13-Year-Old Girl Dies By Suicide After Dad Shares Public Shaming Video
255 replies, posted
Does anyone have that video of the black dad and his son who looks like he's going to do a shaming video but then explains how if you've gotten to the point of making a shaming video you've failed as a parent? Can't find it. It may have been posted ITT but it's a really good point.
[editline]6th June 2015[/editline]
[video=youtube;Gv7vPOHhpxM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv7vPOHhpxM[/video]
wow it was in the related videos
[QUOTE=catbarf;47894959]I don't agree with the public shaming, but the idea that a child has sovereign rights over their physical appearance is ridiculous. If a kid comes home with a mohawk and a nose ring because all the cool kids are doing it it's not [i]abuse[/i] for a parent to intervene.[/QUOTE]
So my parents abused me by not forcing me to take out my nose and lip ring despite the fact I've never struggled to employed WITH those in my face?
How the fuck was I abused
snip
[QUOTE=butre;47893991]"grown child"
hair grows back. Whether you think so or not, and whether she thinks so or not, losing some hair isn't a big deal.[/QUOTE]
It's hard to tell how long her hair was, but it looks like her hair was fairly long. Hair grows about 1/2" a month, and you should get it trimmed 2-3 times a year when growing it, so by the time she grew it back she could have been 15 or 16 depending on her birthday.. and seeing how shitty teen girls treat eachother over hair she was probably afraid she'd get bullied.
[QUOTE=CrimsonChin;47895874]It's hard to tell but it looks like her hair was fairly long and hair grows 1/2" a month and you should get it trimmed 2-3 times a year when growing so by the time she grew it back she would have been 15 or 16 depending on her birthday.. and seeing how shitty teen girls treat eachother over hair she was probably afraid she'd get bullied bad.[/QUOTE]
How come there have never been any major campaigns about getting girls to stop talking shit about eachother?
[QUOTE=Hiruty;47893995]Okay, I'll cut your hair off and you can jump off a bridge, seems rationale to me. I myself would be responsible to your death. That seems perfectly fine, like there is literally nothing else happening in your life. No, there is more to this story we DO NOT KNOW. To blame a daughters death over something like that is fucking crazy.[/QUOTE]
No its not, her parent, someone in her life who is supposed to teach and nurture her and be there for her when she fucks up decided that instead of talking with her about the error of her ways he would instead cut off her hair and publicly shame her.
I don't know about you, but if my dad did that to me on top of me being bullied by the other kids at my school, id probably come down with some deep depression and feelings of hopelessness and betrayal at the very least. Not to mention he did this to a teenage girl, who is most likely going through puberty, a time where her emotions are bouncing up and down off the walls.
Her dad was in the wrong, and almost certainly contributed to her depression+suicide.
If you think altering your child's appearance in a way that embarasses them is a valid punishment then you're an idiot who should never have had a child
[QUOTE=EnlightenDead;47896029]No its not, her parent, someone in her life who is supposed to teach and nurture her and be there for her when she fucks up [B]decided that instead of talking with her about the error of her ways[/B] he would instead cut off her hair and publicly shame her.
[/quote]
How do you know this? How do you know he hasn't tried talking with her in the past?
This is no different from those "police brutality" videos that strip out important context by starting 20 minutes into the event right when the police are "doing some wrong".
We, the general public, do not have all of the information yet so many seem to jump to the conclusion that this man must just be a horrible Father who did this purely to hurt his daughter. That is a possibility without a doubt, but to say it's the only possibility based off of this one event is jumping to a conclusion from my point of view.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47896297]How do you know this? How do you know he hasn't tried talking with her in the past?
This is no different from those "police brutality" videos that strip out important context by starting 20 minutes into the event right when the police are "doing some wrong".
We, the general public, do not have all of the information yet so many seem to jump to the conclusion that this man must just be a horrible Father who did this purely to hurt his daughter. That is a possibility without a doubt, but to say it's the only possibility based off of this one event is jumping to a conclusion from my point of view.[/QUOTE]
No
It doesn't matter
Publicly shaming your child is bad parenting.
I don't care what you say, how you try to define context or defend it so that these seem like reasonable actions
They are not.
Publicly shaming your child, with the possibility for literally the whole internet enabled world to view it, is wrong and if you don't see that now, you probably can't see it at all.
A child is not a mature being, they do not have a developed brain, and they do not have complex risk reward understanding(It's proven that they just don't usually.), they don't have the maturity or life experience to be publicaly shamed and to deal with that well. They also exist in high school, and I don't know about you, but I know for a fact girls have it rougher than boys do in high school.
Girls make shit very hard for themselves and each other in high school. It's not even like that's an anecdote. That's just true across pretty much every school in the US or Canada.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47896327]No
It doesn't matter
Publicly shaming your child is bad parenting.
I don't care what you say, how you try to define context or defend it so that these seem like reasonable actions
They are not.
Publicly shaming your child, with the possibility for literally the whole internet enabled world to view it, is wrong and if you don't see that now, you probably can't see it at all.
A child is not a mature being, they do not have a developed brain, and they do not have complex risk reward understanding(It's proven that they just don't usually.), they don't have the maturity or life experience to be publicaly shamed and to deal with that well. They also exist in high school, and I don't know about you, but I know for a fact girls have it rougher than boys do in high school.
Girls make shit very hard for themselves and each other in high school. It's not even like that's an anecdote. That's just true across pretty much every school in the US or Canada.[/QUOTE]
I haven't seen the video, but there was a girl who decided to talk shit about her father and how he forces her to clean when they have a maid, and that she deserves to be paid on top of all of the gadgets, and tuition, and all kinds of extra stuff that her father does for her.
He took that laptop he just bought for her outside, made his own response that talked about how he had to work for everything he got and how she was being a major bitch, and shot that laptop with a shotgun.
If you want to complain that what he did was abusive, you need to look at the big picture: Calling people out in public only asks for a response that is done within the public: i.e if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
And, again, like I said before, shame is an extremely powerful tool. If I can be ashamed for my actions, then I won't do them. Say I stole a candy bar from a store, and my father and the store collaborated on making me stay outside that store with a sign that says, "I stole candy from this store", that can have the positive effect of making me realize that my actions are a representation of me, and that I shouldn't do things that I wouldn't own up to in front of my parents, or a stranger, or the store, or anyone.
Of course, it also comes down to the severity of the shame. I'm not necessarily down with how these people have been quick to upload videos to YouTube, because often times it seems like they're asking everyone to harass their child. That's idiotic. However, I'm not going to be so quick to say, "Don't record your children", because it all falls down to how your presentation causes a response in your viewers. If you can act mature in the video and not like a snarky megadouche whose purpose is to make fun of a kid, I think it could work.
If you think punishing your child in this manner in a public sphere is the same as putting a sign around a kid who stole a candy bars neck, then you're just wrong.
Shame is fine. Shame for EVERYONE to see that doesn't really go away in todays facebook obssessed teenage world?
I mean I get it, but times have fucking changed and getting your childs idiotic fail onto AFHV is NOT the same as intentionally uploading your child being shamed purposefully for their actions when they're not even emotionally mature enough to handle it.
No. I'm sorry, but no.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47896471]If you think punishing your child in this manner in a public sphere is the same as putting a sign around a kid who stole a candy bars neck, then you're just wrong.
Shame is fine. Shame for EVERYONE to see that doesn't really go away in todays facebook obssessed teenage world?
I mean I get it, but times have fucking changed and getting your childs idiotic fail onto AFHV is NOT the same as intentionally uploading your child being shamed purposefully for their actions when they're not even emotionally mature enough to handle it.
No. I'm sorry, but no.[/QUOTE]
Okay, let's look back at that Xbox video. This is what I think would be acceptable:
[quote][roll camera]
Me: Alright, so we've been having some problems in our home recently, specifically with grades. It's been pretty troubling, but what we're trying to teach our dear Jimmy is that there are priorities in life, and when those priorities don't get enough attention we have to remove the things in life that are distractions. Let it rip, Jimmy.
[kid smashes Xbox]
Me: Give it some time, and we'll get him the next big thing. When he's ready, though.[/quote]
That's a lot better than:
[quote][roll camera]
Break the Xbox. DO IT.
[kids sobbing][/quote]
It also goes back to how old the kid is, the circumstances, their maturity, etc. You wouldn't teach a two year old by having a stern talk and grounding them, nor would you teach a fifteen year old with a swift spanking. It's all about judgement.
And I'm saying there's no circumstance in which your judgement should be to make a publicly shared video shared both with people the kid knows, and the world at large where the world will laugh at him and in a world where his friends probably won't be supportive(what if the child is bullied and doesn't confide that in their parent?)
Parenting is about making judgement calls, you're right. And making the judgement call that you know for a fact, the BEST, AND ONLY COURSE OF ACTION, is to create a video that publicly humiliates your child to the world is just wrong.
I don't care. It just is.
There's always going to be better ways.
What's wrong with the mock video layout I just posted? That doesn't sound very humiliating at all.
(Bare in mind, I'm not having a kid any time soon, so you won't have to worry about that.)
Because if you're going to be thinking it out that much, you've got a good enough head on your shoulders to make a better judgement call
[QUOTE=wauterboi;47896511]Okay, let's look back at that Xbox video. This is what I think would be acceptable:
That's a lot better than:
It also goes back to how old the kid is, the circumstances, their maturity, etc. You wouldn't teach a two year old by having a stern talk and grounding them, nor would you teach a fifteen year old with a swift spanking. It's all about judgement.[/QUOTE]
I have a much more elaborate idea!:
Instead of forcing a kid to destroy their beloved object and putting it up on the internet, how about you just take it away and keep it under your bed until the grades go up? But wait there's more! After completely that step you sit down with that kid and help him study and with his homework.
I know I must sound pretty crazy but I believe yelling at your kid and making them break things won't solve the main issues even with some dumb monologue in the beginning. I don't see why anybody would support any of those dumb "parenting" videos. There is zero reason to put ANY kind of video of you discipling your kid no matter how mild the punishment or how shitty the kids were. Keep it private.
It's simple shit man, xbox dad wouldn't have to do none of that shit if he just sat down and help the little dude with his math.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47896537]There's always going to be better ways.[/QUOTE]
The possible existence of better ways and having the knowledge and means of employing those ways are two completely different things.
You paint this picture that "oh, it's obvious, that's a terrible thing to do a child" along with a vague "there's always going to be better ways", which to me is an idyllic point of view. This isn't a perfect world where everyone has the ability to come up with a better way regardless of how much they may want to.
We do not know what, if any, previous approaches the Father tried. We do not know how long this problem has been going on. We do not know much of anything about this case sans what we saw from some 15 second video. Yet you're eager to say that this person is unequivocally a bad parent because "any parent who publicly shames their child as a punishment is a bad parent".
Who are you to judge? For all you know this has been going on for a year and the Father has tried a wide range of things with no impact, so he tried this not knowing what else to do.
Furthermore, you assume this is punishment (which I view as something you would do for say getting bad grades), but we don't have a clue what, if anything, the girl did beyond "getting messed up" which could mean anything. There are things that could be called "getting messed up" which will ruin a person's life (hard drugs, for example).
[QUOTE=Iago;47896659]I have a much more elaborate idea!:
Instead of forcing a kid to destroy their beloved object and putting it up on the internet, how about you just take it away and keep it under your bed until the grades go up? But wait there's more! After completely that step you sit down with that kid and help him study and with his homework.
I know I must sound pretty crazy but I believe yelling at your kid and making them break things won't solve the main issues even with some dumb monologue in the beginning. I don't see why anybody would support any of those dumb "parenting" videos. There is zero reason to put ANY kind of video of you discipling your kid no matter how mild the punishment or how shitty the kids were. Keep it private.
It's simple shit man, xbox dad wouldn't have to do none of that shit if he just sat down and help the little dude with his math.[/QUOTE]If it can help your kid become more self aware, and you aren't a colossal jerk about it, then I don't see the problem.
Also, you can also do both: talk to your kid and teach them a little bit of a lesson.
[editline]7th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Iago;47896659]Instead of forcing a kid to destroy their beloved object and putting it up on the internet, how about you just take it away and keep it under your bed until the grades go up? But wait there's more! After completely that step you sit down with that kid and help him study and with his homework. [/QUOTE]
It doesn't have to be either or. It could be all of these solutions in one.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;47896696]If it can help your kid become more self aware, and you aren't a colossal jerk about it, then I don't see the problem.
Also, you can also do both: talk to your kid and teach them a little bit of a lesson.[/QUOTE]
Self aware to what? The fact his dad would rather videotape him breaking his toys then actually support his needs and try to help him study? The kids just going to think his dad is an asshole and nothing will change.
Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp? I mean why would a normal person think that borderline bullying their kids will make their grades improve?
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47896670]The possible existence of better ways and having the knowledge and means of employing those ways are two completely different things.
You paint this picture that "oh, it's obvious, that's a terrible thing to do a child" along with a vague "there's always going to be better ways", which to me is an idyllic point of view. This isn't a perfect world where everyone has the ability to come up with a better way regardless of how much they may want to.
We do not know what, if any, previous approaches the Father tried. We do not know how long this problem has been going on. We do not know much of anything about this case sans what we saw from some 15 second video. Yet you're eager to say that this person is unequivocally a bad parent because "any parent who publicly shames their child as a punishment is a bad parent".
Who are you to judge? For all you know this has been going on for a year and the Father has tried a wide range of things with no impact, so he tried this not knowing what else to do.
Furthermore, you assume this is punishment (which I view as something you would do for say getting bad grades), but we don't have a clue what, if anything, the girl did beyond "getting messed up" which could mean anything. There are things that could be called "getting messed up" which will ruin a person's life (hard drugs, for example).[/QUOTE]
It costs us nothing to choose to be understanding, and understanding is how you have to be especially in complicated problems like this. Even if the father knew nothing about his girl's problems, he should have made an effort to reach out and find out what, if anything, was causing her issues. As for the 'getting messed up' even if she was getting into drugs or the like, given her vulnerable situation you cant exactly blame her for choosing to take what seemed to be an easy way out. More so you can't blame her for committing suicide either because just look at the shit she went through - an incident which went south like this would be enough to break the camel's back leading to suicide, as you see here.
My point being, if you poke your nose into a situation you don't or can't understand, like in this case, there will be consequences. Public humiliation [b]does not solve anything.[/b] Even if it might have some result on the surface, the kid then probably sees it as OK to solve their own problems in future that way, causing a vicious circle. On the flip side they could just as easily grow up to be loving parents who profess that it's wrong to do such things, but why take that chance?
The problem here is that a lot of parents either don't choose to empathize with their children, or carry on the way they do because 'this is how we were raised' even if it is patently wrong. I'm sorry, I don't believe in harsh punishment of this nature, not even in extremis, as being of any use. If a child has broken so far that even such methods don't work to change them, its time to acknowledge maybe that it doesn't work and find some other means. Though it could just as well backfire a second time if the child is moved into a foster system, which might have the effect of making them seem more unwanted than they actually are.
With all this said, its fucking impossible to form a web of conclusions for every action taken simply because there's no accounting for what everybody would do in that situation, but what we do know is that this kind of punishment is patently wrong and does much more harm than any good, if at all.
I myself have been in similar situations more than once when I was young - my father used to have anger issues he inherited from his mother, my grandma, and would sometimes get physical in the event of a fight or if something made him angry for whatever reason. He understood later in his life that it was wrong to do so and has since never done such things, but there were times when I used to be afraid of fights breaking out in the house back then. People can and do change given the opportunity to do so, he only thought it was OK do to it because it was the way he was raised. I can't really blame him, he was a product of his circumstances as much as I am. That said, he's always been a kind man and a good provider to our family, and is the greatest dad a guy could have.
With my piece said, I hope the kid rests in peace now. She's suffered enough and I can't imagine what the dad himself would be going through right now.
[QUOTE=Iago;47896736]Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp? I mean why would a normal person think that borderline bullying their kids will make their grades improve?[/QUOTE]
I'm going to say this: your message is reasonable, but the way you're arguing reminds me of those Tumblr activists that say "you're a fucking pig" and then when they ask why "the knowledge is there! You just have to go out there and get it!"
Look, I don't have a problem with being wrong. I argue to figure out my stance on a subject. Sitting there saying, "Really?" over and over doesn't solve anything, though. What are you trying to do, shame me into seeing your point of view? Ridiculous.
I can't wait for the day that being wrong on Facepunch doesn't equal some sort of voluntary mental deficiency with you guys. Zone and HumanAbyss are fine, but what is this game you're trying to play? I'm not playing it dude.
With that said, I think I'm going to back down from my position. I think there's better alternatives that function just the same as I'm imagining the shame solutions.
[QUOTE=Jamsponge;47893465]He didn't do anything illegal. It just led to a tragic result. Losing his own daughter is enough of a punishment, and if he shows no remorse for these actions leading to her death then honestly he's a piece of shit and, at the very least, she is free of having to put up with the kind of parent who wouldn't even care if you died.[/QUOTE]
I don't know about US or UK law, but in here pressuring or inciting someone to suicide is very serious crime.
[QUOTE=Butthurter;47896905]lmao imagine being a teenage boy and likening your own bullying to the bullying of teenage girls where girls are generally expected to have long hair to look pretty
you can go ahead and post how celebs have short hair all you want, but youll still get a bunch of guys agreeing with eachother that short haired women apparently look obnoxious
hair grows back guys jesus
no need to make a bigger fuss than it is[/QUOTE]
I honestly didn't even look at the video. That doesn't look so bad, at least from what I was able to make out.
However, forcing that onto someone as a punishment is stupid.
It isn't even about the hair, as much as I'm completely against assaulting your child. It's about what happened after.
I'm actually curious about what the kid did to warrant a punishment like that, if anything.
It's one thing to discipline your child for inappropriate behavior, but to record it and upload the clip to the internet is not the way to go about it. Public shamming in general is pretty distasteful when it's blatantly unnecessary.
[QUOTE=catbarf;47894959]I don't agree with the public shaming, but the idea that a child has sovereign rights over their physical appearance is ridiculous. If a kid comes home with a mohawk and a nose ring because all the cool kids are doing it it's not [i]abuse[/i] for a parent to intervene.[/QUOTE]
how incredibly pointless to bring that up, it's a completely different situation
[QUOTE=Iago;47896736]Self aware to what? The fact his dad would rather videotape him breaking his toys then actually support his needs and try to help him study? The kids just going to think his dad is an asshole and nothing will change.
Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp? I mean why would a normal person think that borderline bullying their kids will make their grades improve?[/QUOTE]
I'm a bit late on this, but I cannot stress this post enough.
I've worked with elementary/middle school kids for 4+ years and I cannot tell you how many times I've sat down to talk to a kid who is absolutely miserable during the day, only for them to tell me that their parents took away their game or their phone or their tablet because they had bad grades in a glass, rather than actually get help for them.
Kids this age don't exactly know how to ask for help. They see their grades as a reflection of their competence. If they have bad grades, they assume that they're stupid and they'll very readily accept this conclusion. They won't seek out a tutor unless their parents set one up for them. But VERY OFTEN, the parent doesn't have time for that. They don't have time to get their kid academic help, nor do they have time to sit down with their kid and try and help them that way.
The quick go-to thing to do has become to take away something that makes the child happy. And that alone is a solution I don't agree with. Of course, this is something specifically geared towards bad grades. Taking away things for other disciplinary reasons like getting into trouble or fights or what-have-you may be an acceptable thing to do.
But I am so against having things taken away for bad grades because it literally solves absolutely nothing. In none of the cases I've seen personally has a child's grades improved because they no longer have access to their Xbox.
[QUOTE=CrimsonChin;47895874]It's hard to tell how long her hair was, but it looks like her hair was fairly long. Hair grows about 1/2" a month, and you should get it trimmed 2-3 times a year when growing it, so by the time she grew it back she could have been 15 or 16 depending on her birthday.. and seeing how shitty teen girls treat eachother over hair she was probably afraid she'd get bullied.[/QUOTE]
Getting your hair ceremonially removed as a punishment always feels like the Arbiter getting shame-branded in halo.
It's happened to me a few more times than I care to admit. And not at short lengths either..
[QUOTE=wauterboi;47896867]I'm going to say this: your message is reasonable, but the way you're arguing reminds me of those Tumblr activists that say "you're a fucking pig" and then when they ask why "the knowledge is there! You just have to go out there and get it!"
Look, I don't have a problem with being wrong. I argue to figure out my stance on a subject. Sitting there saying, "Really?" over and over doesn't solve anything, though. What are you trying to do, shame me into seeing your point of view? Ridiculous.
I can't wait for the day that being wrong on Facepunch doesn't equal some sort of voluntary mental deficiency with you guys. Zone and HumanAbyss are fine, but what is this game you're trying to play? I'm not playing it dude.
With that said, I think I'm going to back down from my position. I think there's better alternatives that function just the same as I'm imagining the shame solutions.[/QUOTE]
The reason why I was an asshole was because you're defending some dude's parenting after said parenting literally caused a kid to kill herself. Ofcourse I'm going to treat you like a fuckboi.
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