Israeli military finds flotilla killings justified. Is anyone surprised?
271 replies, posted
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23327629][url]http://www.vilp.de/Enpdf/e025.pdf[/url]
"5.2.2 Seizure and condemnation
Cargo constituting contraband and a ship carrying such cargo may be seized by a belligerent, brought
before a prize court and condemned. Confiscation without a prize court decision is prohibited."[/QUOTE]
And since there was no contraband you stand corrected again.
Edit:
[img]http://www.facepunch.com/fp/rating/clock.png[/img]
Here comes the pictures of kitchen utensils found on the boats:
"Neutral vessels believed on reasonable and probable
grounds to be breaching a blockade may be stopped and captured. If they, after prior warning, clearly resist
capture, they may be attacked."
[editline]03:59PM[/editline]
There was, all the things not listed in Israel's "approved" list are considered contraband. Even so, neutral ships may be searched for contraband, it doesn't matter if they do or do not hold contraband, they must let the blockading power search them for it.
[QUOTE]1.4 Inviolability of Neutral Territory
[B]Belligerents must respect the inviolability of neutral territory. In consequence, belligerents may not conduct
hostilities in neutral territory and in neutral waters, except in individual or collective self-defence and subject
to Principle 2.1.[/B] In conducting hostilities elsewhere, belligerents must exercise due regard to prevent to the
maximum extent possible collateral damage on neutral territory, neutral waters or the airspace over these
areas.
2. Belligerent activities in neutral waters
2.1 Hostilities in neutral waters
[B]If neutral waters are permitted or tolerated by the coastal State to be used for belligerent purposes[/B], the
other belligerent may take such action as is necessary and appropriate to terminate such use.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm transporting aid to people in need, could we class that as a belligerent action? :raise:
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23327700]"Neutral vessels believed on reasonable and probable
grounds to be breaching a blockade may be stopped and captured. If they, after prior warning, clearly resist
capture, they may be attacked."[/QUOTE]
Then why didn't IDF seize the boats before they left the harbor then?
[QUOTE=bravehat;23327644]I've saw one of the videos and I saw some dude steal a gun and throw it off the side.
And there's fucking quotes and interviews from folk on the boats like an ex German prime minister three members of Al Jazeera and a Dutch parliamentary member.[/QUOTE]
They were most probably below the deck, without any credibility and valid information on the matter whatsoever, as were most of the truly peaceful activists. When the IDF troops rappelled down, almost nobody was on the deck, but after a few short seconds, 20 or 30 people rushed out of the ship's quarters or whatever it's called and into the upper deck and attacked the commandos.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23327674]Proof please.
[/QUOTE]
Wikipedia: [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Idf_soldier_treated.png[/IMG]
IDF commando being treated by Dr. Hasan Huseyin Uysal, a Turkish doctor.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid#cite_note-ynetnews1-108"][108][/URL] [I]Source: Ali Abunimah, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%BCrriyet"]Hürriyet[/URL][/I]
[quote]You're forgetting that it's been proven already that it was legal. The blockade is legal for the simple fact that the UN security council didn't declare it illegal, that is the only body which comes CLOSE to having that kind of power. And so, it is completely legal for Israel to search ships heading to their blockade, even in international waters.[/QUOTE]
No it hasn't been proven legal. I showed you when: International Red Cross, Amnesty International, UN High Commissioner of Human Rights and the UNSC said it was illegal. You continue to deny it making it impossible to argue with you.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23327740]They were most probably below the deck, without any credibility and valid information on the matter whatsoever, as were most of the truly peaceful activists. When the IDF troops rappelled down, almost nobody was on the deck, but after a few short seconds, 20 or 30 people rushed out of the ship's quarters or whatever it's called and into the upper deck and attacked the commandos.[/QUOTE]
Nope sorry those folk went up on deck to see for themselves what was happening, although there was one guy who was in the quarters with his son wearing gas masks.
[QUOTE=starpluck;23327746]Wikipedia: [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Idf_soldier_treated.png[/IMG]
IDF commando being treated by Dr. Hasan Huseyin Uysal, a Turkish doctor.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid#cite_note-ynetnews1-108"][108][/URL] [I]Source: Ali Abunimah, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%BCrriyet"]Hürriyet[/URL][/I]
[/quote]
Well I wanted proof for the claim that the IDF shot first, but to be fair I wasn't really clear on that.
So any proof that the IDF shot first?
[quote]No it hasn't been proven legal. I showed you when: International Red Cross, Amnesty International, UN High Commissioner of Human Rights and the UNSC said it was illegal. You continue to deny it making it impossible to argue with you.[/QUOTE]
It hasn't really been proven legal, but it hasn't been proven illegal either, which would mean that it is legal. So what if several organizations have called it illegal? They have no power over this and they can't decide these things. Again, the only organization which comes close to having that power, is the UN security council.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23327839]Well I wanted proof for the claim that the IDF shot first, but to be fair I wasn't really clear on that.
So any proof that the IDF shot first?[/QUOTE]
Ask your military to release the videos and you'll have your proof.
Edit:
or ask the 600 passengers.. wait, that won't work since they don't support Israel they are biased and can't be used as withnesses. Better listen to the unbiased saviors of the IDF about what happened. :rolleye:
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23327839]Well I wanted proof for the claim that the IDF shot first, but to be fair I wasn't really clear on that.
So any proof that the IDF shot first?[/quote] ex-Prime Minister of Germany, Holocaust Survivor and everyone elses testimony.
But sure, if the IDF didn't fire first, then why aren't they releasing the videos? Because it will show it did!
[quote]
It hasn't really been proven legal, but it hasn't been proven illegal either, which would mean that it is legal. So what if several organizations have called it illegal? They have no power over this and they can't decide these things. Again, the only organization which comes close to having that power, is the UN security council.[/QUOTE]
They know more about law then you ever will, any rational person would know it's illegal. As I said, it's been already declared illegal by the UNSCR.
Why can't we all get along!!
Israel is bad.
Hamas is bad.
They both do bad things, they make each other do bad things.
We don't see what Hamas does to their own people...
UNSCR: [release]
[B]“2. Calls for the unimpeded provision and distribution throughout Gaza of humanitarian assistance, including of food, fuel and medical treatment;
“3. Welcomes the initiatives aimed at creating and opening humanitarian corridors and other mechanisms for the sustained delivery of humanitarian aid;
“4. Calls on Member States to support international efforts to alleviate the humanitarian and economic situation in Gaza, including through urgently needed additional contributions to UNRWA and through the Ad Hoc Liaison Committee;
[/B]
“5. Condemns all violence and hostilities directed against civilians and all acts of terrorism;
“6. Calls upon Member States to intensify efforts to provide arrangements and guarantees in Gaza in order to sustain a durable ceasefire and calm, including to prevent illicit trafficking in arms and ammunition[B] and to ensure the sustained re‑opening of the crossing points on the basis of the 2005 Agreement on Movement and Access between the Palestinian Authority and Israel; and in this regard, welcomes the Egyptian initiative, and other regional and international efforts that are under way;[/release][/B]
[QUOTE=Hoffa1337;23327888]Ask your military to release the videos and you'll have your proof.[/QUOTE]
How could these videos prove anything anyway? I bet all they'll show will be just boats and helicopters coming in. How can they film evidence that the IDF is shooting directly at them, when the IDF is claiming that it shot warning shots into the air. Videos showing the IDF shooting, possibly on the boats and possibly not, will not prove anything.
Also, why the hell would the IDF shoot on the boat and then rappel down with paintball gun and be all surprised when it's being attacked?? It makes no sense.
[editline]04:15PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=starpluck;23327935]UNSCR: [release]
[B]“2. Calls for the unimpeded provision and distribution throughout Gaza of humanitarian assistance, including of food, fuel and medical treatment;
“3. Welcomes the initiatives aimed at creating and opening humanitarian corridors and other mechanisms for the sustained delivery of humanitarian aid;
“4. Calls on Member States to support international efforts to alleviate the humanitarian and economic situation in Gaza, including through urgently needed additional contributions to UNRWA and through the Ad Hoc Liaison Committee;
[/B]
“5. Condemns all violence and hostilities directed against civilians and all acts of terrorism;
“6. Calls upon Member States to intensify efforts to provide arrangements and guarantees in Gaza in order to sustain a durable ceasefire and calm, including to prevent illicit trafficking in arms and ammunition[B] and to ensure the sustained re‑opening of the crossing points on the basis of the 2005 Agreement on Movement and Access between the Palestinian Authority and Israel; and in this regard, welcomes the Egyptian initiative, and other regional and international efforts that are under way;[/release][/B][/QUOTE]
Not related to the blockade, but to Operation Cast Lead, we've been through this already.
[editline]04:16PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=starpluck;23327925]
They know more about law then you ever will, any rational person would know it's illegal. As I said, it's been already declared illegal by the UNSCR.[/QUOTE]
Then why didn't the UN security council announce it illegal yet? When it is the only organization on the planet who's words could actually change something here.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23327959]How could these videos prove anything anyway? I bet all they'll show will be just boats and helicopters coming in. How can they film evidence that the IDF is shooting directly at them, when the IDF is claiming that it shot warning shots into the air. Videos showing the IDF shooting, possibly on the boats and possibly not, will not prove anything.
Also, why the hell would the IDF shoot on the boat and then rappel down with paintball gun and be all surprised when it's being attacked?? It makes no sense.
[editline]04:15PM[/editline]
Not related to the blockade, but to Operation Cast Lead, we've been through this already.
[editline]04:16PM[/editline]
Then why didn't the UN security council announce it illegal yet? When it is the only organization on the planet who's words could actually change something here.[/QUOTE]
what doesn't make any sense is why they won't release the fucking video or allow the UN to conduct an investigation but instead have their own investigation on it.
why do they need to shoot fucking warning shots when they haven't boarded the craft yet?
this is crooked as a crankshaft
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23327959]How could these videos prove anything anyway? I bet all they'll show will be just boats and helicopters coming in. How can they film evidence that the IDF is shooting directly at them, when the IDF is claiming that it shot warning shots into the air. Videos showing the IDF shooting, possibly on the boats and possibly not, will not prove anything.
Also, why the hell would the IDF shoot on the boat and then rappel down with paintball gun and be all surprised when it's being attacked?? It makes no sense.
[editline]04:15PM[/editline]
Not related to the blockade, but to Operation Cast Lead, we've been through this already.[/QUOTE]
What will prove that the IDF shot first then, Since you dismiss absolutely everything presented to you that doesn't come from Israeli authorities??
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyAlt;23327998]what doesn't make any sense is why they won't release the fucking video or allow the UN to conduct an investigation and instead have their own investigation on it.
this is crooked as a crankshaft[/QUOTE]
I don't know about the videos anymore than I've already said in recent posts, but each country has the right to perform its own investigations on its own military incidents, this happens all the time and nobody says anything when another country does this, except when Israel is involved.
I bet BurnEmDown is an israel spy, no one is that nutjob to defend something with passion only they themselfs can understand without payment
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23327959]
Not related to the blockade, but to Operation Cast Lead, we've been through this already.
[/QUOTE]
You seem to think that if it's something is brought up, it means 'we've been through it already'. No you haven't. You just stopped posting after you realized you were wrong. The resolution was not valid for that short time.
[QUOTE=Hoffa1337;23328005]What will prove that the IDF shot first then, Since you dismiss absolutely everything presented to you that doesn't come from Israeli authorities??[/QUOTE]
I don't know what you mean, I just told you how these videos can't prove anything anyway. What will we be able to see there, a ship about 200 meters away with someone shooting from it, possibly at the ship and possibly at the air?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23328015]I don't know about the videos anymore than I've already said in recent posts, but each country has the right to perform its own investigations on its own military incidents, this happens all the time and nobody says anything when another country does this, except when Israel is involved.[/QUOTE]
yeah, except when the other countries are involved it doesn't involve international controversy over ship hijacking in international waters over a blockade with dispute about its legality in the first place.
[QUOTE=starpluck;23328044]You seem to think that if it's something is brought up, it means 'we've been through it already'. No you haven't. You just stopped posting after you realized you were wrong. The resolution was not valid for that short time.[/QUOTE]
Actually, you (well maybe it was someone else, but not me) changed the topic to the list of contraband.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23328050]I don't know what you mean, I just told you how these videos can't prove anything anyway. What will we be able to see there, a ship about 200 meters away with someone shooting from it, possibly at the ship and possibly at the air?[/QUOTE]
Gun shots, and people dying before the commandos even came.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23328050]I don't know what you mean, I just told you how these videos can't prove anything anyway. What will we be able to see there, a ship about 200 meters away with someone shooting from it, possibly at the ship and possibly at the air?[/QUOTE]
shooting the air and shooting at a ship is rather distinguishable. either case it's not really warranted to fire warning shots 200 meters away.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23328050]I don't know what you mean, I just told you how these videos can't prove anything anyway. What will we be able to see there, a ship about 200 meters away with someone shooting from it, possibly at the ship and possibly at the air?[/QUOTE]
What piece of information will, in your eyes, suffice as evidence that the IDF did something bad? How can you possibly be this ignorant :confused:
[QUOTE=starpluck;23328078]Gun shots, and people dying before the commandos even came.[/QUOTE]
Proof?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23328067]Actually, you (well maybe it was someone else, but not me) changed the topic to the list of contraband.[/QUOTE]
I don't care if someone change what.
When it calls for unimpeded food, fuel etc. It means OPEN, CLEAR, NO RESTRICTIONS on the food coming in, or AN END to the blockade.
[editline]04:25PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23328122]Proof?[/QUOTE]
You asked how it will the videos helped, I answered?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23328122]Proof?[/QUOTE]
Do you have the memory of a goldfish?
[QUOTE=Hoffa1337;23328100]What piece of information will, in your eyes, suffice as evidence that the IDF did something bad? How can you possibly be this ignorant :confused:[/QUOTE]
Let's say for example that the troops rappelled down and shot the peace activists as they came out of the ship, it doesn't have to be in a good quality too, the black-and-white video's quality could be the same. For proof that the IDF shot from the boats first without rappelling down, I really don't know, I don't think video evidence from the Mavi Maramara can prove it, maybe videos of conversations of IDF officials about the procedures or something like that, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't recorded or filmed.
[editline]04:28PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Hoffa1337;23328143]Do you have the memory of a goldfish?[/QUOTE]
I don't know about you but I didn't see any people dying before the IDF landed.
An inquest into their own failings? That's the most ridiculous hearing ever, get a proper inquest into this.
Guys... Guys listen to me.
The TV's are reporting that israel sent another warship to tail a ship named "Libya" and they want Libya to change its cource until midnight.
What the fuck ?
[B]Edit
[/B]Fuck its real
Source : [URL]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10615479.stm[/URL]
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