With echoes of Wounded Knee, tribes mount prairie occupation to block North Dakota pipeline
133 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51003975]if the Chinese were to invade and conquer the United States, demanding the abolishment of the entire political system and laws, i would suggest that you ought to integrate. it's pretty obvious that losing the fight meant your leaders fucking you over so i would argue that the entire old system with all of its customs and traditions should be abandoned outright for its clear failures.
[/QUOTE]
Nobody is denying that the US is unaccountable for the situation Native Americans are in today, but you're denying that Native Americans are also accountable for their situation. Just because the US Govt fucked over their great great grandparents 150 years ago doesn't mean that they have to waste away and blame the government for their own failings. That kind of entitled non sense is a big reason why the reservations are the way they are today.
There is nothing the US Govt has put in place to stop a native from leaving the reservation and finding a good life for themselves. Theres no stipulation for them to abandon their culture and family if they want to use a scholarship for college. Most of them are living in poverty of their own volition.
You seem to have this idea that if we just give them complete autonomy and more land that they'll just end up being fine. It's not as if they're all living in tee-pees and chasing buffalo in 2016 dood. They all live in modern housing and work modern jobs. Throwing more land at them and giving their broken local governments a marginal amount of more power won't fix anything.
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;50994226]Didnt this happen ages before any of the ones alive today were born?
guilt is not inherited afaik. neither in sin nor in praise.[/QUOTE]
Not at all. In fact, as recently as 1967 the US government was still forcibly taking native American children from their homes and shipping them off to special "boarding schools" or white families to "civilize" them. They were permanently taken from their families without cause or appeal, and I'm not talking about a few here and there. This happened on a mass scale:
[Quote]The Indian Adoption Project was a federal program that acquired Indian children from 1958 to 1967 with the help of the prestigious Child Welfare League of America; a successor organization, the Adoption Resource Exchange of North America, functioned from 1966 until the early 1970s. Churches were also involved. In the Southwest, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints took thousands of Navajo children to live in Mormon homes and work on Mormon farms, and the Catholic Church and other Christian denominations swept many more Indian youngsters into residential institutions they ran nationwide, from which some children were then fostered or adopted out. [B]As many as one third of Indian children were separated from their families between 1941 and 1967, according to a 1976 report by the Association on American Indian Affairs.[/B]
Read more at [url]http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2011/12/06/native-americans-expose-adoption-era-and-repair-its-devastation-65966[/url][/quote]
[Quote] During the adoption era almost any issue—from minor to serious—could precipitate the loss of an Indian child. Two Native people interviewed prior to the summit said they were separated from their families after hospital stays as young children, one for a rash, the other for tuberculosis. A third was seized at his baby-sitter’s home; when his mother tried to rescue him, she was jailed, he said. A fourth recalled that he was taken after his father died, though his mother did not want to give him up. A fifth described being snatched, along with siblings, because his grandfather was a medicine man who wouldn’t give up his traditional ways. As in St. John’s case, no home studies or comparable investigations appear to have been done to support the removals. “Indians had no way to stop white people from taking their kids,” said yet another interviewee. “We had no rights.”
Read more at [url]http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2011/12/06/native-americans-expose-adoption-era-and-repair-its-devastation-65966[/url][/quote]
Plenty of shattered families still alive.
[Quote] Decades of stolen children caused unresolved personal and community-wide grief and high rates of alcoholism, suicide and other social ills that stalk individuals and tribes to this day. “It took me years to realize nothing was wrong with me and the response I had to the trauma I’d experienced as an adoptee,” said Sandra Davidson, White Earth Band of Ojibwe and a program manager for Praxis International, a nonprofit dedicated to eliminating violence toward women and children.
Often referred to as “historical trauma,” the pain can’t be cured with quick-fix programs, said Cross. “In Canada, we looked at places where suicide is the highest, and it’s where the culture is most broken down,” he said. “In such cases, do you start suicide-prevention programs, or do you restore balance in the community through more self-governance? I have found that unless you change a community systemically, you can’t affect the symptoms of imbalance, such as suicide.”[/quote]
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51004105]Nobody is denying that the US is unaccountable for the situation Native Americans are in today, but you're denying that Native Americans are also accountable for their situation. Just because the US Govt fucked over their great great grandparents 150 years ago doesn't mean that they have to waste away and blame the government for their own failings. That kind of entitled non sense is a big reason why the reservations are the way they are today.
There is nothing the US Govt has put in place to stop a native from leaving the reservation and finding a good life for themselves. Theres no stipulation for them to abandon their culture and family if they want to use a scholarship for college. Most of them are living in poverty of their own volition.
You seem to have this idea that if we just give them complete autonomy and more land that they'll just end up being fine. It's not as if they're all living in tee-pees and chasing buffalo in 2016 dood. They all live in modern housing and work modern jobs. Throwing more land at them and giving their broken local governments a marginal amount of more power won't fix anything.[/QUOTE]
Considering that they're still steadily losing control over their land, their old rights and privileges, in addition to being absolved of old responsibilities then it's no wonder things are ending up this way.
I don't see why continuing on the present course of taking more land and more powers is a good idea considering it's making conditions for them worse.
And somehow the solution to this is to displace them entirely and shove them elsewhere (presumably the ghettos where they will inevitably end up)
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51004105]Nobody is denying that the US is unaccountable for the situation Native Americans are in today, but you're denying that Native Americans are also accountable for their situation. [B]Just because the US Govt fucked over their great great grandparents 150 years ago[/B] doesn't mean that they have to waste away and blame the government for their own failings. That kind of entitled non sense is a big reason why the reservations are the way they are today. [/QUOTE]
Less than 50 years ago*
[editline]5th September 2016[/editline]
Why do so many people seem to have this notion that, "if it happened before [B]I[/B] was alive, [I]then it's really not important and people just need to get over it."[/I]
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;51004203]Less than 50 years ago*
[editline]5th September 2016[/editline]
Why do so many people seem to have this notion that, "if it happened before [B]I[/B] was alive, [I]then it's really not importantb and people just need to get over it."[/I][/QUOTE]
It's easier for people to shrug off the notion of something happening to somebody as long as it doesn't affect them directly or indirectly, has nothing to do with them in general, or affects somebody they know
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51004159]Considering that they're still steadily losing control over their land, their old rights and privileges, in addition to being absolved of old responsibilities then it's no wonder things are ending up this way.
I don't see why continuing on the present course of taking more land and more powers is a good idea considering it's making conditions for them worse.
And somehow the solution to this is to displace them entirely and shove them elsewhere (presumably the ghettos where they will inevitably end up)[/QUOTE]
Got any citation of them steadily losing their land to the US Govt?
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;51004123]Not at all. In fact, as recently as 1967 the US government was still forcibly taking native American children from their homes and shipping them off to special "boarding schools" or white families to "civilize" them. They were permanently taken from their families without cause or appeal, and I'm not talking about a few here and there. This happened on a mass scale:
Plenty of shattered families still alive.[/QUOTE]
What a bunch of scumfucks... Why arent more people talking about this?
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51004251]What a bunch of scumfucks... Why arent more people talking about this?[/QUOTE]
Native Americans are, for sure. Otherwise? Ignorance, mostly. Native Americans are a very small, and relatively exclusive, minority group. Most people don't have personal experience with them, and don't think to educate themselves on their history.
[QUOTE=staticman;51003440][video=youtube;kuZcx2zEo4k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuZcx2zEo4k[/video]
Those SJWs and whiney Indians are finally getting what they deserve.[/QUOTE]
You have no idea what you are even talking about, this is SJW bullshit
[video=youtube;DujXdWT_2sQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DujXdWT_2sQ&ab_channel=ChrisRayGun[/video]
That is not SJW bullshit, that is people protesting since this pipeline has too many risks to the environment
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51003482]give them a scolarship at a local uni, and 20.000$ on the condition that they forfeit their status as a native american and to historial suffering.
They can still prounce around in the forest all they want imo, just integrate them and get them out of the preservatives so they can uplift themselves.
Would be cheaper and more beneficial for everyone, or am i missing something here?[/QUOTE]
It's not that simple. In most states with significant native american populations, there are already pretty generous grants in place for Native Americans. Many individual schools also have scholarships available for Native Americans. Between federal grants, state grants, tribal grants and scholarships most Native Americans will have no trouble paying for college - and I'm saying that as a Native American currently in college without paying a dime out of pocket.
Further, a one-time gift of twenty-thousand dollars isn't significant when weighted against the other benefits Native Americans are eligible for. Reservations have universal healthcare through Indian Health Services (although the quality of care at IHS facilities is lackluster), there are a variety of programs through the Bureau of Indian Affairs aimed at providing grants and loans for Native Americans to build and renovate houses as well as a plethora of programs aimed at helping secure funding for Native American businesses. Unless these programs are suddenly stripped away, which is highly unlikely, leaders in the Native American community will fight back against any attempts at bargained assimilation.
That being said, after mentioning these generous programs I guess I better explain why Native Americans (particularly those living on reservations) are still largely living in abject poverty. In my opinion, based on my experience, the biggest problem with reservations is the lack of oversight regarding tribal governments. There is virtually no oversight for tribal governments, in contrast to state and local governments elsewhere. This, combined with poverty, lack of education and a strong culture that emphasizes family ties over virtually all else has led to a pandemic of corruption on reservations.
I can go into this in far greater detail but I feel like I'm starting to rant a bit. Suffice it to say, corruption by tribal government officials is easily the biggest problem faced by Native Americans. There is so little oversight that much of the corruption is done overtly. Embezzlement, voter manipulation and bribery are all readily observable on a day-to-day basis.
I should make clear that I'm speaking primarily from experience within my own tribe and reservation. Some have their shit together and are pretty well off.
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51004251]What a bunch of scumfucks... Why arent more people talking about this?[/QUOTE]
Texas high school curriculum covered it in history along with the other bad stuff we've done to natives in the past. Don't know about other states though.
[QUOTE=OvB;51004473]Texas high school curriculum covered it in history along with the other bad stuff we've done to natives in the past. Don't know about other states though.[/QUOTE]
For Texas of all states that's very surprising.
Coming from Canada, it's really strange to hear that Native Americans are still called Indians down in America
[QUOTE=space1;50967695]But still, they deserve their own country separate from ours.[/QUOTE]
That's called the reservations.
They are allowed to enforce their own laws and regulations within those areas, infact all reservations are allowed to produce and sell marijuana.
Realistically speaking, we gave them the land to operate and use, and they decided to turn them into nothing but casinos and lots of criminal activity.
I did have a few minutes to talk to some of my neighbors about this who are out of the Mandan(one of the five tribes) tribe, and they stated they are confused as fuck to why they even bother. The pipeline would most likely allow the tribal areas to produce more money via selling to construction and maintenance crews. Not to mention that the only thing this is accomplishing is straining relations with other North Dakotans who have been trying to help them fend off frackers in their areas.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;50964961]We destroyed their culture and their pride and boxed them into impoverished reservations, and you're going to complain that they're poor? [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;50965003]We did.. about a hundred years ago. Now if you have ANY decent amount of native blood, you're going to school for free, you're going to get a solid job based solely on the fact that you're native, and you're going to qualify for every single government program in existence, without having to prove anything.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much this. In Nova Scotia Canada if you're native the perks are insane, not only are you guaranteed free schooling and money from the government you are also allowed to fish and hunt out of season, you don't pay nearly as much taxes (if it all) and cigarettes are cheap as hell.
even with all those benefits, poverty and alcoholism run rampant along with drug addiction. And it's been like that for decades now.
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51004250]Got any citation of them steadily losing their land to the US Govt?[/QUOTE]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_termination_policy[/url]
This was going strong as late as the 1960s, and most of the issues it caused are still relevant today.
There's also the fact that they don't technically own their own land. The Federal government does, and the way they manage these reservations (through various agencies appointed for the task) makes economic development or the administration of the lands, the laws, etc actually quite difficult. Making matters worse is the fact that the US government is still mismanaging their assets:
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2009/12/08/08greenwire-obama-admin-strikes-34b-deal-in-indian-trust-l-92369.html[/url]
The tribes do not own their own land. They are still subjects of the US president, much like American citizens and are they still under considerable control by the US government.
Why not actually give them what's rightfully theirs and recognise that they are their own nations? Even China grants more autonomy to Tibet and Russia to Crimea than America does to the Amerindians.
[editline]5th September 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;51005331]That's called the reservations.
They are allowed to enforce their own laws and regulations within those areas, infact all reservations are allowed to produce and sell marijuana.[/quote]
most of the powers these reservations have are very weak, they don't even own their own land - the federal government is pretty much the one
[quote]Realistically speaking, we gave them the land to operate and use, and they decided to turn them into nothing but casinos and lots of criminal activity.[/QUOTE]
We gave them the land? How can you give somebody something that's already theirs?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51005393][url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_termination_policy[/url]
This was going strong as late as the 1960s, and most of the issues it caused are still relevant today.
There's also the fact that they don't technically own their own land. The Federal government does, and the way they manage these reservations (through various agencies appointed for the task) makes economic development or the administration of the lands, the laws, etc actually quite difficult. Making matters worse is the fact that the US government is still mismanaging their assets:
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2009/12/08/08greenwire-obama-admin-strikes-34b-deal-in-indian-trust-l-92369.html[/url]
The tribes do not own their own land. They are still subjects of the US president, much like American citizens and are they still under considerable control by the US government.
Why not actually give them what's rightfully theirs and recognise that they are their own nations? Even China grants more autonomy to Tibet and Russia to Crimea than America does to the Amerindians.
[editline]5th September 2016[/editline]
most of the powers these reservations have are very weak, they don't even own their own land - the federal government is pretty much the one
We gave them the land? How can you give somebody something that's already theirs?[/QUOTE]
It became ours once we took it by force, and the natives are not in any position to argue against that force.
[QUOTE=duckmaster;51005791]It became ours once we took it by force, and the natives are not in any position to argue against that force.[/QUOTE]
presumably this logic also applies to countries annexed by germany (and the fate of a certain ethnoreligious demographic) in the years 1939 to 1945
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51005821]presumably this logic also applies to countries annexed by germany (and the fate of a certain ethnoreligious demographic) in the years 1939 to 1945[/QUOTE]
Yes, they did become Germany's, but then people with more force freed them.
plus just because you conquered a place doesn't mean you get to treat the inhabitants like shit. there's basic moral and ethical guidelines to human society and i don't think the "might makes right" logic is a sustainable or desirable maxim
what will happen if the chinese conquer america? i would say that you ought to stop fighting and to start learning mandarin because they won
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51003482]give them a scolarship at a local uni, and 20.000$ on the condition that they forfeit their status as a native american and to historial suffering.
They can still prounce around in the forest all they want imo, just integrate them and get them out of the preservatives so they can uplift themselves.
Would be cheaper and more beneficial for everyone, or am i missing something here?[/QUOTE]
You do realize that forcing them to give up their heritage and identity is basically a form of soft genocide?
You sound like those people that forced native children to go to schools where they would be punished for speaking their own language and forced to assimilate.
This whole thread is a shitshow of racists blaming Native Americans for the problems caused by the American goverment and society.
my wish is that come 400 years time (by which point the USA will be fracturing apart as the administration decays) that several new nations to emerge from it will be distinct amerindian nations - some of which will go about building a better society than the one that preceded it
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51005889]my wish is that come 400 years time (by which point the USA will be fracturing apart as the administration decays) that several new nations to emerge from it will be distinct amerindian nations - some of which will go about building a better society than the one that preceded it[/QUOTE]
Excuse me...but what?
[QUOTE=Snake7;51005858]You do realize that forcing them to give up their heritage and identity is basically a form of soft genocide?
You sound like those people that forced native children to go to schools where they would be punished for speaking their own language and forced to assimilate.
This whole thread is a shitshow of racists blaming Native Americans for the problems caused by the American goverment and society.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it's repulsive. People saying that they can't run themselves so they should just give in and integrate already. It's not integration, it's assimilation. The destruction of the last shreds of their culture, because we deem they are not fit to rule themselves, even though their current status is a direct result of what we did to them in the first place and the tight leash we keep them on.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51005889]my wish is that come 400 years time (by which point the USA will be fracturing apart as the administration decays) that several new nations to emerge from it will be distinct amerindian nations - some of which will go about building a better society than the one that preceded it[/QUOTE]
By that time the Native American culture would probably only exist in the text books, so the chances of that happening are pretty slim.
[QUOTE=duckmaster;51005791]It became ours once we took it by force, and the natives are not in any position to argue against that force.[/QUOTE]
cause might = right
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;50964961]We destroyed their culture and their pride and boxed them into impoverished reservations, and you're going to complain that they're poor?
Isn't that The American Way™? Or is it only okay when rich people do it?[/QUOTE]
Most of my family actually live as if they're in poverty still even though they make shit loads of bank.
Not sure why but I think most of the dudes over at my tribe got fucked mentally before we started getting stuff back.
[QUOTE=Lawligagger;51006169]Most of my family actually live as if they're in poverty still even though they make shit loads of bank.
Not sure why but I think most of the dudes over at my tribe got fucked mentally before we started getting stuff back.[/QUOTE]
As BDA pointed out, attempts at forced assimilation lasted into the 1970's and resulted in a lot of broken families. Yeah, things aren't going to be all fine and dandy today. And certainly the situation today (govt's fault) doesn't mean we should finish them off once and for all...
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;51006198]As BDA pointed out, attempts at forced assimilation lasted into the 1970's and resulted in a lot of broken families. Yeah, things aren't going to be all fine and dandy today. And certainly the situation today (govt's fault) doesn't mean we should finish them off once and for all...[/QUOTE]
Yeah it's pretty shitty, most of my family became alcoholics and drug addicts, only about one or two from the last generation of mine turned out OK but only after coming out of some pretty weird shit.
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;51006143]cause might = right[/QUOTE]
Might may not make right morally, but the mightier person will always be right.
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