With echoes of Wounded Knee, tribes mount prairie occupation to block North Dakota pipeline
133 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Aredbomb;50967853]Why? Getting fucked by corruption is one thing, but disqualifying people specifically because they're educated? What are they trying to avoid?[/QUOTE]
They equate education with whiteness and integrating into western culture. You're an Uncle Tom if you go to school.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50967738]To be fair, that sounds like a bullshit lawsuit. Imagine if France sued beret manufacturers because they used the word "French" to market them.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;50967836]
More like a city[/QUOTE]
In Europe, some products such as foodstuff with an established link to a certain geographical area are granted a protected status in order to be able to compete against non-genuine products.
Might be rather extreme in the case of the Navajo Nation, but as a principle, it's not that far-fetched.
[QUOTE=space1;50967695]But still, they deserve their own country separate from ours.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;50967836]
More like a city[/QUOTE]
This is practically already the case with the reservation system, and look at the places. They're all impoverished, poverty ridden ghettos with rampant drug use and alcoholism and no efforts are being taken to do anything about it except the occasional billboard. Do you think that they are capable of running and maintaining their own country?
Yes, they were very clearly wronged in the past, but that doesn't mean they're currently capable of running their own country. They can barely manage to run small communities of just a few hundred.
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;50967989]This is practically already the case with the reservation system, and look at the places. They're all impoverished, poverty ridden ghettos with rampant drug use and alcoholism and no efforts are being taken to do anything about it except the occasional billboard. Do you think that they are capable of running and maintaining their own country?
Yes, they were very clearly wronged in the past, but that doesn't mean they're currently capable of running their own country. They can barely manage to run small communities of just a few hundred.[/QUOTE]
That's not what i was responding to
[QUOTE=space1;50967695]But still, they deserve their own country separate from ours.[/QUOTE]
What makes the people alive today deserve their own country?
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;50972237]What makes the people alive today deserve their own country?[/QUOTE]
Because they were disenfranchised from their ancestral lands and cultures by the very countries they're citizens of. And the ramifications of the disenfranchisement and oppression have continued to this day - there are still people alive who were taken from their parents and forced to live in residential schools; hundreds of languages and religious customs and tribes are dying or already gone because of enforcing 'civilized' ideals, or illness from Old World pathogens, or Europeans just straight up murdering folks; I could go on.
This issue hasn't stopped mattering because it happened a long time ago, because it's actually still happening. Events cause ripples.
[QUOTE=space1;50967695]But still, they deserve their own country separate from ours.[/QUOTE]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_sovereignty_in_the_United_States[/url]
[QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;50972287]Because they were disenfranchised from their ancestral lands and cultures by the very countries they're citizens of. And the ramifications of the disenfranchisement and oppression have continued to this day - there are still people alive who were taken from their parents and forced to live in residential schools; hundreds of languages and religious customs and tribes are dying or already gone because of enforcing 'civilized' ideals, or illness from Old World pathogens, or Europeans just straight up murdering folks; I could go on.
This issue hasn't stopped mattering because it happened a long time ago, because it's actually still happening. Events cause ripples.[/QUOTE]
Could you cite where American Natives were forced off reservations and put into boarding schools? Heard of this for Canadian natives but not American ones, at least not in recent history.
And again, with the reservation system the way it is, its practically their own country currently. And because of that, reservations are massively impoverished and ridden with alcoholism and drug use.
[QUOTE=Worstcase;50964720]The only thing that will result in is people getting shot. If the natives want to win this they'll have to appeal to a court and have them rule in their favor.[/QUOTE]
and unfortunately that will never happen because the odds are slanted against them. the system is (tragically) engineered to result in more violence.
[editline]30th August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;50965002]Yeah we fucked them up, but they should learn to get over it.
It happened, we can't reverse history. Same thing with slavery. It's time to get over it. No one alive now is responsible for the past.[/QUOTE]
you are a tool
[QUOTE=Roger Waters;50973947]and unfortunately that will never happen because the odds are slanted against them. the system is (tragically) engineered to result in more violence[/QUOTE]
It is not "engineered" towards more violence. No one is forcing anyone to take up weapons to fight anyone else. Stop being melodramatic.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50964950]At this point it would be better to just get rid of the reservations and force the tribes to integrate into normal society.[/QUOTE]
I suppose now is as good a time as any to clear away the last vestiges of the bones of the nations that the land of the free and brave was built upon.
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
These reservations are eyesores indeed, especially for the people who might otherwise be reminded that these ethnic groups and their troubles exist.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;50975389]I'll document your feedback and use it to improve my later posts, thanks.
(not really)[/QUOTE]
youre still a tool
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Worstcase;50975454]It is not "engineered" towards more violence. No one is forcing anyone to take up weapons to fight anyone else. Stop being melodramatic.[/QUOTE]
the only way to repent against The Man is buying pro-socialist bumper stickers
[QUOTE=Roger Waters;50979485]the only way to repent against The Man is buying pro-socialist bumper stickers[/QUOTE]
Are you really implying that the appropriate response here is to shoot up the Army Corps because they are building pipes next to a Native American reservation? Because that's sounds a lot like eco-terrorism. This isn't 1984 either, you can stop being dramatic and just call them "the government" instead of "The Man".
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50978019]I suppose now is as good a time as any to clear away the last vestiges of the bones of the nations that the land of the free and brave was built upon.
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
These reservations are eyesores indeed, especially for the people who might otherwise be reminded that these ethnic groups and their troubles exist.[/QUOTE]
People don't want to get rid of the reservation systems because they're eyesores or because of white guilt or because of some other bullshit like that. They want to get rid of them because they're non functioning communities and almost completely detrimental for everyone involved.
I'm certainly not calling for forced integration or the complete removal of the reservation system and their tribal lands, but I do recognize that the system is clearly broken and abused. You can't equate people calling for the abolishment of a broken system to people wanting the complete removal of a culture.
[editline]1st September 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Roger Waters;50973947]and unfortunately that will never happen because the odds are slanted against them. the system is (tragically) engineered to result in more violence.
[/QUOTE]
I'm genuinely curious how you think an appeals system is skewed to create more violence??
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50978019]I suppose now is as good a time as any to clear away the last vestiges of the bones of the nations that the land of the free and brave was built upon.
[editline]31st August 2016[/editline]
These reservations are eyesores indeed, especially for the people who might otherwise be reminded that these ethnic groups and their troubles exist.[/QUOTE]
It's helping literally no one to keep them around. The people who live there are living in horrible conditions, the society in general sinks tons of money into it, the kids born there have to grow up under generally bad conditions, etc.
It's not like I want to make a law tomorrow that immediately gets rid of them. I would institute a long term phase down that ends with the total integration into normal society.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50981768]It's helping literally no one to keep them around. The people who live there are living in horrible conditions, the society in general sinks tons of money into it, the kids born there have to grow up under generally bad conditions, etc.
It's not like I want to make a law tomorrow that immediately gets rid of them. I would institute a long term phase down that ends with the total integration into normal society.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that in many of these cases you're talking about basically getting rid of a number of nations with some degree of sovereignty. Many of these tribes and the pitiful reservations they posses (a fraction of the lands they used to hold) are sometimes countries unto themselves with their own legal systems and system of governance.
Is it true and as a general rule that all of these reservations are in such conditions? Is the department of the government responsible for dealings with the Indian nations actually doing its job correctly? How is the land to be redistributed after this? Will lands of special cultural or religious importance receive protection? What will happen to the tribes internal systems of administration and government?
I would argue that these reservations ought to be given back some land and more autonomy. Many of them are shitholes precisely because they are left with shit land. I'm certain the Cherokee could do very well as their own nation-state within the USA.
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;50981739]People don't want to get rid of the reservation systems because they're eyesores or because of white guilt or because of some other bullshit like that. They want to get rid of them because they're non functioning communities and almost completely detrimental for everyone involved.
I'm certainly not calling for forced integration or the complete removal of the reservation system and their tribal lands, but I do recognize that the system is clearly broken and abused. You can't equate people calling for the abolishment of a broken system to people wanting the complete removal of a culture.[/QUOTE]
But he explicitly said to get rid of the reservation system and to integrate them into "normal" society, whatever conception of society that happens to be.
[editline]1st September 2016[/editline]
Given some autonomy and enough land, I'm sure that the Indian nations could easily lay the groundwork for the redevelopment of their own distinct nations.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50982625]
But he explicitly said to get rid of the reservation system and to integrate them into "normal" society, whatever conception of society that happens to be.
[editline]1st September 2016[/editline]
Given some autonomy and enough land, I'm sure that the Indian nations could easily lay the groundwork for the redevelopment of their own distinct nations.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough in regards to gis post as I do agree in that regard.
But the tribes basically do have autonomy on their reservation and they have plenty of land as it is. If a non tribal cop pulls over a native on a reservation, or near one, they cant give them a ticket unless they call and get permission from the council. If a native commits a crime in SD then fleas to a SD reservation, then the state police cant arrest them without permission from the council.
Reservations are basically their own countrys as it is. And theres really no viable excuse for them to be as poor as they are. The US govt has bought land from SD reservations that the US govt already owned, multiple times. They were basically giving them millions and using land as an excuse to try and get the tribal govt back on its feet. They are just not at all capable of running their own government.
And its not like they have shit land, at least in the Dakotas. The reservation in NW ND is good farmable land and is right in the middle of bakken oil fields where theres ALOT of good paying jobs and valuable land. But for whatever reason the reservation there is a shithole. Not as bad as others but its awful when you compare it to other non reservation towns in the area.
The reservation in SD is also terrible despite it being fantastic hunting land with no seasonal restrictions for natives and its also great farming land. But the reservation is still a ghetto and awful compared to surrounding non reservation towns. For whatever reason, the people in power are just not capable of governing themselves, and its not because of any restrictions put in place by the federal govt
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;50964938]Haha good luck with that, considering Navajo Nation sued Urban Outfitters for marketing indian-themed clothing under the Navajo name. The judge declared that "Navajo" is a generic term and subject to free use by anyone. We never stopped fucking over the natives.[/QUOTE]
I mean, if I had a clothing line called "Russian stuff" would you consider a court ruling in my favor fucking over Russia? They're their own nations with their own culture. UO just described their clothing line as where the inspiration came from geographically, and more importantly, legally.
One of my best friends was from Arizona, and was from a native american family. He told me so many stories of how fucked up his reservation was that I honestly don't know what to believe.
I've been to one of the ones up north here, it's disturbing as all fuck.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;50964938]Haha good luck with that, considering Navajo Nation sued Urban Outfitters for marketing indian-themed clothing under the Navajo name. The judge declared that "Navajo" is a generic term and subject to free use by anyone. We never stopped fucking over the natives.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, what kind of precedent do you think it'd set to rule that cultures are to be treated as brands?
Say, if using Finnish as a marketing term was reserved for Finnish people, would that include those with Finnish citizenship? Or ethnicity? You'd practically have to have "cultural leaders" to determine the right use of the brand, but on what basis would their opinion be more important than the layman Finn's?
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;50964973]They could get violent about it. And then the feds could just take the land back (since it is in all technicality, federal land), and then they'd be even further behind.[/QUOTE]
actually its not federal land its land owned by another nation entirely which would normally constitute an act of war
tribal governments have tons of faults but their case for not wanting a pipeline through their yard is pretty clear
[QUOTE=Sableye;50994002]actually its not federal land its land owned by another nation entirely which would normally constitute an act of war
tribal governments have tons of faults but their case for not wanting a pipeline through their yard is pretty clear[/QUOTE]
Unless youre talking about native land in Canada, youre completely wrong.
Even if it were an act of war, what can they do about it? Its not like they have standing militias or militaries.
[QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;50972287]Because they were disenfranchised from their ancestral lands and cultures by the very countries they're citizens of. And the ramifications of the disenfranchisement and oppression have continued to this day - there are still people alive who were taken from their parents and forced to live in residential schools; hundreds of languages and religious customs and tribes are dying or already gone because of enforcing 'civilized' ideals, or illness from Old World pathogens, or Europeans just straight up murdering folks; I could go on.
This issue hasn't stopped mattering because it happened a long time ago, because it's actually still happening. Events cause ripples.[/QUOTE]
Didnt this happen ages before any of the ones alive today were born?
guilt is not inherited afaik. neither in sin nor in praise.
[video=youtube;kuZcx2zEo4k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuZcx2zEo4k[/video]
Those SJWs and whiney Indians are finally getting what they deserve.
[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;50964986]Doesnt help that we fucked them up completely.[/QUOTE]
And they continued to fuck themselves in many instances, or more specifically the tribe leaders did.
It's time for integration already.
[QUOTE=phygon;51003474]And they continued to fuck themselves in many instances, or more specifically the tribe leaders did.
It's time for integration already.[/QUOTE]
give them a scolarship at a local uni, and 20.000$ on the condition that they forfeit their status as a native american and to historial suffering.
They can still prounce around in the forest all they want imo, just integrate them and get them out of the preservatives so they can uplift themselves.
Would be cheaper and more beneficial for everyone, or am i missing something here?
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Advocating genocide" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50967738]To be fair, that sounds like a bullshit lawsuit. Imagine if France sued beret manufacturers because they used the word "French" to market them.[/QUOTE]
Yet the EU gives name protections to producers of food and such, like cheddar cheese from England.
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51003482]give them a scolarship at a local uni, and 20.000$ on the condition that they forfeit their status as a native american and to historial suffering.
They can still prounce around in the forest all they want imo, just integrate them and get them out of the preservatives so they can uplift themselves.
Would be cheaper and more beneficial for everyone, or am i missing something here?[/QUOTE]
yeah
the fact where you force them to give up their cultural heritage because "they fucked themselves up after the US COMPLETELY fucked them"
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51003624]yeah
the fact where you force them to give up their cultural heritage because "they fucked themselves up after the US COMPLETELY fucked them"[/QUOTE]
I never said force them, i said offer them...
also even if they would take my deal, it would still be up to them if they want to live according to their ways, they would just have a collage degree and some money in the bank so they have options.
[QUOTE=phygon;51003474]And they continued to fuck themselves in many instances, or more specifically the tribe leaders did.
It's time for integration already.[/QUOTE]
if the Chinese were to invade and conquer the United States, demanding the abolishment of the entire political system and laws, i would suggest that you ought to integrate. it's pretty obvious that losing the fight meant your leaders fucking you over so i would argue that the entire old system with all of its customs and traditions should be abandoned outright for its clear failures.
[editline]5th September 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=staticman;51003440]Those SJWs and whiney Indians are finally getting what they deserve.[/QUOTE]
Hey if living in the land of the free and home of the whopper means you gotta set dogs on people to stop them protesting, well then some sacrifices for freedom have to be made.
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