[QUOTE=Cone;42178387]you are literally telling me that human rights can and should be subverted and worked around by "any half-decent citizen." that's exactly what you're saying. well let me spell it out for you why you're wrong, and everyone who agrees with you is wrong: that's a fucking evil thing to say. like, oh my god, that's completely maniacal.
humans rights exist for a REASON dude, if you can just say "oh well their not humans anyway derp de derp" as it becomes convenient to yourself, then what the fuck kind of arbitrary, retarded line in the sand are you drawing to separate yourself from the criminals? why is it right when you dehumanize and kill people, but not when they do literally the exact same fucking thing? what is the actual difference?
let me ask you something. you ever notice how the kinds of sociopaths who commit these crimes never care about their victims in the slightest bit? sounds obvious... right?[/QUOTE]
As far as I'm concerned, they don't deserve to have the protection of human rights if they don't give a shit about someone else's human rights. Why do they deserve to be sheltered under the same umbrella that they started poking holes in? They don't give a shit about the basic human rights of other people, or they wouldn't have raped and killed her.
[editline]13th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;42178437]they aren't ironic at all though
[editline]13th September 2013[/editline]
your response was a lazy one and that's all there is to say. instead of explaining why his posts are contradictory you just posted a stupid image[/QUOTE]
If I need to explain why what he said was hypocritical to you, then you've got bigger problems than some curmudgeon on an internet forum with a differing view.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;42178455]As far as I'm concerned, they don't deserve to have the protection of human rights if they don't give a shit about someone else's human rights. Why do they deserve to be sheltered under the same umbrella that they started poking holes in? They don't give a shit about the basic human rights of other people, or they wouldn't have raped and killed her.[/QUOTE]
my point is that there is no possible exception to human rights and there never should be, because it will always be made arbitrarily. these crimes are nonetheless abhorrent and in my unqualified opinion i seriously doubt they could be rehabilitated (assuming they did actually commit these crimes and weren't just tortured for a confession), but that doesn't mean i'm suddenly going to completely ignore everything that makes us different from them just because i'm an overly vindictive psycho.
[QUOTE=Cone;42178611]my point is that there is no possible exception to human rights and there never should be, because it will always be made arbitrarily. these crimes are nonetheless abhorrent and in my unqualified opinion i seriously doubt they could be rehabilitated (assuming they did actually commit these crimes and weren't just tortured for a confession), but that doesn't mean i'm suddenly going to completely ignore everything that makes us different from them just because i'm an overly vindictive psycho.[/QUOTE]
Neither am I an overly vindictive psycho. Perhaps I would be less hostile towards the poor, misunderstood, torturing, murdering rapists if I considered them to be worthy of any considerations I would give to a fellow human being, but as I have already made abundantly clear, I don't consider them to be worth such sympathy because of what they've done.
I don't know, harsh punishments kind of totally work in some cases (Singapore)
I'm noticing a real common trait that you only disown the death penalty until you've had someone close to you experience something like this.
I am neither nor or for the penalty itself, that does not mean I turn a blind eye to circumstance. Replace the girl with your mother, brother, sister whoever and tell me you wouldn't want death for the accused. Again I am not justifying it, I am putting it into perspective. Death is the be all end all and it is a horrific way to be punished, while you do not agree with it you at the very least can understand it. Stop making out like the big bad government is asserting it's dominance over civilians when the specific details of the judgement and the leading up to it is public information, you only make yourself sound like a 13 year old blogging about how he just discovered the new world order theory.
[QUOTE=Blind Lulu;42178917]At the other end of the spectrum though you have people who have had a loved one killed in the death penalty, only to later learn that they were actually innocent of whatever crime they were accused of.[/QUOTE]
This is so unlikely that it's immediately obvious that you're only saying it in an attempt to counter his point. A failed attempt.
[QUOTE=Captain James;42178815]I'm noticing a real common trait that you only disown the death penalty until you've had someone close to you experience something like this.
I am neither nor or for the penalty itself, that does not mean I turn a blind eye to circumstance. Replace the girl with your mother, brother, sister whoever and tell me you wouldn't want death for the accused. Again I am not justifying it, I am putting it into perspective. Death is the be all end all and it is a horrific way to be punished, while you do not agree with it you at the very least can understand it. Stop making out like the big bad government is asserting it's dominance over civilians when the specific details of the judgement and the leading up to it is public information, you only make yourself sound like a 13 year old blogging about how he just discovered the new world order theory.[/QUOTE]
Yeah maybe because emotion and loss clouds your judgement and you shouldn't be weighing in on the subject under those circumstances.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;42178647]Neither am I an overly vindictive psycho. Perhaps I would be less hostile towards the poor, misunderstood, torturing, murdering rapists if I considered them to be worthy of any considerations I would give to a fellow human being, but as I have already made abundantly clear, I don't consider them to be worth such sympathy because of what they've done.[/QUOTE]
well i can definitely understand the lack of sympathy but human rights violations are really really [I]really[/I] not something you want to be playing around with, because as i've said they're basically all hideously evil no matter what
[QUOTE=Cone;42178990]well i can definitely understand the lack of sympathy but human rights violations are really really [I]really[/I] not something you want to be playing around with, because as i've said they're basically all hideously evil no matter what[/QUOTE]
And therein lies the problem. If human rights violations are hideously evil, then what is the fitting punishment for the violators? How can anyone attempt to defend them from the consequences of their own actions while still decrying their actions as evil? It's a self-defeating argument.
[QUOTE=Captain James;42178815]Stop making out like the big bad government is asserting it's dominance over civilians when the specific details of the judgement and the leading up to it is public information, you only make yourself sound like a 13 year old blogging about how he just discovered the new world order theory.[/QUOTE]
but it totally fucking is though. the death penalty is literally the government deciding they want to kill someone because they've decided that they have the right to do that. we don't let the government imprison people without trial because it sets the precedent that they have the power to do that, that's why Guantanamo Bay is such a problem. so why is that very same precedent now irrelevant? it's completely ridiculous
[QUOTE=thisispain;42175897]umm i dont think thats the only alternative[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying it is. I didn't even say that a death sentence was, as Tucan Sam puts it, "real justice". I simply said it's closer to real justice than what U.S. judges have been deciding upon recently.
[QUOTE=Blind Lulu;42178917]At the other end of the spectrum though you have people who have had a loved one killed in the death penalty, only to later learn that they were actually innocent of whatever crime they were accused of.[/QUOTE]
Again, it is extremely circumstantial. We don't live in a paragon, cosmopolitan society so we have to work with what we have. Something like the death penalty should only be used in an extreme case such as this one when the evidence is literally damning and right there.
[QUOTE=Explosions;42178966]Yeah maybe because emotion and loss clouds your judgement and you shouldn't be weighing in on the subject under those circumstances.[/QUOTE]
Or it opens you to the concept of the real world?
Go ask any seasoned psychologist, not everyone is ultimately reformable. I don't say this to be edgy, but this is just the way things are. If you understand how the brain works, I'll try to put it into a simple analogy. People think people are like the sculptors marble, and you have to sculpt the perfect statue later on in life, however it's the opposite generally speaking most if not all people are okay to begin with, the society and environment they grow up in moulds them and chips away at that already perfect marble creating people who become sociopaths/rapists or your everyday level headed person.
I also wasn't being rhetorical, seriously go ask any seasoned psychologist and they'll tell you the same thing.
[editline]14th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cone;42179029]but it totally fucking is though. the death penalty is literally the government deciding they want to kill someone because they've decided that they have the right to do that. we don't let the government imprison people without trial because it sets the precedent that they have the power to do that, that's why Guantanamo Bay is such a problem. so why is that very same precedent now irrelevant? it's completely ridiculous[/QUOTE]
Protip: the government that made that decision consists of logical thinking human beings like you and I, they're not an alien species or army of robots. They have cognitive thought, the gift of guilt and conciousness. You make out like they're comically evil fat cats with big money bags and Cuban cigars dictating the lives of the worlds poor.
[QUOTE=Explosions;42177204][i]You feel good when people die.[/i][/QUOTE]
damn right I do
[QUOTE=Cone;42179029]but it totally fucking is though. the death penalty is literally the government deciding they want to kill someone because they've decided that they have the right to do that. we don't let the government imprison people without trial because it sets the precedent that they have the power to do that, that's why Guantanamo Bay is such a problem. so why is that very same precedent now irrelevant? it's completely ridiculous[/QUOTE]
Uhh, pretty sure that in this case it's the government deciding they want to kill someone because they raped an innocent woman and ripped her fucking guts out through her anus.
[editline]13th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Captain James;42179039]Again, it is extremely circumstantial. We don't live in a paragon, cosmopolitan society so we have to work with what we have. Something like the death penalty should only be used in an extreme case such as this one when the evidence is literally damning and right there.
Or it opens you to the concept of the real world?
Go ask any seasoned psychologist, not everyone is ultimately reformable. I don't say this to be edgy, but this is just the way things are. If you understand how the brain works, I'll try to put it into a simple analogy. People think people are like the sculptors marble, and you have to sculpt the perfect statue later on in life, however it's the opposite generally speaking most if not all people are okay to begin with, the society and environment they grow up in moulds them and chips away at that already perfect marble creating people who become sociopaths/rapists or your everyday level headed person.
I also wasn't being rhetorical, seriously go ask any seasoned psychologist and they'll tell you the same thing.
[editline]14th September 2013[/editline]
Protip: the government consists of human beings like you and I, they're not an alien species or army of robots. They have cognitive thought, the gift of guilt and conciousness. You make out like they're comically evil fat cats with big money bags and Cuban cigars dictating the lives of the worlds poor.[/QUOTE]
That's because that's exactly how he sees them.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;42179016]And therein lies the problem. If human rights violations are hideously evil, then what is the fitting punishment for the violators? How can anyone attempt to defend them from the consequences of their own actions while still decrying their actions as evil? It's a self-defeating argument.[/QUOTE]
This ^
It's debatable sure, but worth value of thought when human rights are only obtainable to someone that committed a crime if they value them themselves.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;42178945]This is so unlikely that it's immediately obvious that you're only saying it in an attempt to counter his point. A failed attempt.[/QUOTE][URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution#United_States[/URL]
At least someone in for life, if proven innocent, has a life to return to. I find the idea of callously shrugging off the hideous miscarriage of justice of wrongful executions extremely disgusting tbh.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;42179016]And therein lies the problem. If human rights violations are hideously evil, then what is the fitting punishment for the violators? How can anyone attempt to defend them from the consequences of their own actions while still decrying their actions as evil? It's a self-defeating argument.[/QUOTE]
you act like the death penalty is in any way a natural, necessary consequence. punishment is also unnecessary unless it's objectively proven to help the justice system, as a justice system should be rational and based in fact, not your old-timey, unnecessarily brutal bunch of bullshit.
[QUOTE=Cone;42179116]you act like the death penalty is in any way a natural, necessary consequence. punishment is also unnecessary unless it's objectively proven to help the justice system, as a justice system should be rational and based in fact, not your old-timey, unnecessarily brutal bunch of bullshit.[/QUOTE]
Do you even realize what you're arguing for anymore? You're seriously trying to say that we shouldn't punish anyone period? Do you realize how absolutely fucking thick you're making yourself look at this point?
[QUOTE=Captain James;42179039]Protip: the government that made that decision consists of logical thinking human beings like you and I, they're not an alien species or army of robots. They have cognitive thought, the gift of guilt and conciousness. You make out like they're comically evil fat cats with big money bags and Cuban cigars dictating the lives of the worlds poor.[/QUOTE]
you haven't told me what the difference is between the government having the right to kill people and the government having the right to imprison them without trial. i never even mentioned any of this fatcat bullshit so stop putting words in my mouth and answer the fucking question
[editline]13th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Strongbad;42179145]Do you even realize what you're arguing for anymore? You're seriously trying to say that we shouldn't punish anyone period? Do you realize how absolutely fucking thick you're making yourself look at this point?[/QUOTE]
tell me why i'm objectively wrong
[QUOTE=Cone;42179152]you haven't told me what the difference is between the government having the right to kill people and the government having the right to imprison them without trial. i never even mentioned any of this fatcat bullshit so stop putting words in my mouth and answer the fucking question
[editline]13th September 2013[/editline]
tell me why i'm objectively wrong[/QUOTE]
You're objectively wrong because punishment ALWAYS helps the justice system. If we didn't punish people severely for committing severe crimes, they wouldn't give two fucking shits about committing them because they know people like you want to ensure that they're handled with velvet gloves lest you damage their feelings.
[QUOTE=Generic Monk;42178088]How is this even an argument? Wow, this other failure of justice exists - obviously the only option is to choose between one of the two[/QUOTE]
That's not even what I'm saying at all. If you were to take the time to read into what I posted, you'd understand that I'm not saying the death penalty is "right" or "proper". I'm not condoning it all, I'm simply saying that it is a better form of justice for men who brutally raped and murdered an innocent girl than it is to just let them go virtually free. Seriously, it seems as though everyone on Facepunch reads my post and instantly assumes that I believe the death penalty is the only solution. If that were the case, the human population would be drastically reduced.
But at least it'd solve overpopulation.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;42179181]You're objectively wrong because punishment ALWAYS helps the justice system. If we didn't punish people severely for committing severe crimes, they wouldn't give two fucking shits about committing them because they know people like you want to ensure that they're handled with velvet gloves lest you damage their feelings.[/QUOTE]
tell me how this is objectively proven
[QUOTE=Cone;42179208]tell me how this is objectively proven[/QUOTE]
And now, you're resorting to the absolute last tool in the arsenal - yelling for me to prove a fact. This is like a kid playing a superhero game finally giving up and saying "But you can't kill me. I'm invincible."
[QUOTE=Strongbad;42179221]And now, you're resorting to the absolute last tool in the arsenal - yelling for me to prove it. This is like a kid playing a superhero game finally giving up and saying "But you can't kill me. I'm invincible."[/QUOTE]
you need to prove that killing dudes and violating human rights is necessary in any way shape or form before i'll believe you. the burden of proof is on you
[QUOTE=Cone;42179232]you need to prove that killing dudes and violating human rights is necessary in any way shape or form before i'll believe you. the burden of proof is on you[/QUOTE]
I didn't say that killing dudes and violating human rights is necessary in any way, shape or form. I said that punishment is necessary, contradicting your earlier statement. That being said, yes, it is necessary to kill some of these bastards in the worst cases, both because it's justice to do so and because it will scare anyone else who may consider doing this. They'll think twice about raping someone to death if they know they might get a well-deserved long drop with a short stop for it.
good ol' death penalty, doing no good since the beginning of time
[QUOTE=Strongbad;42179262]I didn't say that killing dudes and violating human rights is necessary in any way, shape or form. I said that punishment is necessary, contradicting your earlier statement. That being said, yes, it is necessary to kill some of these bastards in the worst cases, both because it's justice to do so and because it will scare anyone else who may consider doing this. They'll think twice about raping someone to death if they know they might get a well-deserved long drop with a short stop for it.[/QUOTE]
give me recidivism statistics in India please, since you're the one making the assertion here. plus India has an absolute rape epidemic going on so i kind of doubt that whole "scare them straight" thing is really working out too well for them right now.
also why is it justice if you're admitting that it's unnecessary? this is my point exactly, the justice system needs to be based on facts rather than heart-throbbing lies
[QUOTE=Cone;42179341]give me recidivism statistics in India please, since you're the one making the assertion here. plus India has an absolute rape epidemic going on so i kind of doubt that whole "scare them straight" thing is really working out too well for them right now.
also why is it justice if you're admitting that it's unnecessary? this is my point exactly, the justice system needs to be based on facts rather than heart-throbbing lies[/QUOTE]
No shit. Obviously it isn't going to do anything for them until people like you stop trying to treat the poor wikkel murdering rapists nicely.
[editline]13th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Blind Lulu;42179384]When exactly has this ever been proven? For example when I see murder rates in the United States in states that hold the death penalty all I see is contradictions.[/QUOTE]
How about providing some numbers instead of just saying "you can take my word for it"?
[QUOTE=Blind Lulu;42179421][url]http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates[/url][/QUOTE]
"deathpenaltyinfo.org"
Seems legit :v:
[editline]13th September 2013[/editline]
Regardless, these stats are from America, not India.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;42179467]"deathpenaltyinfo.org"
Seems legit :v:[/QUOTE]Then compare the figures yourself if you don't believe it.
Here's the [url=http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-5]FBI's crime statistics for 2011[/url] (2012 is inaccessible for some reason)
and here's [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_united_states#States_without_capital_punishment]a list of states which abolished the death penalty.[/url]
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