• EU bans financial assistance to Israeli organizations in the occupied territories, Israel responds b
    59 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Starpluck;41618139]You don't hold occupiers backed by a superpower to the same standards of an oppressed stateless population, similarly with how you do not do the same with the South African resistance against Apartheid, Algerians against the French, Natives against the Europeans and so on. There are no "equal sides" in this conflict.[/QUOTE] I didn't mean to put them on equal pedestals. I was simply arguing that both sides are doing wrong, yet of course for a reason. My experience just tells me that conversations like these usually get out of hand very fast and usually end up with all people siding over something, yet forgetting that a conflict involves both sides. Of course you cannot stop that entirely but it's less of a "no, they are eviiiil"-kind of argument. These things just got out of hand when the state of Israel got established back then. Things can't be undone, but I say that the evolving events have to be stopped.
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41618185]Some of its friendly neighbors want to "wipe it off the map"[/QUOTE] Palestine was a colonized region that was passed off to another new state. The surrounding countries, as well as the actual inhabitants of the land and surrounding neighbors don't need to be content with a foreign nation trading off the "rights" to the land that they themselves own and tend. Nobody has any right to do that, and those who are subject to such injustices have every right to defend themselves. Out of curiosity, since you're in britain, what do you think of events such as the highland clearances, or the colonization of Ulster, or the displacement of gaelic chieftians into connacht, or the ethnic cleansing of the cymry?
It amazes me how a fascist state could still be surviving, and well for that matter in the 21st century
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41617556]So it goes roughly like this? [media][URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN3qR2H4jGY[/URL][/media][/QUOTE] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey_oP2Goef4[/media]
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;41618434]Palestine was a colonized region that was passed off to another new state.[/QUOTE] I'm not too sure how it was colonized. There was a UN partition plan which the Jews accepted, except the Arabs disagreed and fighting broke out. Israel got the upper hand in the conflict after the wealthier Palestinians emigrated, followed by the leadership going full potato and collapsing. [quote]The surrounding countries, as well as the actual inhabitants of the land and surrounding neighbors don't need to be content with a foreign nation trading off the "rights" to the land that they themselves own and tend.[/quote] Like it or not, Israel exists now. It's difficult to uproot a nation of so many persons whom were promised that land and wished to return to it for so long. [quote]Nobody has any right to do that, and those who are subject to such injustices have every right to defend themselves.[/quote] Hence why the neighboring states invaded Israel in 1948. [quote]Out of curiosity, since you're in britain, what do you think of events such as the highland clearances, or the colonization of Ulster, or the displacement of gaelic chieftians into connacht, or the ethnic cleansing of the cymry?[/quote] You do realize that the Highland clearances were mostly done by the original chiefs of the land? Many of them couldn't give a shit about their tenants and replaced them with sheep when their rich lifestyles down in Edinburgh or London ate into their savings account. To say that it is ethnic cleansing or the fault of the British government is laughable. It was simple economics which drove them out, much like that of all the other peasants throughout European history. Cymry? You surely mean the Welsh? I don't think that ethnic cleansing happened with them, given that the number of speakers remained stable into the 18th century. The reason why is because English people began to migrate into Wales during the industrial revolution. This process is still happening today with old people buying homes in Wales. I very much doubt that people migrating to another part of the country is considered ethnic cleansing.
I have nothing but disgust for israel.
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41618767] Like it or not, Israel exists now. It's difficult to uproot a nation of so many persons whom were promised that land and wished to return to it for so long. [/QUOTE] "Wishing to return" doesn't mean anything when they weren't born there, or even are descended from the people who live there, to be frank. The Jewish are not an ethnically homogenous people and many of those who moved to Israel were not recently descended from anybody who lived there. The core reason for "moving back" is religiously motivated. Israel exists, sure, but the only reason it has the ability to propagate itself is due purely to foreign support. They are given money, arms, etc which they would not have the ability to purchase were they not being given so much money. You've shown yourself to be an apologist or outright denier for the grossly disproportionate violence against Palestinians, so there's really not much to talk about anymore if you're not willing to address facts.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;41618883]"Wishing to return" doesn't mean anything when they weren't born there, or even are descended from the people who live there, to be frank.[/quote] Erm, I thought that most Jews are Ashkenazi Jews, originally having migrated to Central Germany during the time of the Byzantine empire? There's no denying the fact that they originally come from Judea, having left between the Roman and Arab conquests?
The byzantine empire ended 500 years ago and lasted over 1000 years before that. That timeframe hardly creates a valid claim to the land. That's assuming that a migrant populace can even remain ethnically and culturally homogenous on top of that.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;41619041]The byzantine empire ended 500 years ago and lasted over 1000 years before that. That timeframe hardly creates a valid claim to the land.[/QUOTE] Except you said that Jews don't have ancestors in Judea, which is patently false. Most Jewish people have ancestors whom, at some stage in time, lived in Judea.
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41619078]Except you said that Jews don't have ancestors in Judea, which is patently false. Most Jewish people have ancestors whom, at some stage in time, lived in Judea.[/QUOTE] All Europeans technically have ancestors who lived in Africa. Doesn't mean African colonialism is a-ok. Just because somebody's great great great great great great great great uncle twice removed was from Judea doesn't not mean one is some sort of magical homogeneously Jewish person who automatically has claim to the ancestral land. If anything the Jewish are a largely European people since they've been in Europe for so long. They are no more Judean than the Palestinians. Actually the Palestinians are probably far more Jewish that the foreign Israelis who came to Israel 50 years ago simply because the Palestinian people have actually been mingling with the Judean people for all that time (ie: thousands of years)
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41618767]I'm not too sure how it was colonized. There was a UN partition plan which the Jews accepted, except the Arabs disagreed and fighting broke out. Israel got the upper hand in the conflict after the wealthier Palestinians emigrated, followed by the leadership going full potato and collapsing.[/QUOTE] Of course the Jewish settlers agreed to it, it gave them more than had ever been previously allocated to a state of Israel. The Arabs disagreed because they owned and lived on a majority of the land in more districts than either the British government or Jewish settlers. For example, here's a map that was commissioned by the UN of land ownership three years after the original partition plan was approved: [t]http://puu.sh/3Nmdf.png[/t]
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;41619135]All Europeans technically have ancestors who lived in Africa. Doesn't mean African colonialism is a-ok.[/quote] Except that was aprox 60,000 years. [quote]Just because somebody's great great great great great great great great uncle twice removed was from Judea doesn't not mean one is some sort of magical homogeneously Jewish person who automatically has claim to the ancestral land. [/quote] They had claim for two reasons: 1. Their ancestors originally came from there. 2. The British promised them a state, and after WW2, much work was done by many countries to establish a country where Jewish people could live without the threat of pogroms. Do you have a better answer to the Jewish question? [quote]If anything the Jewish are a largely European people since they've been in Europe for so long.[/quote] Despite the fact that they were treated like shit and then strangely moved to Israel when told they could have their own country. [quote]They are no more Judean than the Palestinians. Actually the Palestinians are probably far more Jewish that the foreign Israelis who came to Israel 50 years ago simply because the Palestinian people have actually been mingling with the Judean people for all that time (ie: thousands of years)[/QUOTE] It isn't thousands of years. There have been significant numbers of Jewish people in Judea into the middle ages when the Islamic caliphates were powerful. What about Mizrahi Jews? They still lived in the area, even when the Ottomans were out and about. [editline]28th July 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Megafan;41619147]Of course the Jewish settlers agreed to it, it gave them more than had ever been previously allocated to a state of Israel. The Arabs disagreed because they owned and lived on a majority of the land in more districts than either the British government or Jewish settlers. For example, here's a map that was commissioned by the UN of land ownership three years after the original partition plan was approved: [t]http://puu.sh/3Nmdf.png[/t][/QUOTE] Remember that a lot of problems was caused by the first Arab-Israeli war, and that war in particular I blame for the dislocation of all the Jews and Arabs in the area.
Israel is a country I'd like to see get wiped off the face of the map. Literally. Not blown up or anything, just politically and governmentally disbanded and replaced with a country worth a damn.
What is Palestine? Everybody keeps talking about it like it actually exists.
[QUOTE=stabbytheghost;41619740]What is Palestine? Everybody keeps talking about it like it actually exists.[/QUOTE] 'this country is not a country because the US doesn't think it should be'
The US is right that they shouldn't be a "country". Seriously, fuck em
[QUOTE=stabbytheghost;41619825]The US is right that they shouldn't be a "country". Seriously, fuck em[/QUOTE] you look like a reasonable sort, i'm looking forward to having an extensive reasonable debate with you! actually no
I feel like Israel is doing no wrong in the OP. If anything they are doing those Palestinians a favor by letting them stay on Israels land. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitposting" - Megafan))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41619078]Except you said that Jews don't have ancestors in Judea, which is patently false. Most Jewish people have ancestors whom, at some stage in time, lived in Judea.[/QUOTE] My ancestors once lived in the african area we now call Ethiopia. Better go back there and claim it as my own territory because it clearly belongs to me
[QUOTE=Generic Monk;41619780]'this country is not a country because [B]There has literally been no coherent "nation" of "Palestine" until the creation of a separatist movement post WW2 in reaction to the creation of an Israeli State in the Levant[/B]'[/QUOTE] FTFY.
Jews were immigrating to Palestine [i]BEFORE[/i] WW2.
[QUOTE=barttool;41619927]My ancestors once lived in the african area we now call Ethiopia. Better go back there and claim it as my own territory because it clearly belongs to me[/QUOTE] I am guessing you were driven out of the country by invaders, and then for the next few centuries you were treated like shit, kept in ghettoes, and hoped that you didn't get killed in a pogrom? Where do you suggest we put Jewish people then? They want to live in Israel, and I think it's a human right to live in whichever country you wish (as long as you don't hurt somebody, which is where all the problems atm are at, for a lot of people are hurting each other there). [editline]28th July 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Generic Monk;41619593]Israel is a country I'd like to see get wiped off the face of the map. Literally. Not blown up or anything, just politically and governmentally disbanded and replaced with a country worth a damn.[/QUOTE] What happens to the Jews and Arabs?
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41620106] What happens to the Jews and Arabs?[/QUOTE] they can live together in a secular nation
[QUOTE=Generic Monk;41620117]they can live together in a secular nation[/QUOTE] Right, because for a minute there I thought you were advocating something horrible.
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41620106]I am guessing you were driven out of the country by invaders, and then for the next few centuries you were treated like shit, kept in ghettoes, and hoped that you didn't get killed in a pogrom? Where do you suggest we put Jewish people then? They want to live in Israel, and I think it's a human right to live in whichever country you wish (as long as you don't hurt somebody, which is where all the problems atm are at).[/QUOTE] My point is not under what circumstances it happened, what I'm getting at is that it happened a LONG time ago and that jews shouldn't have any claim over this territory anymore. I mean, if we're talking about circumstances, then Mexicans have even more of a right to reclaim the lands they were driven from by americans than what jews have the right to resettle in these lands that now compose the israeli state, just to put out that example. I am not completely opposed to the idea of an israeli state, this is just ONE aspect of all the factors at play in the creation of the Israeli state, but what I really hate are the constant abuses of Israel against palestinians, their aggressiveness and constant illegal landgrabbing from what remains of palestinian territories, all this of course, allowed to happen because they can count with the support of the US.
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41620120]Right, because for a minute there I thought you were advocating something horrible.[/QUOTE] that actually sounds horrible now I look at it ok [b]DISCLAIMER I'M NOT ADVOCATING RELIGIOUS GENOCIDE! IT'S ONE OF MY LEAST FAVOURITE THINGS[/b]
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41619078]Except you said that Jews don't have ancestors in Judea, which is patently false. Most Jewish people have ancestors whom, at some stage in time, lived in Judea.[/QUOTE] In that case I can claim land In Mongolia because "at some state" my "ancestors" lived there. bitch please.
Well for the jews its a bit different. Palestine was their ancestral home. Thats where jewish culture, religion, arts were developed. It isn't simply where their ancestors lived, its much more than that. Its their entire identity.
[QUOTE=zombojoe;41620094]Jews were immigrating to Palestine [i]BEFORE[/i] WW2.[/QUOTE] A result of uncapped British immigration against the explicit wishes of the Arab rulers. The Jews only compromised of 5% of the population in the early 1900s. Go further back to 1877 and that number was a measly 3%, much less than the other ingenious groups residing there at the time. The argument that Jews had already existed in Palestine doesn't hold water, because even with contrived Jewish growth, the number was still significantly less than the other groups living at the time. [QUOTE=Emperorconor;41619208] 2. The British promised them a state, and after WW2, much work was done by many countries to establish a country where Jewish people could live without the threat of pogroms.[/QUOTE] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMahon–Hussein_Correspondence[/url] [editline]28th July 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperorconor;41619208]Remember that a lot of problems was caused by the first Arab-Israeli war, and that war in particular I blame for the dislocation of all the Jews and Arabs in the area.[/QUOTE] That map has nothing to do with the Arab-Israeli war. It's a map of the partition plan prior, displaying how Jews got proportionally more land then they actually owned in Palestine. He's highlighting why the Jews were so "generous" enough to accept it (though to be more accurate, the Zionist leadership internally voted unanimously against the partition plan because they thought they were religiously entitled to all of it, not entitled to half, but they reluctantly accepted with plants to conquer them alter), and why the "greedy" Arabs refused such a plan. The Arabs had to sacrifice so much land that they legitimately owned in Palestine. The Arabs called for a partition plan that would respect the rights of land-owners but to no avail, so they rejected it. Land was being stolen from them for the Jews.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.