US: Russia should face more consequences over invasion of country
74 replies, posted
[QUOTE=cody8295;47182504]but a lot of people do, and patriotism can become very dangerous, his post may be unrelated but it does get some point across[/QUOTE]
A point that everyone already knows and is entirely irrelevant. Should we also point out how Germany and France did shitty stuff in their history when they go after Russia?
[QUOTE=Raidyr;47182524]A point that everyone already knows and is entirely irrelevant. Should we also point out how Germany and France did shitty stuff in their history when they go after Russia?[/QUOTE]
I've not met many German or French people but I would guess that not nearly as many are so easily fooled into believing their country is innately and explicitly the "good guy". Nevertheless, I'm sure there are patriots over there, and now I seem to just be rambling so I'll stop here.
[QUOTE=cody8295;47182504]but a lot of people do, and patriotism can become very dangerous, his post may be unrelated but it does get some point across[/QUOTE]
A lot of people do, but they exist in both the U.S. and Russia, and every other country as well: For instance, many Japanese people still try to ignore or otherwise pretend all of their atrocities in WWII didn't occur or were somehow justifiable, despite the number of horrific war crimes carried out by their military during that war, Nanking in particular. And just as many Americans will sweep our cold-war era dictators we appointed and kept in power and wars we partook in as well. There are many Russians who will similarly whitewash and try to justify Russia's actions as well, in particular Putin's recent aggression. Every single country has that uneducated(Or at least uneducated on foreign affairs) and dangerously nationalistic portion of the population, so it's sort of a moot point.
If not to convince a few more uneducated people reading his post, I haven't a clue what he posted for. But that's a good enough reason to post IMO.
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;47181730]The best part is the fact that US even dares of complaining about other countries invading anyone. The only difference is that US tries to whitewash their invasions and rename them into interventions or attack other nations from the inside/with proxies.
Lmao, and shit America did, does and will do doesn't? Or is it ok only when it benefits the US? Remember that the actions of US (namely not having enough people down to protect private estates of businessmen and thus arming local radical and extremist imams) are indirectly responsible for the creation of ISIS and the strength it has today.
Literally every single dumb rating is from American :''')[/QUOTE]
As others have already thoroughly demonstrated, the two situations are not at all comparable. We didn't invade Iraq on the Hitleresque pretense of protecting poor, oppressed American minorities and then annex a large chunk of it after manufacturing a dubious referendum with no international oversight to make it look legitimate, and our invasion of Afghanistan was completely justified since you know it was run by the Taliban.
Also, I like how you brought up the 1953 coup of Mossadegh in Iran and conveniently like a bunch of other retards do blame it on us-- when MI6 was behind it as well and the whole thing began when the United Kingdom couldn't get them to play their way with petroleum and ignore the actions of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. Truman didn't consent to it when he was approached; one of Eisenhower's big motivators involved wanting to be a good and dependable ally to the United Kingdom.
You're just mad at us for bombing the shit out of you during the Kosovo War, aren't you, Serb.
The train has completely derailed it seems.
Let's stop talking about how bad America is for a moment, and instead focus on what we can realistically do to punish The Russian Federation, that won't start a war.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;47181353]Or what?[/QUOTE]
more posturing and saber rattling. :v:
[QUOTE=Govna;47182628]As others have already thoroughly demonstrated, the two situations are not at all comparable. We didn't invade Iraq on the Hitleresque pretense of protecting poor, oppressed American minorities and then annex a large chunk of it after manufacturing a dubious referendum with no international oversight to make it look legitimate, and our invasion of Afghanistan was completely justified since you know it was run by the Taliban.
Also, I like how you brought up the 1953 coup of Mossadegh in Iran and conveniently like a bunch of other retards do blame it on us-- when MI6 was behind it as well and the whole thing began when the United Kingdom couldn't get them to play their way with petroleum and ignore the actions of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. Truman didn't consent to it when he was approached; one of Eisenhower's big motivators involved wanting to be a good and dependable ally to the United Kingdom.
[B]You're just mad at us for bombing the shit out of you during the Kosovo War, aren't you, Serb[/B].[/QUOTE]
that's some low effort shitposting.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;47182637]The train has completely derailed it seems.
Let's stop talking about how bad America is for a moment, and instead focus on what we can realistically do to punish The Russian Federation, that won't start a war.[/QUOTE]
Start immediately supplying Ukraine and other eastern European nations under threat of Russian incursion with weapons and intelligence. Make it expensive for Putin to maintain his war.
[editline]20th February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;47182650]
that's some low effort shitposting.[/QUOTE]
An unnecessary snipe at the end of a comprehensively good post.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;47182652]Start immediately supplying Ukraine and other eastern European nations under threat of Russian incursion with weapons and intelligence. Make it expensive for Putin to maintain his war.
[/QUOTE]
But where else can Putin get money?
He has friends in Arabia and China right?
[QUOTE=Raidyr;47182652]Start immediately supplying Ukraine and other eastern European nations under threat of Russian incursion with weapons and intelligence. Make it expensive for Putin to maintain his war.[/QUOTE]
that's a bad idea that might result in the situation escalating, do you even realize how dangerous is to try and force a nuclear power like russia into a corner, especially since, in russia's eye THEY ARE protecting their interests? its like everyone forgot how this started, it doesn't matter if its true or not, they believe it, and they got nukes, and their actions so far made it very clear they're serious about this.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;47182652]
An unnecessary snipe at the end of a comprehensively good post.[/QUOTE]
not really.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;47182650]that's some low effort shitposting.[/QUOTE]
No it isn't. I'm wagering a guess at why he's so mad and accusatory against us Americans.
He's a Serb apparently, lots of Serbs like Russia and hate the United States for our bombings during the Kosovo War.
Bringing up shit which has no relevance to the issue at hand, which is what he did in the first place, is something he should be called out for-- especially on a personal level.
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;47182230]The only difference between US and Russia is that US infests the states with it's puppets and manipulate them in that way while Russia goes for direct approach.
Oh you mean US is actually not denying shit it does aka funding monster dictators in Latin America for example?
Or how about US effectively screwing over Iranian people for at the very least 25 years: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état[/url], [url]http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/cia-assisted-coup-overthrows-government-of-iran[/url] ?
Or here actually, take a look yourself: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_authoritarian_regimes_supported_by_the_United_States[/url]
It's unreal how much you people are seriously convinced that America = good and Russia = bad and how hard you will try to whitewash America with your own whataboutism while you complain about whataboutism used on the other side.[/QUOTE]
Almost any country that regularly exercises its military might misuses it in some way or another. Serbia would be in the same boat as Russia or the US if they had the same power.
People are greedy and they need other greedy people to keep them in check.
[QUOTE=Govna;47182687]No it isn't. I'm wagering a guess at why he's so mad and accusatory against us Americans.
He's a Serb apparently, lots of Serbs like Russia and hate the United States for our bombings during the Kosovo War.
Bringing up shit which has no relevance to the issue at hand, which is what he did in the first place, is something he should be called out for-- especially on a personal level.[/QUOTE]
Ever hear of a thing called generalization? You're doing it, badly.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;47182681]that's a bad idea that might result in the situation escalating, do you even realize how dangerous is to try and force a nuclear power like russia into a corner, especially since, in russia's eye THEY ARE protecting their interests? its like everyone forgot how this started, it doesn't matter if its true or not, they believe it, and they got nukes, and their actions so far made it very clear they're serious about this.
[/QUOTE]
But all of that is counter balanced by the giant heavy lead cube above Putin's head that is "Mutually Assured Destruction". It would be a damning decision for any nuclear nation to launch a missile simply to "protect their interests".
In my mind, the only way Russia would consider launching a nuke, was if World War III did start, and the United Nations (I'm gonna call them the Allies), were closing in on Moscow itself, Putin had not much left to mount a proper defense with, and he's about to be captured. Then I can see him launching his Nukes as a final fuck you to the Western powers.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;47182681]that's a bad idea that might result in the situation escalating, do you even realize how dangerous is to try and force a nuclear power like russia into a corner, especially since, in russia's eye THEY ARE protecting their interests? its like everyone forgot how this started, it doesn't matter if its true or not, they believe it, and they got nukes, and their actions so far made it very clear they're serious about this.
not really.[/QUOTE]
Everyone that brings up nukes at this point ought to be banned.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;47182745]Everyone that brings up nukes at this point ought to be banned.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure about that, I think the fact that Russia, despite now having a sanctioned to shit economy, an asshole dictator running it to the ground, and generally sounding like a miserable place to be, Russia is still a nuclear power, and we must keep that especially in consideration when politically dealing with Putin. It simply cannot be ignored.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;47182721]Ever hear of a thing called generalization? You're doing it, badly.[/QUOTE]
Not really. There are a lot of Serbs who are still angry over the March 1999 bombing campaign we/NATO launched. Maybe that's his reason, maybe it isn't. Don't know. He'll have to be the one to clarify that.
I mean of course no one is gonna start the third World War over Russia being sensitive about anything, but the Russian nukes are still gonna be the elephant in the room.
[editline]20th February 2015[/editline]
broken posts
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;47181643]Shit happens. Using drones would ultimately destroy the Russian army's armored forces in Ukraine.[/QUOTE]
No... No they would not.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;47181829]whataboutism should be bannable[/QUOTE]
Calm down Big Brother
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;47182230]The only difference between US and Russia is that US infests the states with it's puppets and manipulate them in that way while Russia goes for direct approach.
Oh you mean US is actually not denying shit it does aka funding monster dictators in Latin America for example?
Or how about US effectively screwing over Iranian people for at the very least 25 years: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état[/url], [url]http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/cia-assisted-coup-overthrows-government-of-iran[/url] ?
Or here actually, take a look yourself: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_authoritarian_regimes_supported_by_the_United_States[/url]
It's unreal how much you people are seriously convinced that America = good and Russia = bad and how hard you will try to whitewash America with your own whataboutism while you complain about whataboutism used on the other side.[/QUOTE]
And the Karimatrix award goes to.....
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;47181730]The best part is the fact that US even dares of complaining about other countries invading anyone. The only difference is that US tries to whitewash their invasions and rename them into interventions or attack other nations from the inside/with proxies.
Lmao, and shit America did, does and will do doesn't? Or is it ok only when it benefits the US? Remember that the actions of US (namely not having enough people down to protect private estates of businessmen and thus arming local radical and extremist imams) are indirectly responsible for the creation of ISIS and the strength it has today.[/QUOTE]
You realize Russia has also opposed things about every other country that they've done themselves before right?
Both American and Russian dilemmas have been acknowledged and heavily criticized before but for some reason this whataboutism is only brought up when Russia is in the line of sight which is extremely pathetic and has nothing of value.
[QUOTE]Literally every single dumb rating is from American :''')[/QUOTE]
I'm assuming you have a "Us vs Them" mentality and as someone that literally lives inbetween both countries, both governments are full of shit which is no different from every other government from other countries, including mine.
[editline]21st February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE]The only difference is that US tries to whitewash their invasions and rename them into interventions or attack other nations from the inside/with proxies.[/QUOTE]
Russia justified the Crimean Occupation as the protection of ethnic russians and said the new Ukrainian government is filled with nazis as a justification to supporting the rebels
lmao are you serious?
"The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents. The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine as well as those of Belarus and Kazakhstan."
So much for that 1994 Budapest memorandum.
[QUOTE=isreal?;47181734]What if they shoot them all down? Mr armchair general. Drones don't tend to have good countermeasures to S-400's and other state of the art anti-aircraft systems, from what I've read. Don't even feel like bringing up fighter jet solution.[/QUOTE]
Shooting down drones with S-400's is like smashing a mouse with a huge concrete block. Manpads and light AA vehicles are more than enough.
Our government should, yeah please. Us, fuck off.
[QUOTE=Govna;47182687]No it isn't. I'm wagering a guess at why he's so mad and accusatory against us Americans.
He's a Serb apparently, lots of Serbs like Russia and hate the United States for our bombings during the Kosovo War.
Bringing up shit which has no relevance to the issue at hand, which is what he did in the first place, is something he should be called out for-- especially on a personal level.[/QUOTE]
So you respond to his awkward callout that he didn't think the whole way through by a case-by-case approach, which is good.
Then you go ahead and make fun of his country because it was bombed by the US. Now I'm not saying you're full of shit but that's a pretty "I'm full of shit" thing to say, don't you think?
It is also easy to understand why people would be fed up with the US' political meddling. Their agencies spy on everyone in a much more open manner than other agencies, and while Russia's intents are often more questionable than the US, I think intent is a pretty irrelevant factor when depriving entire regions of their sovereignity
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;47183301]You realize Russia has also opposed things about every other country that they've done themselves before right?
Both American and Russian dilemmas have been acknowledged and heavily criticized before but for some reason this whataboutism is only brought up when Russia is in the line of sight which is extremely pathetic and has nothing of value.
I'm assuming you have a "Us vs Them" mentality and as someone that literally lives inbetween both countries, both governments are full of shit which is no different from every other government from other countries, including mine.
[editline]21st February 2015[/editline]
Russia justified the Crimean Occupation as the protection of ethnic russians and said the new Ukrainian government is filled with nazis as a justification to supporting the rebels
lmao are you serious?[/QUOTE]
Devils advocate here but that's just plain bullshit and you know it. I've seen American criticism neutered with whataboutism. How about you simply learn to debate?
[QUOTE=Govna;47182628]
You're just mad at us for bombing the shit out of you during the Kosovo War, aren't you, Serb.[/QUOTE]
"haha kosovo rekt via illegal carpet bombing gg lmao stay mad kiddo"
i'm glad those kind of borderline xenophobic conversational quips are welcomed and cheered on in this good subforum
[QUOTE=isreal?;47181622]What if they shoot them down? This is Russia we are talking about not Iran. Russia produces the best antiaircraft missiles in the world.[/QUOTE]
Russia supplied them with AA missiles for fighters, drones are much smaller.
At any rate that's the point, send a drone in let them waste their missiles or if they don't shoot it down use your missiles. We haven't used drones in warfare like this yet but if we do get involved somehow this would probably be an easy step to make
[QUOTE=Maegord;47182471]America isn't a benevolent country incapable of doing wrong, but that doesn't somehow justify Russia doing the exact same thing. The problem is you're deflecting legitimate criticism against Russia by bringing up terrible things that the U.S. has done as well--I won't dispute that the U.S. has done many terrible things, but that doesn't justify Russia being similarly awful as well, and nor would Russia doing bad justify the U.S. in doing so, it just means they've both done wrong.[/QUOTE]
Yup, it's simply how the world works. Everyone looks at their own interests, it's just that circlejerk and bandwagoning on this forum (or at least this section of the forum) is inhumanely unreal and if you actually took a step or two back you'd realize just how much propaganda is thrown around here and how much bias there is while people act all knowing (and usually holier-than-thou stance happens if you say even a tiny bit controversial thing or thing that doesn't fit the bandwagon).
Russia is bad to some countries because it serves it's own interest just like US is hated by a significant part of the world but that's just the reaction of US working in its own interest. I never claimed Russia did no wrong, I'm just alluding to the clear narrow minded anti-east stance this forum has while it constantly likes to claim how it's open minded and tolerant of everyone (only to withdraw to "FP is not a mindhive" card when you try to say anything).
[QUOTE=Govna;47182628]As others have already thoroughly demonstrated, the two situations are not at all comparable. We didn't invade Iraq on the Hitleresque pretense of protecting poor, oppressed American minorities and then annex a large chunk of it after manufacturing a dubious referendum with no international oversight to make it look legitimate [/quote]
Holy fuck how delusional are you rofl. Then why did the US invade Iraq? Oh wait, it was about claimed WMDs which were proven to be fabricated: [url]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/feb/15/defector-admits-wmd-lies-iraq-war[/url]
The common misconception that when people say that "the US is in the Middle East for oil" they're arguing that "the US is in the Middle East to pursue some colonial agenda to extract and control oil so it can be funneled back to the US so its citizens can have cheap gasoline". This is absurd and anybody who argues this is an idiot. When people talk about 'the US being in the Middle East for oil' they're usually talking about the petrodollar. They're talking about the US maintaining demand for the dollar on a global scale by ensuring that the majority of oil producing countries only accept dollars for oil on global markets; enabling the dollar to keep its position as the global reserve currency. Saddam threatened that. Iran threaten(ed/s) that. For slightly more information see Robert Newman's comedy A History of Oil.
[quote]and our invasion of Afghanistan was completely justified since you know it was run by the Taliban.[/quote]
Right, not like after being almost completely eradicated the opium production was saved thanks to US. :')
[img_thumb]http://isisiraq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/afghanistan-opium-production.jpg[/img_thumb]
90% of the "job" of American soldiers in the ME was to protect private interests.
[quote]Also, I like how you brought up the 1953 coup of Mossadegh in Iran and conveniently like a bunch of other retards do blame it on us-- when MI6 was behind it as well and the whole thing began when the United Kingdom couldn't get them to play their way with petroleum and ignore the actions of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. Truman didn't consent to it when he was approached; one of Eisenhower's big motivators involved wanting to be a good and dependable ally to the United Kingdom.
[/QUOTE]
[quote=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état]After the coup, the Shah ruled as an absolute monarch for the next 26 years while modernizing the country using oil revenues, until he was overthrown in the Iranian Revolution in 1979. The tangible benefits the United States reaped from overthrowing Iran's elected government included a share of Iran's oil wealth and ensuring the Iranian nation remained under the control of an allied dictator. [/quote]
Ayyy lmao? Or should I paraphrase it to something like "The British actions can be and were terrible but that doesn't excuse the US for doing it."?
[quote]
You're just mad at us for bombing the shit out of you during the Kosovo War, aren't you, Serb.[/quote]
I don't even know what to say about this bigotry and xenophobia, but it's quite messed up and even worse is how there are some people here that will actually defend it.
[B]Note:[/B] I'm aware that this is drifting off topic, so if you want to argue make a thread in mass debate. I won't respond after this post so drama wouldn't spread.
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