Israeli military finds flotilla killings justified. Is anyone surprised?
271 replies, posted
[QUOTE=starpluck;23325575]BurnEmDown, no.
Just because they allow some basic materials while banning most of them, does not constitute "unimpededly allowing basic materials."[/QUOTE]
Allowing some while banning most? My list is bigger than yours.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23325737]Allowing some while banning most? My list is bigger than yours.[/QUOTE]
The list I posted has more basic materials banned.
I'm still not seeing as to why Fishing supplies are prohibited.
[QUOTE=Llivavin;23325858]I'm still not seeing as to why Fishing supplies are prohibited.[/QUOTE]
Because then they might be self-sufficient and that is a terroristic quality.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23325456]Neeeeewp. Especially not when these are allowed:
flour 2009
sugar 2009
sweetener
rice 2009
salt 2009
cooking oil 2009
semolina 2009
yeast 2009
pasta 2009
chickpeas 2009
beans
kidney beans 2009
lentils 2009
peas
Burgul wheat
corn
lupini beans
powdered milk 2009
dairy products 2009
margarine 2009
hummus paste
frozen meat and fish 2009
frozen vegetables 2009
vitamins and oil for animal feed 2009
empty bags for flour 2009
medicine and medical equipment 2009
diapers 2009
feminine hygiene products 2009
toilet paper 2009
baby wipes november 2009
shampoo & conditioner 2009
soap & liquid soap 2009
toothpaste 2009
laundry detergent
fabric softener
dish soap
glass cleaner
floor cleaning fluid
cleaning liquid for bathroom use 2009
chlorine
insecticide for household use
coffee october 2009
tea october 2009
salami meat november 2009
canned meat november 2009
canned fish
sponges for cleaning dishes
sponges for washing november 2009
mopping rags
cleaning rags
all canned food except canned fruit november 2009
za'atar spice november 2009
black pepper november 2009
sesame november 2009
powdered chicken stock november 2009
blankets november 2009
matches december 2009
candles december 2009
broomsticks december 2009
mops december 2009
dustpans
trash cans december 2009
aniseed december 2009
chamomile december 2009
cinnamon december 2009
wastewater purification powder
glass - 200 trucks december 2009
water coolers + heaters
mineral water february 2010
Tahini (sesame paste) march 2010
hair brushes march 2010
hair combs march 2010
shoes march 2010
clothes march 2010
wood (for doors and window frames) april 2010
aluminum april 2010
soft plastic bags
fruit 2009
vegetables
hay
fertilized eggs 2009
agricultural materials june 2009
chemical fertilizer
plastic buckets
plastic crates for fruits and vegetables
plastic chicken cages
egg cartons
cartons for transporting chicks
fiberglass and plastic trays for planting
various kinds of agricultural seeds
eggs (for eating)
greenhouse nylon
various kinds of veterinary medications and products
wheat 2009
barley
animal feed 2009
[/QUOTE]
2009 means first half of 2009, the rest are categorized by months as well.
We can see that:
barley, various kinds of veterinary medications and products, greenhouse nylon, eggs (for eating), chemical fertilizer, plastic, buckets, plastic crates for fruits and vegetables, plastic chicken cages, egg cartons, cartons for transporting, chicks, fiberglass and plastic trays for planting
various kinds of agricultural seeds, vegetables, hay, soft plastic bags, water coolers + heaters, dustpans, mopping rags, cleaning rags, sponges for cleaning dishes, canned fish, insecticide for household use, chlorine, laundry detergent, fabric softener, dish soap, glass cleaner, floor cleaning fluid, hummus paste, lupini beans, corn, burgul wheat, peas, beans, and sweetener,
were all allowed during the entire blockade. It's not enough, I know, but it passes as humanitarian aid and that's everything Israel has to allow. I'd also like to mention how the most important products that weren't initially allowed were allowed in the first half of 2009, for example: wheat, agricultural materials, fruit, matches, canned meat, medicine and medicinal equipment, and dairy products.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23326178]2009 means first half of 2009, the rest are categorized by months as well.
We can see that:
barley, various kinds of veterinary medications and products, greenhouse nylon, eggs (for eating), chemical fertilizer, plastic, buckets, plastic crates for fruits and vegetables, plastic chicken cages, egg cartons, cartons for transporting, chicks, fiberglass and plastic trays for planting
various kinds of agricultural seeds, vegetables, hay, soft plastic bags, water coolers + heaters, dustpans, mopping rags, cleaning rags, sponges for cleaning dishes, canned fish, insecticide for household use, chlorine, laundry detergent, fabric softener, dish soap, glass cleaner, floor cleaning fluid, hummus paste, lupini beans, corn, burgul wheat, peas, beans, and sweetener,
were all allowed during the entire blockade. It's not enough, I know, but it passes as humanitarian aid and that's everything Israel has to allow. I'd also like to mention how the most important products that weren't initially allowed were allowed in the first half of 2009, for example: wheat, agricultural materials, fruit, matches, canned meat, medicine and medicinal equipment, and dairy products.[/QUOTE]
The fact that Medicine and Medical equipment wasn't allowed until the first half of last year is disgusting.
I was under the assumption that, as repeatedly reported in the mainstream media, Israel has agreed to let humanitarian supplies through land checkpoints under the supervision of Israeli authorities, which (I think) is what is planning to happen with the incoming humanitarian ships. Is there evidence to prove otherwise?
[QUOTE=Llivavin;23325858]I'm still not seeing as to why Fishing supplies are prohibited.[/QUOTE]
It's because these aren't labeled as "basic humanitarian aid", which is what Israel must allow into Gaza during the blockade.
Israel has made a mistake of just banning everything it can to make it "easier" for it to prevent smuggles of weapons or whatever, but Netanyahu realized it was a mistake and now instead of a list of "allowed goods" there's a list of "banned goods" which only lists weapons and weapon-acquiring material such as construction material, which are still sent to Gaza when humanitarian aid groups ask for them.
[editline]01:55PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;23326232]I was under the assumption that, as repeatedly reported in the mainstream media, Israel has agreed to let humanitarian supplies through land checkpoints under the supervision of Israeli authorities, which (I think) is what is planning to happen with the incoming humanitarian ships. Is there evidence to prove otherwise?[/QUOTE]
That's true about the present and the recent past, but not about 1 year ago and more, according to these lists.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23326239]It's because these aren't labeled as "basic humanitarian aid", which is what Israel must allow into Gaza during the blockade.
Israel has made a mistake of just banning everything it can to make it "easier" for it to prevent smuggles of weapons or whatever, but Netanyahu realized it was a mistake and now instead of a list of "allowed goods" there's a list of "banned goods" which only lists weapons and weapon-acquiring material such as construction material, which are still sent to Gaza when humanitarian aid groups ask for them.[/QUOTE]
Becoming self sustaining(in a food sense) isn't "basic humanitarian aid"?
ITT teenagers think they know better than governments because they read wikipadia and eat the biased shit the news feed them.
Is there any evidence to show that Israel hindered humanitarian aid flowing into Gaza?
Oh god. Starpluck can't [i]actually[/i] argue. He just disapeares from the thread after he's proven wrong...
Besides, nothing was wrong with the killing of these people because they were attacking the soldiers who legaly boarded their ship...
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23326267]Nope.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Melnek;23326294]ITT teenagers think they know better than governments because they read wikipadia and eat the biased shit the news feed them.[/QUOTE]
I know I'll seem like an idiot for doing this, but what I wrote in my quote above is as was decided by the UN, not me. They've decided on the basic humanitarian supplies thing, and so, they're the ones who confirmed that the blockade was indeed illegal because it let sufficient basic humanitarian supplies through.
[QUOTE=Melnek;23326294]ITT teenagers think they know better than governments because they read wikipadia and eat the biased shit the news feed them.[/QUOTE]
When news is stripped down to its bare bones only the facts remain, remove the sensationalism and you're set to go, that's why the BBC is reliable, little to no sensationalist bullshit.
And you can't deny Israel is being retarded over the Flotilla incident, if they had nothing to hide why would they doctor audio and video footage? Why wouldn't they allow an international inquest? It all points to them doing some shady shit around this man and that's what pisses people off, nothing to hide nothing to fear.
[editline]12:51PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=ohadje;23326502]Oh god. Starpluck can't [i]actually[/i] argue. He just disapeares from the thread after he's proven wrong...
Besides, nothing was wrong with the killing of these people because they were attacking the soldiers who legaly boarded their ship...[/QUOTE]
Any unbiased proof from an international or uninvolved source that the Israeli soldiers only retaliated? If so I'll happily accept that as evidence and agree the Israeli commandos were in the right to open fire with lethal ammunition.
[QUOTE=ohadje;23326502]Oh god. Starpluck can't [i]actually[/i] argue. He just disapeares from the thread after he's proven wrong...
Besides, nothing was wrong with the killing of these people because they were attacking the soldiers who [B]legaly boarded their ship[/B]...[/QUOTE]
Nice flamebaiting right there. Can't you just read the other topics so we don't have to have this exact same discussion for the 111th time?
[QUOTE=ohadje;23326502]Oh god. Starpluck can't [I]actually[/I] argue. He just disapeares from the thread after he's proven wrong...
Besides, nothing was wrong with the killing of these people because they were attacking the soldiers who legaly boarded their ship...[/QUOTE]
I disappeared? Where have I been proven wrong?
Hijacking boats in international waters and killing passengers is, of course, a serious crime. The editors of the London Guardian are quite right to say that "If an armed group of Somali pirates had yesterday boarded six vessels on the high seas, killing at least 10 passengers and injuring many more, a Nato taskforce would today be heading for the Somali coast." It is worth bearing in mind that the crime is nothing new. For decades, Israel has been hijacking boats in international waters between Cyprus and Lebanon, killing or kidnapping passengers, sometimes bringing them to prisons in Israel including secret prison/torture chambers, sometimes holding them as hostages for many years. Israel assumes that it can carry out such crimes with impunity because the US tolerates them and Europe generally follows the US lead.
Much the same is true of Israel's pretext for its latest crime: that the Freedom Flotilla was bringing materials that could be used for bunkers for rockets. Putting aside the absurdity, if Israel were interested in stopping Hamas rockets it knows exactly how to proceed: accept Hamas offers for a cease-fire. In June 2008, Israel and Hamas reached a cease-fire agreement. The Israeli government formally acknowledges that until Israel broke the agreeement on November 4, invading Gaza and killing half a dozen Hamas activists, Hamas did not fire a single rocket. Hamas offered to renew the cease-fire. The Israeli cabinet considered the offer and rejected it, preferring to launch its murderous and destructive Operation Cast Lead on December 27. Evidently, there is no justification for the use of force "in self-defense" unless peaceful means have been exhausted. In this case they were not even tried, althoughÑor perhaps becauseÑthere was every reason to suppose that they would succeed. Operation Cast Lead is therefore sheer criminal aggression, with no credible pretext, and the same is true of Israel's current resort to force.
The siege of Gaza itself does not have the slightest credible pretext. It was imposed by the US and Israel in January 2006 to punish Palestinians because they voted "the wrong way" in a free election, and it was sharply intensified in July 2007 when Hamas blocked a US-Israeli attempt to overthrow the elected government in a military coup, installing Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan. The siege is savage and cruel, designed to keep the caged animals barely alive so as to fend off international protest, but hardly more than that. It is the latest stage of long-standing Israeli plans, backed by the US, to separate Gaza from the West Bank.
These are only the bare outlines of very ugly policies, in which Egypt is complicit as well.
[url]http://chomsky.info/articles/20100602.htm[/url]
[QUOTE=Hoffa1337;23326805]Nice flamebaiting right there. Can't you just read the other topics so we don't have to have this exact same discussion for the 111th time?[/QUOTE]
They boarded a ship heading to break a blockade that isn't considered illegal by the UN. Yup, seems legal to me.
[editline]02:56PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=FreedomFighter;23326812]Hijacking boats in international waters and killing passengers is, of course, a serious crime. The editors of the London Guardian are quite right to say that "If an armed group of Somali pirates had yesterday boarded six vessels on the high seas, killing at least 10 passengers and injuring many more, a Nato taskforce would today be heading for the Somali coast." It is worth bearing in mind that the crime is nothing new. For decades, Israel has been hijacking boats in international waters between Cyprus and Lebanon, killing or kidnapping passengers, sometimes bringing them to prisons in Israel including secret prison/torture chambers, sometimes holding them as hostages for many years. Israel assumes that it can carry out such crimes with impunity because the US tolerates them and Europe generally follows the US lead.
Much the same is true of Israel's pretext for its latest crime: that the Freedom Flotilla was bringing materials that could be used for bunkers for rockets. Putting aside the absurdity, if Israel were interested in stopping Hamas rockets it knows exactly how to proceed: accept Hamas offers for a cease-fire. In June 2008, Israel and Hamas reached a cease-fire agreement. The Israeli government formally acknowledges that until Israel broke the agreeement on November 4, invading Gaza and killing half a dozen Hamas activists, Hamas did not fire a single rocket. Hamas offered to renew the cease-fire. The Israeli cabinet considered the offer and rejected it, preferring to launch its murderous and destructive Operation Cast Lead on December 27. Evidently, there is no justification for the use of force "in self-defense" unless peaceful means have been exhausted. In this case they were not even tried, althoughÑor perhaps becauseÑthere was every reason to suppose that they would succeed. Operation Cast Lead is therefore sheer criminal aggression, with no credible pretext, and the same is true of Israel's current resort to force.
The siege of Gaza itself does not have the slightest credible pretext. It was imposed by the US and Israel in January 2006 to punish Palestinians because they voted "the wrong way" in a free election, and it was sharply intensified in July 2007 when Hamas blocked a US-Israeli attempt to overthrow the elected government in a military coup, installing Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan. The siege is savage and cruel, designed to keep the caged animals barely alive so as to fend off international protest, but hardly more than that. It is the latest stage of long-standing Israeli plans, backed by the US, to separate Gaza from the West Bank.
These are only the bare outlines of very ugly policies, in which Egypt is complicit as well.
[url]http://chomsky.info/articles/20100602.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
Nice copy-pasta which was already debunked in previous threads.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23326826]
Nice copy-pasta which was already debunked in previous threads.[/QUOTE]
No it wasn't.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23326826]They boarded a ship heading to break a blockade that isn't considered illegal by the UN. Yup, seems legal to me.
[editline]02:56PM[/editline]
Nice copy-pasta which was already debunked in previous threads.[/QUOTE]
You just had to didn't you? When Israel finally drops the ball completely and kill off everything in Gaza you will be in that topic faster than the speed of stupid justifying the living shit out of it. You are a die hard nationalist and you attack everything and everyone that isn't positive towards Israel and its actions.
If Israel were to announce that the laws of physics don't apply to them you'd just nod and agree.
You guys are funny. The fact he doesn't agree with you about some issues don't mean he's a nationalist/insane/stupid. Seriously.
[QUOTE=ohadje;23326999]You guys are funny. The fact he doesn't agree with you about some issues don't mean he's a nationalist/insane/stupid. Seriously.[/QUOTE]
You must have missed his posts where he called everyone hamas supporter, anti-semite and terrorist sympathizer for not agreeing with him.
Edit:
and what bravehat said:
No the fact that he sides with Israel every time despite having no valid evidence to support his view point and immediately calling bullshit on our evidence says he's a biased nationalist.
:colbert: douche bag.
I can vouch for the two above posts.
ohadje, you haven't been on FP long enough to witness anything like that.
Yeah go ahead, use the nationalist/insane/stupid card, but then you bitch about how some people call you antisemitic and that's just wrong. You guys clearly don't know how to argue my points and claims, so you argue about me instead, attacking me personally (and I have never attacked anyone personally here besides the terrorist sympathizers thing, which is true to anyone who says that the "peaceful" flotilla activists who attacked the IDF and are undoubtedly terrorist supporters, were in the right).
You are applying double standards by claiming I attack you and then attacking me yourself, it's so hypocritical that it's absurd.
[editline]03:18PM[/editline]
I could also say that the fact that you deny proof of Israel's justifications over its accusations show that there's just no arguing with you, now are you going to bitch about it or argue?
Despite the fact we have slain your arguments over and over and over and over, yet you refuse to accept it.
You're the worst kind of nationalist there is man, to be honest it verges on thinly veiled Zionism.
And dude, I personally have tore apart your evidence on countless occasions for being biased and not from an international source, your information could be true and I admit that, but the sources set alarm bells ringing for massive bias, like that time your sources for Israel's use of WP in civilian areas were all from the IDF and a local law university which exhibited bias in the very first line.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23327098]Yeah go ahead, use the nationalist/insane/stupid card, but then you bitch about how some people call you antisemitic and that's just wrong. You guys clearly don't know how to argue my points and claims, so you argue about me instead, attacking me personally (and I have never attacked anyone personally here besides the terrorist sympathizers thing, which is true to anyone who says that the "peaceful" flotilla activists who attacked the IDF and are undoubtedly terrorist supporters, were in the right).
You are applying double standards by claiming I attack you and then attacking me yourself, it's so hypocritical that it's absurd.
[editline]03:18PM[/editline]
I could also say that the fact that you deny proof of Israel's justifications over its accusations show that there's just no arguing with you, now are you going to bitch about it or argue?[/QUOTE]
The difference is our claims are based on something, your posts. You on the other hand is just trying to insult people who disagree with you.
You really don't know what you're talking about, huh? Zionism is Jewish nationalism. You can't be a Zionist and not be a nationalist, Zionist is the support of a Jewish state, that's nationalism, being a nation, and supporting it.
No matter how many sources and facts we give you, you always deny it and refuse to accept, it's unfortunate to see you explode in such an immature way.
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