• DEVELOPING: Another school shooting, Perry Hall High School in Maryland
    200 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Protocol7;37432940]well there's a balance people shouldn't have asinine gun control laws that ban arbitrary things (california), but things like cool-off laws are a good idea. i mean, there's not a lot of things you can control within reason so that gun control can't be antiquated to something like disallowing more than 6 cylinders on a car engine, or disallowing computers to have more than 4GB of RAM. these kinds of gun control don't solve anything. I'm not saying like, "if there are more people with guns, there will be less crime" but it's more that "gun control doesn't affect people" because we have been murdering one another for thousands upon thousands of years sure, guns make it easier to kill people, but in cases like these, it's just as easy to stab a kid as it is to shoot him. and even then, guns still exist and are floating around. implementing gun control now isn't going to solve anything[/QUOTE] Maryland has laws like CA does as well. Magazine capacity limits is one, but I can drive to PA or VA and buy a 100 round mag 100% legally. I agree those types of control do nothing. Mental health is a major issue in this country that needs to be dealt with, which is the cause of a HUGE percentage of shootings in the country.
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;37432971]Waiting periods are pretty unobtrusive to legitimate buyers but there's no evidence that they're actually effective.[/QUOTE] but on the same token anything you implement to stop guns from entering people's hands has no proven effect to reduce gun crime and nobody in this thread ever draw conclusions like "well it works in the UK!!!" yeah, cultural differences account for that, not gun control
[QUOTE=Liber;37432992]How about making guns completely illegal? Don't you think that would solve a few problems?[/QUOTE] Criminals don't follow laws you tool.
[QUOTE=Liber;37432992]How about making guns completely illegal? Don't you think that would solve a few problems?[/QUOTE] you know there's a pretty good that reason nobody has done that ever
[QUOTE=Xenomoose;37432360][URL]http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/weapons.cfm[/URL] I think this link from the US Department Of Justice website should be relevant to any gun control debate that comes up in the future. It's a series of graphs on homicide trends by weapon type from 1976-2005. For those who don't like reading, the amount of homicides committed using guns far outnumber the amount of homicides committed by using any other type of weapon. So yeah, if there were less guns the rate of homicides would drop dramatically. There's no data as to how many of these weapons were bought legally, but this is still an extremely convincing argument for those on the pro gun-control side of the debate. Well, it convinced me, at least. A little. I still think the number of guns obtained legally or illegally is an important factor to this debate. After all, if we do completely ban the sale of legal firearms and it turns out to not affect the number of firearms-related homicides, then what the fuck was the point?[/QUOTE] -In turn how much would other types of murder rise? -Do the people murdered in their own home have a right to sue the government for removing their right to protect themselves? What about their families when people are murdered using illegal weapons, while their loved ones surrendered their firearms? -Many Women and the elderly have very few options for self defense. -How much will other crime rates rise? -You failed to note the single most interesting factor on that chart: [img]http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/1524/weaponsfr.png[/img] See that spike in handguns? Starts in the late 80's. [url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Rtc.gif[/url] Shortly after the explosion of concealed carry permits in major population centers in the early to mid 90's, the rate drops severely again. So you basically posted evidence suggesting exactly the opposite of what you said. Additional armed citizens made the problem [I]better[/I], not worse.
[QUOTE=Liber;37432992]How about making guns completely illegal? Don't you think that would solve a few problems?[/QUOTE] How would it? Why not stop people from having murderous tendencies instead of taking away their tools? Banning guns gets rid of gun crime - tackle bigger problems like societal attitude and suddenly, gun crime, knife crime, domestic violence - everything is reduced. Gun crime is just a symptom of a larger problem and, if say, the US was a boat, gun crime is one hole that needs to be plugged, but really, just replace the entire floor of the boat and get rid of all leaks.
[QUOTE=Liber;37433049]Then the police isn't doing their job well enough.[/QUOTE] I could keep an illegal gun in my home and the police wouldn't be any the wiser - do you have any idea how a black market works? Unless the police illegally search my home, in which congratulations, there are so many problems with that situation.
[QUOTE=Liber;37433078]I'm not getting through to you am I. Going back to reddit.[/QUOTE] Because making guns illegal [I]doesn't solve the root problem.[/I] And that is people's tendencies to be violent, which is a social issue.
[QUOTE=Liber;37433131]but still, making guns illegal would HELP the process along. It's easy for you to say that the issue is cultural, but what is your solution then? Posters? Pamphlets? Brainwash? I suggest a possible solution, so should you.[/QUOTE] yeah but your possible solution makes the issue worse
[QUOTE=Protocol7;37433096]Because making guns illegal [I]doesn't solve the root problem.[/I] And that is people's tendencies to be violent, which is a social issue.[/QUOTE]You can't solve the "root" problem, not during our lifetime. We're violent, it's deep in our genes to be violent so that we can protect ourselves and survive. It's just that we're all different and any minor change in our nervous system can change the way we act. It's hardly a social issue. Social interactions can sway the condition one way or another, but we currently do not possess the technology to predict or prevent such behavior.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;37433140]You can't solve the "root" problem, not during our lifetime. We're violent, it's deep in our genes to be violent so that we can protect ourselves and survive. It's just that we're all different and any minor change in our nervous system can change the way we act. It's hardly a social issue. Social interactions can sway the condition one way or another, but we currently do not possess the technology to predict or prevent such behavior.[/QUOTE] ok imagine you have this nasty festering wound that's gotten infected you put a bandaid over it that's what gun control is
[QUOTE=Liber;37433131]but still, making guns illegal would HELP the process along. It's easy for you to say that the issue is cultural, but what is your solution then? Posters? Pamphlets? Brainwash? I suggest a possible solution, so should you.[/QUOTE] It would help. Yes, if you banned guns, there would be a noticeable decline in gun crime. But, if you introduced programs in school that encourage people to be friendly, or clean up areas that are rampant with violence, that would decrease [i]all[/I] violent crimes and not simply gun crime. I'm not pretending I know a solution, though, and neither should you. All I know is that, knowing people as well as I do, that banning guns doesn't solve a bigger problem.
[QUOTE=No_Excuses;37432705]You know what I love about gun arguments? US Americans are the only ones to claim that less guns in people's hands would not solve any problems. It's like a fat person blaming genetics for being overweight when everyone else is telling them to stop eating so much.[/QUOTE] If anything it makes more sense for Americans to argue for guns. The people who live their daily lives in a culture that accepts guns will know more about them than a person who only knows what they read on FP.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;37433140]You can't solve the "root" problem, not during our lifetime. We're violent, it's deep in our genes to be violent so that we can protect ourselves and survive. It's just that we're all different and any minor change in our nervous system can change the way we act. It's hardly a social issue. Social interactions can sway the condition one way or another, but we currently do not possess the technology to predict or prevent such behavior.[/QUOTE] Sure you can. The root societal problem is that we have a high poverty rate and terrible education. Both of which are solvable. Fix them and your crime rate across the board plummets.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;37433140]You can't solve the "root" problem, not during our lifetime. We're violent, it's deep in our genes to be violent so that we can protect ourselves and survive. It's just that we're all different and any minor change in our nervous system can change the way we act. It's hardly a social issue. Social interactions can sway the condition one way or another, but we currently do not possess the technology to predict or prevent such behavior.[/QUOTE] Who said anything about technological restrictions? I mean, certain countries aren't wild with gun crime and it's because their culture is different, not because they ban guns.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;37433170]It would help. Yes, if you banned guns, there would be a noticeable decline in gun crime. But, if you introduced programs in school that encourage people to be friendly, or clean up areas that are rampant with violence, that would decrease [i]all[/I] violent crimes and not simply gun crime. I'm not pretending I know a solution, though, and neither should you. All I know is that, knowing people as well as I do, that banning guns doesn't solve a bigger problem.[/QUOTE] Why not both then?
[QUOTE=Liber;37433131]but still, making guns illegal would HELP the process along. It's easy for you to say that the issue is cultural, but what is your solution then? Posters? Pamphlets? Brainwash? I suggest a possible solution, so should you.[/QUOTE] Here's a possible solution; mandate that everyone should be allowed to have guns. That way, when someone tries to cap someone else, everyone else will blast him. Problem solved. No more gun crime, just a lot of self defense. :v: No, guns will still be widely available even if they are illegal. Just look at drugs. They're illegal, and they're everywhere.
[QUOTE=GunFox;37433182]Sure you can. The root societal problem is that we have a high poverty rate and terrible education. Both of which are solvable. Fix them and your crime rate across the board plummets.[/QUOTE] Are we talking about crime rate or massacre shootings? Because these are different things. You don't need guns to commit crime.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;37433189]Why not both then?[/QUOTE] I think GunFox summed up what I was trying to say really. School sucks in the US. Catch potential offenders early.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;37433200]Are we talking about crime rate or massacre shootings? Because these are different things. You don't need guns to commit crime.[/QUOTE] Exactly. I seem to recall a well laid out plan in a previous thread where someone laid out how they could easily kill a shitload of people with a longbow.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;37433203]I think GunFox summed up what I was trying to say really. School sucks in the US. Catch potential offenders early.[/QUOTE] Public schools suck almost everywhere. Even in europe they're less than perfect. They don't get enough budget but you won't get any budget until you fix the "root" problem of greed and violence.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;37433096]Because making guns illegal [I]doesn't solve the root problem.[/I] And that is people's tendencies to be violent, which is a social issue.[/QUOTE] Yep. America needs to engage in a little root cause analysis.
Could've been a lot worse, apparently. The shooter, who had a shotgun, was grabbed by the school's guidance counselor right after shooting the other kid, and tried to keep shooting supposedly. Hell of a guidance counselor. [url]http://parkville.patch.com/articles/heroic-guidance-counselor-identified-through-social-media[/url]
[QUOTE=Atlascore;37433197]Are you fucking serious? People don't go around shooting each other because they have guns, they do it because they're violent psychopaths, taking away their tools isn't going to magically remove their urge to kill.[/QUOTE] Guns enable people to do things they could not normally do [without a gun]. A lot of random gun related crimes occur not because the shooter is a psychopath, but because they had a gun and used it out of anger or fear.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;37433200]Are we talking about crime rate or massacre shootings? Because these are different things. You don't need guns to commit crime.[/QUOTE] Massacre shootings are ridiculously unlikely to kill you. A horse is probably significantly more likely to kill you. A deer almost certainly is (not directly, but those fuckers love to stand in the road). No point in passing any law for a crime that is generally the result of some form of mental illness. You can't expect to stop crazy. Other crime rates you CAN affect. Poverty and education have strong ties to them. If we'd stop funding our military like crazy and fund education we could easily fix our education issue and likely fix our poverty issue pretty effectively as well. Particularly if we combined our education fix with universal health care and a retrofit of our welfare system. No need to upend society. Just do what we should have been doing from the start, fund education and set a poverty line that is actually realistic so we can recognize how fucked we are and fix it.
[QUOTE=No_Excuses;37433322]Guns enable people to do things they could not normally do [without a gun]. A lot of random gun related crimes not because anyone is a psychopath, but because they had a gun and used it out of anger or fear.[/QUOTE] People can also make IED's out of household products. Wanna ban those too?
[QUOTE=postal;37433314]Hell of a guidance counselor. [/QUOTE] Agreed. Something that is kind of off-topic, but I could help but notice, is that he probably damaged his eardrums a little bit by being that close to a firing shotgun without hearing protection.
[QUOTE=Kartoffel;37433348]Agreed. Something that is kind of off-topic, but I could help but notice, is that he probably damaged his eardrums a little bit by being that close to a firing shotgun without hearing protection.[/QUOTE] Twice won't do that much. I know from experience.
[QUOTE=faze;37433333]People can also make IED's out of household products. Wanna ban those too?[/QUOTE] We have to ban aluminum cans and iron oxide (rust) because people can make thermite out of them!
[QUOTE=faze;37433351]Twice won't do that much. I know from experience.[/QUOTE] Yeah, you're probably right. His ears are definitely going to be ringing though.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.