defend it's use against the hospital a page back? Whatever even happened to those officers, didn't they just get a slap on the wrist?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23190968]
Oh look at me, defending a nation's right to self-sovereignty, how evil of me.[/QUOTE]
Theres nothing wrong with defending your country, but it depends on what you try to defend. As an American I wouldn't defend some of the massacres that US troops undertook in Vietnam as a nation's right to self-sovereignty.
[QUOTE=Sporkfire;23191216]So why did you defend it's use against the hospital a page back? Whatever even happened to those officers, didn't they just get a slap on the wrist?[/quote]
I didn't defend them a page back, maybe you're confusing with another thread. The UN's report do say, however, that there were no terrorists in the building, while the Israeli report showed that rockets were being launched from the area, so it's not like the two officers said "hey let's bomb the UN it'll be funny". Also, they got a "slap on the wrist" according to one official who was speaking figuratively. He actually said that the punishment was "like a slap on the wrist", which of course means they weren't punished enough still.
[quote]Theres nothing wrong with defending your country, but it depends on what you try to defend. As an American I wouldn't defend some of the massacres that US troops undertook in Vietnam.[/QUOTE]
Zionism was Jewish nationalism before Israel, and since Israel's creation it's changed to supporting the Jewish State.
Supporting Iran doesn't mean you're necessarily a bad person or whatever, so supporting Israel surely doesn't as well.
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