65 years old knocked off his bicycle by three kids. Results? One dead, one wounded, one in jail
566 replies, posted
You guys just fail to understand people differ in opinion.
I say something else and you just go LOL SELF DEFENCE, then you complain "full circle" but I bet without even reading whatever objections anyone had to this shooting you'd just be like OH WE'RE WHERE WE STARTED AGAIN
[QUOTE=ridinmybike;38175256]could that old man not have just threatened them with the gun, or at least shoot them in the legs?[/QUOTE]
"hi I've NEVER SHOT A GUN IN MY LIFE but I'm totally qualified to criticize the tactical decisions of a man whose life depended on it"
[QUOTE=WhatAmI;38175005]I can't agree with this
The kids may not have been in the right but they didn't deserve to die.
Yet again, another day I'm glad I don't live in the US[/QUOTE]
you're right, the kid didn't deserve to die. nobody does, in my opinion. however, i feel it should have been an expected risk when they decided to attack someone.
do you seriously believe that when threatened, without knowing the intentions of those attacking you, that it is unreasonable to defend yourself with whatever means necessary you have available to you?
justice obviously wasn't served, but it was the available response that the man had (I don't mean killing someone, i meant the fact that he had a gun on his person). you can't blame the victim for defending himself. it's very unfortunate and a lose-lose situation, but how can you be so naive to think that in a world where people dehumanize, hurt and murder each other, we should not allow people to defend themselves? we do not live in a world where the ideal outcome can always happen. It's the sad truth, and I wish it wasn't this way. I wish we could un-invent the gun. I wish people could love each other and respect each other, regarding every human as their equal and working to ensure the betterment of everyone. However, this is not the case. The world is imperfect and people do terrible things. It is a shame that a teenager died, when this could have been the moment that turned his life around, making him a better person. He had so much to live for, and as a fellow human I am hurt and sad that his life went to waste, but it was his choice to go out and violently rob people. He is ultimately the one responsible for what happened to him, as he should have realized the risk involved, especially in a country where people can carry a concealed weapon. He was at an age where he should have been mature enough to realize it was a terrible choice to make.
tangentially, i find it very arrogant of you to say that you're glad you live outside the US because a kid died while attacking someone. a death due to self defence could happen just as easily in a country where [I]guns didn't exist[/I]. the human body can easily be fatally wounded, on accident, in the case of someone defending themselves. we are pretty fragile beings.
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;38175348]"hi I've NEVER SHOT A GUN IN MY LIFE but I'm totally qualified to criticize the tactical decisions of a man whose life depended on it"[/QUOTE]
He wasnt criticizing the guy, just asking a question, albeit one that has been answered countless times.
And to answer the question, his first thoughts wouldnt be "Aim steady while getting kicked", they would be "Survive".
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;38175360]you're right, the kid didn't deserve to die. nobody does, in my opinion. however, i feel it should have been an expected risk when they decided to attack someone.
do you seriously believe that when threatened, without knowing the intentions of those attacking you, that it is unreasonable to defend yourself with whatever means necessary you have available to you?
justice obviously wasn't served, but it was the available response that the man had (I don't mean killing someone, i meant the fact that he had a gun on his person). you can't blame the victim for defending himself. it's very unfortunate and a lose-lose situation, but how can you be so naive to think that in a world where people dehumanize, hurt and murder each other, we should not allow people to defend themselves? we do not live in a world where the ideal outcome can always happen. It's the sad truth, and I wish it wasn't this way. I wish we could un-invent the gun. I wish people could love each other and respect each other, regarding every human as their equal and working to ensure the betterment of everyone. However, this is not the case. The world is imperfect and people do terrible things. It is a shame that a teenager died, when this could have been the moment that turned his life around, making him a better person. He had so much to live for, and as a fellow human I am hurt and sad that his life went to waste, but it was his choice to go out and violently rob people. He is ultimately the one responsible for what happened to him, as he should have realized the risk involved, especially in a country where people can carry a concealed weapon. He was at an age where he should have been mature enough to realize it was a terrible choice to make.
tangentially, i find it very arrogant of you to say that you're glad you live outside the US because a kid died while attacking someone. a death due to self defence could happen just as easily in a country where [I]guns didn't exist[/I]. the human body can easily be fatally wounded, on accident, in the case of someone defending themselves. we are pretty fragile beings.[/QUOTE]
yes
[QUOTE=Keeshond v2;38172180]I just think that death like this is kind of a waste and that maybe, and I'm not saying force people to drop regular ammo but maybe more should be invested into the development of non lethal munitions or other non lethal personal defence weapons. Why do people seem so intent on killing, frankly after what I've seen in military hardware I'm quite sure it's possible to do better and find a middle ground. I'm not saying i'm a better person than anyone who genuinely fears for their life, but If I could choose, I would rather incapacitate than kill.[/QUOTE]
the money spent by tax-payers on developing better non-lethal munitions could probably be spent getting rid of the root causes of crime which i've mentioned the past few pages, such as education, financial inequality, job opportunity etc
Why are people calling them children? These aren't children, they are young men and are completely responsible for their own decisions and actions. If I was 16 and killed someone, I would be tried as an adult, and rightfully so.
I love the way people are saying the kids didnt deserve to die, as if he just lined them up agianst a wall, and executed them, without any danger to his own life. He was physically assaulted (Read the OP) by three teenagers (Who can easily kill a 65 year old, they arent 7 years old, they are almost adults), but he managed to pull his legally carried gun, and shot the attackers, as they charged at him. He didnt chase them down, or actively try to kill them. He tried to stop them from charging at him and killing him. The old man did not know if they were poor little kids with a horrible family and in dire need of cash and food, or if they were like those [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnepropetrovsk_maniacs]Three guys on hammer guys [/url], and wanted to torture and kill him. In a situation like that, he can't just assume they only want his wallet, and just take the beating, since those poor kids only want food. He was completely justified in shooting them, as he was on the ground, after being punched off his bike, and then kicked again on the ground. I am guessing if the people who assaulted him was 18, and the title didnt have kids in it, none of you would be here, as the poor little kids were as always innocent.
[QUOTE=WhatAmI;38175344]You guys just fail to understand people differ in opinion.
I say something else and you just go LOL SELF DEFENCE, then you complain "full circle" but I bet without even reading whatever objections anyone had to this shooting you'd just be like OH WE'RE WHERE WE STARTED AGAIN[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Apache249;38175189]They were in the process of beating the shit out of the man. Who would you rather see come out on top, the elderly man or the teens beating his ass?[/QUOTE]
[editline]25th October 2012[/editline]
There's a reason we're "complaining full circle." I bet you didn't even read the thread.
[QUOTE=WhatAmI;38175393]yes[/QUOTE]
i take the fact that you regard my attempt at a serious, meaningful discussion about this unworthy of an actual response as a huge insult.
so thanks for being a twat when, while i disagree with you, i was trying to understand your point of view. if you're not going to take this seriously, then why even post what you think?
[editline]25th October 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Bobie;38175430]the money spent by tax-payers on developing better non-lethal munitions could probably be spent getting rid of the root causes of crime which i've mentioned the past few pages, such as education, financial inequality, job opportunity etc[/QUOTE]
well i can agree with this, but it's not going to happen as nobody in power is actually interest in fixing these things. nobody gives two fucks about having an educated, passionate, and loving society, and it's incredibly sad when we could be so much better off.
[QUOTE=Apache249;38175474][editline]25th October 2012[/editline]
There's a reason we're "complaining full circle." I bet you didn't even read the thread.[/QUOTE]
Why would I read 11 pages of the same thing
Why is there even a debate on this case. The guy was pretty damn well justified. Of all the people who shoot at other people, this is probably one of the cases where there is the less things to complain about.
You know what is really worrying me in that whole story ? That three kids that were not even fucking out of school yet decided to rob and beat old people up. You guys should stop complaining about the old guy that defended himself and should start wondering why he had to defend himself with a handgun in the first place.
[QUOTE=WhatAmI;38175530]Why would I read 11 pages of the same thing[/QUOTE]Reading even one page would've sufficed.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;38175504]well i can agree with this, but it's not going to happen as nobody in power is actually interest in fixing these things. nobody gives two fucks about having an educated, passionate, and loving society, and it's incredibly sad when we could be so much better off.[/QUOTE]
We can't have a perfect loving society. Best we can do is try to educate the most people we can and punish the criminals who refuse to blend in. I agree that we still have a lot to improve but I don't think there will ever be a society without crime nor hate.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;38175572]Why is there even a debate on this case. The guy was pretty damn well justified. Of all the people who shoot at other people, this is probably one of the cases where there is the less things to complain about.
You know what is really worrying me in that whole story ? That three kids that were not even fucking out of school yet decided to rob and beat old people up. You guys should stop complaining about the old guy that defended himself and should start wondering why he had to defend himself with a handgun in the first place.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this so much. I think it's all about the education. I believe that if we can fix education, we will create a society that can do anything.
[editline]25th October 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;38175587]We can't have a perfect loving society. Best we can do is try to educate the most people we can and punish the criminals who refuse to blend in. I agree that we still have a lot to improve but I don't think there will ever be a society without crime nor hate.[/QUOTE]
I think it is possible to come pretty close, but it will never happen.
[QUOTE=FFStudios;38167981]the kids were 16, that's old enough to be tried as an adult. don't go around crying "wahhh think of the children, how could this happen to a child?" because it's not an innocent little 7 year old. it says very clearly in the story that he was knocked off and [B]then assaulted[/B]
it's not like he drew his gun because he fell over
edit: ahem, direct definition of assault[/QUOTE]
Assault in most places in the US is just causing the apprehension of attack, battery is the actual act of violence.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;38175591]I agree with this so much. I think it's all about the education. I believe that if we can fix education, we will create a society that can do anything.
[editline]25th October 2012[/editline]
I think it is possible to come pretty close, but it will never happen.[/QUOTE]
I think culture plays a good role into it. Teaching a thug to be smart can just make him a better thug, but to make a thug see different cultures and the different ways of life can help them empathize, and develop good natured morals.
[QUOTE=Tetsmega;38175730]I think culture plays a good role into it. Teaching a thug to be smart can just make him a better thug, but to make a thug see different cultures and the different ways of life can help them empathize, and develop good natured morals.[/QUOTE]
Well my ideas for education involve teaching kids from a young age to be open minded, curious, and highly logical people capable of good critical thinking.
obviously these are not original ideas by any means, but mainly because they are the obvious choices to make in correcting the course of society. young minds have an unfathomably incredible capacity to learn, and if we fill them with concepts like acceptance, respect for differences and love for all humankind while they are in this critical stage of development, i think we can come pretty close to making a society in which all people are truly good. sadly the people who seek power are almost never the people who want to help.
From the name I was assuming it was some stereotypical black "gangster" kid and his borderline retarded friends. However having watched the video of his family it does make me a bit sad that his life went the way it did, his family are actually fairly well spoken and the mother is unbelievably humble considering her son died. Saying things like "that may be true, but be considerate, that's all I'm saying" in response to people saying he deserved to die.
Honestly, to me it really highlights that issues like this are a cultural/social thing. I really can't help but feel had he been white he wouldn't be dead right now. Not because "hurr durr racist" but because had he been white he probably would have been treated differently, had different groups of friends and not gone in the direction of being some sort of wannabe "gangster".
for anyone interested in the news item.
[url]http://www.wfmz.com/news/news-regional-berks/Family-says-teen-didn-t-have-to-die/-/121418/8563524/-/fnovxyz/-/index.html[/url]
[QUOTE=Stronts;38175876]From the name I was assuming it was some stereotypical black "gangster" kid and his borderline retarded friends. However having watched the video of his family it does make me a bit sad that his life went the way it did, his family are actually fairly well spoken and the mother is unbelievably humble considering her son died. Saying things like "that may be true, but be considerate, that's all I'm saying" in response to people saying he deserved to die.
Honestly, to me it really highlights that issues like this are a cultural/social thing. I really can't help but feel had he been white he wouldn't be dead right now. Not because "hurr durr racist" but because had he been white he probably would have been treated differently, had different groups of friends and not gone in the direction of being some sort of wannabe "gangster".
for anyone interested in the news item.
[url]http://www.wfmz.com/news/news-regional-berks/Family-says-teen-didn-t-have-to-die/-/121418/8563524/-/fnovxyz/-/index.html[/url][/QUOTE]
it really depresses me that nobody wants to help the black community. i once literally had someone say to me that the world would be better off if we could remove all black people. the only reason these stereotypes exist is because racist people forced them into poverty that persists today. it boggles my mind that nobody seems to realize that the only reason crime, less education and all of these other problems are so much higher among black people is because white people back in the day set them up for failure.
[QUOTE=ridinmybike;38175256]could that old man not have just threatened them with the gun, or at least shoot them in the legs?[/QUOTE]
This isn't a videogame, shooting someone in the legs can be just as deadly as shooting them in the chest, due to the giant ass veins that are in the legs you'd bleed out really fucking fast.
[editline]25th October 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Bobie;38171843]because their effectiveness for self defence is questionable[/QUOTE]
And so is their non lethality, if you pull out a gun, always shoot to kill, or you risk a way more painful death on the person you're shooting, and the least you can do is do it somewhat fast instead of having them bleed out while waiting for an ambulance.
[editline]25th October 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Keeshond v2;38171886]It is only my personal opinion, but I believe real bullets are too.
Unpopular opinions.[/QUOTE]
Just a little tip, there is no such thing as non-lethal munitions, there's only less-lethal.
Why do people even care about the teenagers lives that much, they were mugging old people thats a fucking low and cowardly act. They deserve no sympathy.
[editline]25th October 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Stronts;38175876]From the name I was assuming it was some stereotypical black "gangster" kid and his borderline retarded friends. However having watched the video of his family it does make me a bit sad that his life went the way it did, his family are actually fairly well spoken and the mother is unbelievably humble considering her son died. Saying things like "that may be true, but be considerate, that's all I'm saying" in response to people saying he deserved to die.
Honestly, to me it really highlights that issues like this are a cultural/social thing. I really can't help but feel had he been white he wouldn't be dead right now. Not because "hurr durr racist" but because had he been white he probably would have been treated differently, had different groups of friends and not gone in the direction of being some sort of wannabe "gangster".
for anyone interested in the news item.
[url]http://www.wfmz.com/news/news-regional-berks/Family-says-teen-didn-t-have-to-die/-/121418/8563524/-/fnovxyz/-/index.html[/url][/QUOTE]
You are basically saying if he had a completely different life he would not be in this situation.
No shit.
You have to be a fucked up 15 year old to go around beating people for shit and giggles.
All my respect goes to the old man. [i]Mors tua Vita mea[/i], afterall.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;38175591]I agree with this so much. I think it's all about the education. I believe that if we can fix education, we will create a society that can do anything.
[editline]25th October 2012[/editline]
I think it is possible to come pretty close, but it will never happen.[/QUOTE]
There's two things intelligent people seem to have more than others. Respect, and deadly diseases.
Hopefully the world will be way more respectful by the end of the century.
[QUOTE=WhatAmI;38175169]Stop being so righteous
everyone makes mistakes, people don't deserve to get killed for them. You're ignorant and stupid if you believe it's justified to shoot kids just because they made a horrible mistake. They might've learned
Have some respect.[/QUOTE]
well considering 1 dead 1 shot 1 in jail I'd say they'll learn
not everyone learns from mistakes either. Some "MISTAKES" are not acceptable to forgive unless said person has drastic life changes.
at the same time, they deserved to at least have had two on the three injured minorly with a scar, with possible jail. That's kind of a big "mistake" to forgive.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;38177175]There's two things intelligent people seem to have more than others. Respect, and deadly diseases.
Hopefully the world will be way more respectful by the end of the century.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't count on it...
There's always gonna be people like the ones who attacked this old man, even though it's 2012 that's no reason to think we're any more advanced than people who lived in the last century or even the last millennium.
Sorry, but I just don't see anything 'Winner' about a bloke shooting 3 kids over his pocket change.
I know, it's quite a dick move to rob the elderly but to downright murder them on the spot is a bit worrying. Sure, under bad surcumstances he might have fallen and broken his neck, they might have kicked him to death in a 5-minute elderly beating, but the degree of self defense should always be justified. I recently underwent the German gun ownership exam and self defense is very strictly limited, murder being only justified if you're for example about to be stabbed with the murderer having his weapon out and about to attack.
As long as you realistically have the time, you are forced to threaten the aggressor or at the very least take the time not to aim for their vitals. Kneecap the motherfuckers, let them see how they rob people with a limp for the rest of their lives. A warning shot alone might have been enough to scare them off, but if you shoot all three attackers, he simply must have fired at them while they fled and that's fucking mental. These teens didn't do anything anyone should ever deserve to die for. Robbing people of their change is low, but they never mortally wounded anyone or attacked them with weapons. They were just being dicks.
In my opinion, if you just whip out a piece and cap people in the head with any vague idea of a threat, that's the definition of vigilantism, not self-defense and vigilantism is fucking wrong.
[QUOTE=H4ngman;38177304]Sorry, but I just don't see anything 'Winner' about a bloke shooting 3 kids over his pocket change.
I know, it's quite a dick move to rob the elderly but to downright murder them on the spot is a bit worrying. Self defense should always be justified. I recently underwent the German gun ownership exam and self defense is very strictly limited, murder being only justified if you're for example about to be stabbed with the murderer having his weapon out and about to attack.
As long as you realistically have the time, you are forced to threaten the aggressor or at least take the time not to aim for their vitals.
Because, if you just whip out a piece and cap people in the head with any vague idea of a threat, that's the definition of vigilantism, not self-defense.[/QUOTE]
Because you were there
right
"downright murder"
did you read the article? he genuinely felt threatened
"When your life is in danger, you have no choice but to use deadly force," he said. / "While I don't condone violence, the bike rider had no choice," Adams said. "It was justifiable homicide." /
"The teens, age 16 and 15, and another 15-year-old boy skipped school Wednesday and robbed two pedestrians in West Reading before they [B]attacked [/B]the man as he rode on the Thun Trail in Cumru Township at 11 a.m., police said."
and you DO realize that 16 year olds easily will look not like a kid? right?
also
[b]The bike rider was on the trail between Reading and West Reading.
As he rode past the teens, the 15-year-old whose name was not released punched the man in the face, knocking him from his bike. Johnson ran and kicked the man, who was sitting against a chain-link fence along the trail.
As one of the teens ran toward the man, he shot Johnson and the 15-year-old.
People who found the man called 9-1-1 and waited for police to arrive. It was unclear if the people heard the shots or were on the trail.
The teens weren't armed, but the shootings were legal because the man was unable to escape, thought his life was in danger and had a permit to carry his gun, Adams said.
The man told investigators: "I was scared for my life. I was in big trouble. If I could have kept my bike on the trail, I would have gotten out of there."[/b]
Realistically, how do you make a split decision and not aim for vitals? especially when
[thumb]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Arterial_System_en.svg/250px-Arterial_System_en.svg.png[/thumb]
everywhere could be one :v:, and there's no time to do it. Unless you're super human with a gun.
[QUOTE=J!NX;38177372]
did you read the article? he genuinely felt threatened
"When your life is in danger, you have no choice but to use deadly force," he said. / "While I don't condone violence, the bike rider had no choice," Adams said. "It was justifiable homicide." /
[/QUOTE]
That's exactly the point. He [I]felt[/I] threatened. That was just his personal, subjective view of the situation, it has no legal basis. people feel threatened over a lot of things, does that mean they can kill whoever they feel like?
What is a threat and what not should be clearly defined by law and not left to people's personal opinions. I feel threatened by people following me at night in a park. I feel threatened by strangers creeping around my door at night. Do you support my right to just fucking kill everyone of those people? because that is exactly what you imply. Hell, my 60-year old aunt feels threatened by just about anyone, I sure as hell won't give her a gun and tell her to just kill everyone that bothers her.
I know, this was a specific case where under specific circumstances (they assaulted him with a deadly weapon, threatened his life), that were not even met, the killing would have been justified, but you people fail to see the full extend of supporting vigilantism.
Fact is, there were no weapons, he got beaten, that's scary, that's threatening. Did he give off a warning shot? No, he just shot the fucker in the chest and killed him. Did he leave it at that? No, he proceeded to try and kill everyone in his proximity. Tell, me what you will that is not self-defense, that is completely stepping over the boundaries of defending your personal goods and health
[QUOTE=H4ngman;38177468]That's exactly the point. He [I]felt[/I] threatened. That was just his personal, subjective view of the situation, it has no legal basis. people feel threatened over a lot of things, does that mean they can kill whoever they feel like?
What is a threat and what not should be clearly defined by law and not left to people's personal opinions. I feel threatened by people following me at night in a park. I feel threatened by strangers creeping around my door at night. Do you support my right to just fucking kill everyone of those people? because that is exactly what you imply. Hell, my 60-year old aunt feels threatened by just about anyone, I sure as hell won't give her a gun and tell her to just kill everyone that bothers her.
I know, this was a specific case where under specific circumstances (they assaulted him with a deadly weapon, threatened his life), that were not even met, the killing would have been justified, but you people fail to see the full extend of supporting vigilantism.
Fact is, there were no weapons, he got beaten, that's scary, that's threatening. Did he give off a warning shot? No, he just shot the fucker in the chest and killed him. Did he leave it at that? No, he proceeded to try and kill everyone in his proximity. Tell, me what you will that is not self-defense, that is completely stepping over the boundaries of defending your personal goods and health[/QUOTE]
Its easy to make comments about a situation when it is all over and done but you cant really say what even you would do when you have just been punched off your bike, kicked and with someone coming at you, with only a couple of seconds at most to react and your adrenaline pumping (Which has also been shown to cause what you might describe as temporary autism) Also you don't know if any of the people attacking you are armed, you don't know if they do intend to kill you or seriously harm you.
What constitutes 'threatened' is subjective, but that does not mean you could just kill anyone and say that you felt threatened and get away with it in court. They deemed that his actions were within the law taking into account the situation that he was placed in.
Yes, it is sad that a teenager had to die, but that does not mean the shooting wasn't justified. Those kids knew exactly what they were doing, and they drew the short straw in this situation.
[B]What would your opinion be if the guy didnt have a gun and you were reading a story about how 3 mid teens beat a 65 year old to death over his wallet?[/B]
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