• Donald Trump Presidency would be a top 10 world threat
    322 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49960349] Many of the promises Trump has made, like deporting all illegal immigrants and bringing back torture, are impossible. They're illegal. His argument why they are possible? "I don't think they're illegal". This is the kind of deluded egomaniac you're dealing with.[/QUOTE] But can't you see why this could be a strategy to appeal to the extreme voters who vote in primaries? I don't think Trump is stupid, but I especially don't think he is so stupid to not believe that those kinds of promises would be impossible to carry out. I think he knows that very well, and it's a strategy to gain support from radical republicans in order to offset his more moderate views. And it seems to be working. [editline]18th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49960402]What makes you think Trump is a smart guy? His childish theatrics and tantrums? His continual demonstration of his complete and total ignorance of the government, the role of the president, and the laws of the country? His gullibility, his inability to directly address questions of policy, his history as a charlatan? Seriously, do you actually have a reason to believe he knows what he's doing?[/QUOTE] Do you think Trump is some bumbling idiot who has just happened across his business success and ability to gain support from so many people? Do you think Trump is mentally impaired and stupider than the average person? People like you seem to think that people who they don't support are idiots (like George W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, Ted Cruz, etc, who are all extremely smart people) [editline]18th March 2016[/editline] He has acted childish, and I'm not denying that. But maturity and intelligence are different
[QUOTE=OrkO;49960409]But can't you see why this could be a strategy to appeal to the extreme voters who vote in primaries? I don't think Trump is stupid, but I especially don't think he is so stupid to not believe that those kinds of promises would be impossible to carry out. I think he knows that very well, and it's a strategy to gain support from radical republicans in order to offset his more moderate views. And it seems to be working. [editline]18th March 2016[/editline] Do you think Trump is some bumbling idiot who has just happened across his business success and ability to gain support from so many people? Do you think Trump is mentally impaired and stupider than the average person? People like you seem to think that people who they don't support are idiots (like George W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, Ted Cruz, etc, who are all extremely smart people)[/QUOTE] We're talking about different kinds of smart here. Con men are smart when it comes to conning people. It takes talent, wit, and a good intuition to convince people to trust you and to get them on your side. That's what Trump has. That's what people like about him. He's confident, witty, and clever. But that doesn't mean he's smart when it comes to running a country. Just because he's good at convincing people he knows what he's talking about, doesn't mean he actually knows what he's talking about. People make this mistake all the fucking time, it's why there are so many sociopaths in business. People confuse confidence with competence and wit with knowledge. People don't want to believe that someone could con them so blatantly, and that's what lets the con men get away with it.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49960466]We're talking about different kinds of smart here. Con men are smart when it comes to conning people. It takes talent, wit, and a good intuition to convince people to trust you and to get them on your side. That's what Trump has. That's what people like about him. He's confident, witty, and clever. But that doesn't mean he's smart when it comes to running a country. Just because he's good at convincing people he knows what he's talking about, doesn't mean he actually knows what he's talking about. People make this mistake all the fucking time, it's why there are so many sociopaths in business. People confuse confidence with competence and wit with knowledge. People don't want to believe that someone could con them so blatantly, and that's what lets the con men get away with it.[/QUOTE] I totally agree with everything you've said here. I don't think Trump is competant enough in politics to run the country by himself. But I don't even think career politicians are competant enough for that. Fortunately the US is not an absolute monarchy though, and not only does the president have an entire bureaucracy around him, but also a huge number of advisors who do huge amounts of work. I think Trump, like pretty much any other president ever, would receive enormous support from his cabinet. No president has ever run the country by themself [editline]18th March 2016[/editline] I really think people overestimate the power presidents have.
[QUOTE=OrkO;49960491]I totally agree with everything you've said here. I don't think Trump is competant enough in politics to run the country by himself. But I don't even think career politicians are competant enough for that. Fortunately the US is not an absolute monarchy though, and not only does the president have an entire bureaucracy around him, but also a huge number of advisors who do huge amounts of work. I think Trump, like pretty much any other president ever, would receive enormous support from his cabinet. No president has ever run the country by themself [editline]18th March 2016[/editline] I really think people overestimate the power presidents have.[/QUOTE] You're right, in a world as complicated as the one we're living in, you need to defer to experts to get things done. No single person can figure everything out on their own. That's why someone like Trump, who believes they're an unparalleled genius, who repeatedly and insistently ignores the people who know what they're talking about when they disagree with him, who has demonstrated throughout their entire life a profoundly warped sense of reality, is so fucking dangerous. Again, all I'm doing is looking at his past behavior and assuming it won't change. Hopefully you're right, hopefully he's secretly a reasonable person who's been lying to the entire world for decades in preparation for this campaign. But I think we can agree that that isn't likely. And yes, he can't legally do most of the things he's stated he wants to do. But there are plenty of other things an egomaniac authoritarian could do to fuck things up.
[QUOTE=gman003-main;49959512]The Constitution says impeachment may occur for "Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors". While this is not defined in the Constitution, in English law this covers crimes that can only be committed by government officials - abuse of authority, misuse of government property, refusal to obey lawful order, perjury, negligence, and so on.[/QUOTE] If the president gets impeached, will the VP take over as president and if so for how long? It would be a bit weird if the VP served for a full term.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49960524]You're right, in a world as complicated as the one we're living in, you need to defer to experts to get things done. No single person can figure everything out on their own. That's why someone like Trump, who believes they're an unparalleled genius, who repeatedly and insistently ignores the people who know what they're talking about when they disagree with him, who has demonstrated throughout their entire life a profoundly warped sense of reality, is so fucking dangerous. Again, all I'm doing is looking at his past behavior and assuming it won't change. Hopefully you're right, hopefully he's secretly a reasonable person who's been lying to the entire world for decades in preparation for this campaign. But I think we can agree that that isn't likely. And yes, he can't legally do most of the things he's stated he wants to do. But there are plenty of other things an egomaniac authoritarian could do to fuck things up.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying Trump has been lying for decades in preparation for this campaign. I think, to the contrary, he is lying right now, and that he's not the kind of person who you'd think he is based off of how he acts during debates and at rallies. People who have worked close and personally with Trump resoundingly say he is extremely business-savvy and extremely smart, and, although he can be a bit crass, is generally a likable and respectable guy. I don't doubt in his business dealings that he has exhibited what you would call egotism, but I think it has worked well for him considering the pretty decent success he's had at numerous points (although occasional failures and bankruptcies as well). But I don't think a man like Trump has delusions that he can run the entire country by himself, or that if his cabinet or campaign managers were very strongly telling him not to do something that he would do it anyway. I guarantee you Trump has a desire to cement a good legacy, and I think he knows he can't do that by blindly parading into office and ignoring common sense and what has historically worked for other presidents in the past. [editline]18th March 2016[/editline] People seem to paint Trump like he's a cartoon villain. Like he is some sort of maniacal egotist just for the sake of being a maniacal egotist. He has motivations, just like everyone else. And I think he is probably self aware enough to realize that, if he were president of the United States, care would have to be taken to ensure that he wouldn't mess things up horribly. I don't think Trump is some bull in a china shop or some ticking time bomb ready to destroy our entire country. I don't think Trump would have ever been nearly as successful in life so far if he were honestly like that [editline]18th March 2016[/editline] I can't say enough, by the way, that I am not a Trump supporter. In the general election I would vote for Bernie or Hillary. But I just do not see Trump as an egomaniac bent on destroying our country
The things you use to justify your faith in Trump's competence, "other people think he's great", "everyone likes him", "he's successful, he must know what he's doing" none of these are reasons to believe he knows what he's doing these are the sorts of things that [I]every[/I] charlatan says to win people over Remember Bernie Madoff? You think he didn't have a lot of people who said he was smart and a good guy? You think he wasn't likable? You think he didn't appear to be successful? Look, let's just look over the traits of a narcissist. [quote] - An obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges - Problems in sustaining satisfying relationships - A lack of psychological awareness - Difficulty with empathy - Problems distinguishing the self from others - Hypersensitivity to any insults or imagined insults - Vulnerability to shame rather than guilt - Haughty body language - Flattery towards people who admire and affirm them (narcissistic supply) - Detesting those who do not admire them (narcissistic abuse) - Using other people without considering the cost of doing so - Pretending to be more important than they really are - Bragging (subtly but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements - Claiming to be an "expert" at many things - Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people - Denial of remorse and gratitude [/quote] Trump fucking exemplifies literally every single trait on the list. He is a [I]textbook[/I] narcissist. I'm not just throwing insults. I'm not saying he's out to destroy the country, I'm saying he's so thoroughly deluded and self absorbed that he is incapable handling the responsibility of presidency.
[QUOTE=maeZtro;49960788]If the president gets impeached, will the VP take over as president and if so for how long? It would be a bit weird if the VP served for a full term.[/QUOTE] Precedent is for the VP to take over in any case where the President is unable to serve.
[QUOTE=gman003-main;49960917]Precedent is for the VP to take over in any case where the President is unable to serve.[/QUOTE] So you would be stuck with the VP for a term. Isn't it possible to trigger a re-election somehow?
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49960905]The things you use to justify your faith in Trump's competence, "other people think he's great", "everyone likes him", "he's successful, he must know what he's doing" none of these are reasons to believe he knows what he's doing these are the sorts of things that [I]every[/I] charlatan says to win people over Remember Bernie Madoff? You think he didn't have a lot of people who said he was smart and a good guy? You think he wasn't likable? You think he didn't appear to be successful? Look, let's just look over the traits of a narcissist. Trump fucking exemplifies literally every single trait on the list. He is a [I]textbook[/I] narcissist. I'm not just throwing insults. I'm not saying he's out to destroy the country, I'm saying he's so thoroughly deluded and self absorbed that he is incapable handling the responsibility of presidency.[/QUOTE] Are you really comparing Bernie Madoff to Donald Trump? Look, even I think Donald Trump is likely a reasonably dishonest guy, but man that is a stretch. OF COURSE anyone who gets away with the kind of fraud Bernie Madoff got away with is going to seem like a smart, competent, good guy (how do you commit such large scale fraud without seeming that way?). But that doesn't mean that everybody who is seen as a smart, competent, good guy is at risk of being a Bernie Madoff type of fraudster. Obviously those people are pretty far in the minority. So what makes you so sure that that's the kind of person Trump is? Also half of the things on that list you provided are things which there is no way you have real evidence of
[QUOTE=maeZtro;49960954]So you would be stuck with the VP for a term. Isn't it possible to trigger a re-election somehow?[/QUOTE] Not with the current constitution, no. We once had a president die less than a month into office, and were stuck with his VP for 3.9 years. Even if the VP croaks, there's a chain of replacements going all the way down to the Secretary of Education and beyond. Which actually means we can end up with a President who was never elected [I]at all, to any office[/I]. This actually happened once, sort of - the Vice President can be replaced by appointment, like when VP Spiro Agnew resigned. Gerald Ford was nominated, and approved by the Senate, to replace him as VP... and then President Nixon resigned, making Ford the only President to not be elected to either President or Vice President. (He was House Minority Leader, elected to the House of Representatives for several decades, so he wasn't [I]completely[/I] unelected... but he was never nationally elected to any position) To be fair, America was the first modern stab at democracy, and they didn't think elections could be held that frequently. It would probably be a good idea, I for one could get behind a no-confidence system and more frequent elections, but America is #1 at not using good ideas (see: proportional representation, the metric system).
[QUOTE=OrkO;49961001]Are you really comparing Bernie Madoff to Donald Trump? Look, even I think Donald Trump is likely a reasonably dishonest guy, but man that is a stretch. OF COURSE anyone who gets away with the kind of fraud Bernie Madoff got away with is going to seem like a smart, competent, good guy. But that doesn't mean that everybody who is seen as a smart, competent, good guy is at risk of being a Bernie Madoff type of fraudster. Obviously those people are pretty far in the minority. So what makes you so sure that that's the kind of person Trump is? Also half of the things on that list you provided are things which there is no way you have real evidence of[/QUOTE] My point isn't that they're the same person. My point is that "appearing" smart and having people who call you smart does not actually make you smart. Really? Trump doesn't claim to be expert on things he couldn't possibly know? He doesn't make everything about him and how great he is? He doesn't exaggerate his importance, or his accomplishments? He doesn't show a complete lack of empathy, either through petty insults or outright threats? He doesn't show a lack of remorse or gratitude? He doesn't flatter those who admire him and detest those who don't? He isn't overly sensitive to criticism or perceived slights, he isn't incapable of acknowledging that others might see things he doesn't, even when he's demonstrated to be wrong? He isn't haughty or vain? When Mitt Romney criticized Trump Steaks, he bought a bunch of steaks from a wholesaler to convince his voter base that Trump Steaks still exist. He gets in fights constantly with people who insult his appearance. He's threatened to sue people for insulting him on multiple occasions. He's claimed his book is the best book since the bible on several occasions. He said he'd be the most "presidential" president since Lincoln. He said his most important advisor was [I]his own brain.[/I] He values himself at 10 billion dollars, 5 billion of which is the value of his NAME. He has repeatedly stated that, while he hasn't bothered to yet, if he tried he could learn all of the "issues" better than anyone else in the space of a day. And despite all that, he doesn't believe climate change is real, he wants to "close up" the internet, and he was a major proponent of the birther movement. How is this not the very definition of unwarranted self importance? He's threatened to extort Mexico, South Korea and Japan. He's threatened to bully corporations with crushing taxes if they don't do as he wishes. He's threatened China with trade warfare, he's threatened illegal immigrants with illegal deportation, he's threatened enemy combatants with torture, and he's threatened the families of terrorists with collective punishment in the form of murder. And on top of that, he wants to bar 1.2 billion people from entering the country on the basis of religion, including diplomats and heads of state. He calls his competition losers and wastes, he insults people based on their appearance, beliefs, speech, and sex. Despite being a draft dodging rich kid, he believes he understands what it's like in the military because he went to a military themed private school. How is that not the definition of "difficulty with feeling empathy" and "unable to see the world from others' perspectives"? I'm not just throwing shit out there. This isn't a case of "well he kind fits those criteria". He is DEFINED by those criteria.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49961255]My point isn't that they're the same person. My point is that "appearing" smart and having people who call you smart does not actually make you smart. Really? Trump doesn't claim to be expert on things he couldn't possibly know? He doesn't make everything about him and how great he is? He doesn't exaggerate his importance, or his accomplishments? He doesn't show a complete lack of empathy, either through petty insults or outright threats? He doesn't show a lack of remorse or gratitude? He doesn't flatter those who admire him and detest those who don't? He isn't overly sensitive to criticism or perceived slights, he isn't incapable of acknowledging that others might see things he doesn't, even when he's demonstrated to be wrong? He isn't haughty or vain? When Mitt Romney criticized Trump Steaks, he bought a bunch of steaks from a wholesaler to convince his voter base that Trump Steaks still exist. He gets in fights constantly with people who insult his appearance. He's threatened to sue people for insulting him on multiple occasions. He's claimed his book is the best book since the bible on several occasions. He said he'd be the most "presidential" president since Lincoln. He said his most important advisor was [I]his own brain.[/I] He values himself at 10 billion dollars, 5 billion of which is the value of his NAME. He has repeatedly stated that, while he hasn't bothered to yet, if he tried he could learn all of the "issues" better than anyone else in the space of a day. And despite all that, he doesn't believe climate change is real, he wants to "close up" the internet, and he was a major proponent of the birther movement. How is this not the very definition of unwarranted self importance? He's threatened to extort Mexico, South Korea and Japan. He's threatened to bully corporations with crushing taxes if they don't do as he wishes. He's threatened China with trade warfare, he's threatened illegal immigrants with illegal deportation, he's threatened enemy combatants with torture, and he's threatened the families of terrorists with collective punishment in the form of murder. And on top of that, he wants to bar 1.2 billion people from entering the country on the basis of religion, including diplomats and heads of state. He calls his competition losers and wastes, he insults people based on their appearance, beliefs, speech, and sex. Despite being a draft dodging rich kid, he believes he understands what it's like in the military because he went to a military themed private school. How is that not the definition of "difficulty with feeling empathy" and "unable to see the world from others' perspectives"? I'm not just throwing shit out there. This isn't a case of "well he kind fits those criteria". He is DEFINED by those criteria.[/QUOTE] [quote] [I]- An obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges[/I] [B]How does he fit this more than any other candidate?[/B] [I]- Problems in sustaining satisfying relationships[/I] [B]How would you even know if this is true or not?[/B] [I]- A lack of psychological awareness[/I] [B]How would you know if this is true either?[/B] [I]- Difficulty with empathy[/I][B] Again, how would you know this? Insulting and threatening people do not necessitate lack of empathy. I have empathy and I have done both of those things before, and so have you.[/B] [I]- Problems distinguishing the self from others[/I] [B]How would you know this?[/B] [I]- Hypersensitivity to any insults or imagined insults[/I] [B]Maybe, but then again, would you not expect any politician to react to a perceived insult in, say, a debate?[/B] [I]- Vulnerability to shame rather than guilt[/I] [B]When has he displayed this?[/B] [I]- Haughty body language[/I] [B]Maybe[/B] [I]- Flattery towards people who admire and affirm them (narcissistic supply)[/I] [B]Maybe[/B] [I]- Detesting those who do not admire them (narcissistic abuse)[/I] [B]Maybe[/B] [I]- Using other people without considering the cost of doing so[/I] [B]Examples?[/B] [I]- Pretending to be more important than they really are[/I] [B]You wrote a bit about this above[/B] [I]- Bragging (subtly but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements[/I] [B]You also wrote about this[/B] [I]- Claiming to be an "expert" at many things[/I] [B]Maybe[/B] [I]- Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people[/I][B] How would you know this[/B] [I]- Denial of remorse and gratitude[/I][B] How would you know this[/B] [/quote] I think unless you are a psychiatrist who has closely analyzed Trump, you cannot make honest statements one way or the other about the majority of the things on these lists. You have not known Trump personally. The wikipedia article that you got this list from is quoting an academic psychological journal. These points are not meant to be broadly applied to public figures with regard to how they act in the limelight, they are meant to be applied upon close analysis of a patient with regard to how they act in their own personal lives. All I know is Trump sells himself. He does display his accomplishments, he talks about his net worth, the values of his companies and his products, and he exudes extreme confidence in himself and his actions. But this is an election. He is [I]selling himself[/I], which is exactly what everybody else has done. The difference is, everybody else does not have large businesses and products which they have very haughtily discussed and defended and bragged about, but political careers instead. "When I occupied x political position, I did y and z very well!!" is hardly different than "I built x company, and it is very good! We produce the best y and z there is!" etc. Aside from that, you have listed positions that he has that you don't agree with. Almost none of this defines a narcissist, but they easily define the kind of person running for office, and they define the kind of person who is trying to sell themself to a crowd. You'd be hard pressed to find politicians whose traits you [I]can't[/I] twist into fitting the bullet points on that list. Also, out of curiosity, could you post your source for Trump saying he knows what it's like in the military because he went to a military private school?
[QUOTE=OrkO;49961348]I think unless you are a psychiatrist who has closely analyzed Trump, you cannot make honest statements one way or the other about the majority of the things on these lists. You have not known Trump personally. The wikipedia article that you got this list from is quoting an academic psychological journal. These points are not meant to be broadly applied to public figures with regard to how they act in the limelight, they are meant to be applied upon close analysis of a patient with regard to how they act in their own personal lives. All I know is Trump sells himself. He does display his accomplishments, he talks about his net worth, the values of his companies and his products, and he exudes extreme confidence in himself and his actions. But this is an election. He is [I]selling himself[/I], which is exactly what everybody else has done. The difference is, everybody else does not have large businesses and products which they have very haughtily discussed and defended and bragged about, but political careers instead. "When I occupied x political position, I did y and z very well!!" is hardly different than "I built x company, and it is very good! We produce the best y and z there is!" etc. Aside from that, you have listed positions that he has that you don't agree with. Almost none of this defines a narcissist, but they easily define the kind of person running for office, and they define the kind of person who is trying to sell themself to a crowd. You'd be hard pressed to find politicians whose traits you [I]can't[/I] twist into fitting the bullet points on that list. Also, out of curiosity, could you post your source for Trump saying he knows what it's like in the military because he went to a military private school?[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/09/us/politics/donald-trump-likens-his-schooling-to-military-service-in-book.html?_r=1[/url] [quote]Donald J. Trump, who received draft deferments through much of the Vietnam War, told the author of a coming biography that he nevertheless “always felt that I was in the military” because of his education at a military-themed boarding school. Mr. Trump said his experience at the New York Military Academy, an expensive prep school where his parents had sent him to correct poor behavior, gave him “more training militarily than a lot of the guys that go into the military.”[/quote] in regards to his net worth [url]http://247wallst.com/media/2016/01/30/is-donald-trump-worth-3-billion-or-10-billion/[/url] [quote]Q. Let me just understand that a little bit. Let’s talk about net worth for a second. You said that the net worth goes up and down based upon your own feelings? A. Yes, even my own feelings, as to where the world is, where the world is going, and that can change rapidly from day to day. Then you have a September 11th, and you don’t feel so good about yourself and you don’t feel so good about the world and you don’t feel so good about New York City. Then you have a year later, and the city is as hot as a pistol. Even months after that it was a different feeling. So yeah, even my own feelings affect my value to myself.[/quote] how can you not see that this man is fucking full of hot air
As someone that was in the military, that statement infuriates me to no end. Some fucking pencil-pushing, tangerine-colored, shit-flinging, reptilian dingleberry on the arse-hair of a daddy's boy thinks he had it hard because he went to a "Military themed boarding school." Get fucking real you cock-sleeve.
oh, and by the way, there's a difference between bragging about your water company and buying water from someone, paying them to put your name on it, and then claiming that you run a water company If Trump was just a braggart, that'd be one thing, but he's a bald faced charlatan who knowingly and repeatedly lies about his own accomplishments to inflate his public image in the eyes of the gullible.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49961418][url]http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/09/us/politics/donald-trump-likens-his-schooling-to-military-service-in-book.html?_r=1[/url] in regards to his net worth [url]http://247wallst.com/media/2016/01/30/is-donald-trump-worth-3-billion-or-10-billion/[/url] how can you not see that this man is fucking full of hot air[/QUOTE] Because even in an article focused solely on bashing Trump, they have still thrown in [quote] Mr. Trump’s reputation for self-indulgence is well known (the helicopters, the planes, the penthouses). But at times, his biographer found, he has displayed unexpected generosity. When the wife of his chauffeur had a baby, Mr. Trump surprised them with a car seat delivered to the hospital. When a 10-year-old fan of “The Apprentice” asked the developer to utter the catchphrase “you’re fired” to him on the set of the show, Mr. Trump gave the boy a check for several thousand dollars and said, “Go have the time of your life.” [/quote] I just don't think he is the villain that so many people make him out to be. Anyway, his statement on feeling like he was in the military kind of reminds me of the controversy over Obama failing to salute as he disembarked airforce one because he had coffee in his hand, and the supposed immense disrespect that he displayed. If you look at anybody under a microscope you will find these things, and it seems that the media is having a field day tearing apart both Trump and Hillary, being that they are both heavily criticized front-runners. [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49961475]oh, and by the way, there's a difference between bragging about your water company and buying water from someone, paying them to put your name on it, and then claiming that you run a water company If Trump was just a braggart, that'd be one thing, but he's a bald faced charlatan who knowingly and repeatedly lies about his own accomplishments to inflate his public image in the eyes of the gullible.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry but is that not exactly what a water company is? What, are you supposed to combine the hydrogen and oxygen yourself? What is your point here?
[QUOTE=OrkO;49961661]Because even in an article focused solely on bashing Trump, they have still thrown in I just don't think he is the villain that so many people make him out to be. Anyway, his statement on feeling like he was in the military kind of reminds me of the controversy ove[B]r Obama failing to salute as he disembarked airforce one because he had coffee in his hand, and the supposed immense disrespect that he displayed.[/B] If you look at anybody under a microscope you will find these things, and it seems that the media is having a field day tearing apart both Trump and Hillary, being that they are both heavily criticized front-runners. [/QUOTE] Except it's not. One is something that can easily be forgotten in a moment of absentmindedness. The other is a brazen bold-faced lie told by a parasitic toupee controlling an orangutan.
[QUOTE=OrkO;49961661]Because even in an article focused solely on bashing Trump, they have still thrown in I just don't think he is the villain that so many people make him out to be. Anyway, his statement on feeling like he was in the military kind of reminds me of the controversy over Obama failing to salute as he disembarked airforce one because he had coffee in his hand, and the supposed immense disrespect that he displayed. If you look at anybody under a microscope you will find these things, and it seems that the media is having a field day tearing apart both Trump and Hillary, being that they are both heavily criticized front-runners. I'm sorry but is that not exactly what a water company is? What, are you supposed to combine the hydrogen and oxygen yourself? What is your point here?[/QUOTE] How is not saluting the same as saying "I have more military training than some people in the military because I went to private school"? Do you think those sound comparable? A water company is a company that bottles and sells water. Buying water from a water company and then paying them to put your name on it does not mean you own a water company. Trump claimed he owned a water company. [editline]19th March 2016[/editline] [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=su0YbKx6Ew8[/media] 8:30-Talks about the water company he doesn't have. They're just bottles he paid to have his label put on. 8:45-Talks about the "Trump Steaks", which for some reason are marked "Bush Brothers". Probably because [I]Trump Steaks were a terrible idea and aren't sold anymore.[/I] 9:01-Passes off a brochure from one of his hotels as the defunct "Trump Magazine". I also like how instead of talking about his failed line of vodka he just talks about how great his winery is instead. Not even getting into the clusterfuck that is "Trump University". Again, he's just deflecting from his failures and lying about his successes. He's a fucking fraud.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49961676]How is not saluting the same as saying "I have more military training than some people in the military because I went to private school"? Do you think those sound comparable?[/quote] Both are perceived as blatant insults to the military. Obama failing to salute is seen that way because he is the leader of the entire US military and he failed to perform the basic duty and token of respect of saluting military men, and Trump because his quote undermines the difficulty of serving in the military. The thing is, though, that both are examples of media scrutiny of people in the spotlight, and you'll find examples of that for anybody that the public eye is focused strongly enough upon. How about Hillary's apparent blatant insult and bold faced lie to those who suffered from AIDS by saying that the Reagans championed the fight against the disease? I've even seen articles criticizing the language Bernie Sanders has used, and he is probably the most reserved candidate with the most inert speech of them all. Obama's failure to salute is an insult to all members of the military, Trump's quote is an insult to all members of the military, Hillary's quote is an insult to all who have suffered from or were affected by AIDS - or maybe not, depending on your point of view. But this is somewhat aside from the point that a Trump presidency would be a disaster. How does this quote show that he would be a poor leader? How do quotes supporting Trump's tendency to speak highly of himself necessitate that he would be a poor leader and would ruin our country? I am still failing to piece that together. A water company is a company that bottles and sells water. Buying water from a water company and then paying them to put your name on it does not mean you own a water company. Trump claimed he owned a water company.[/QUOTE] And how is it not a water company? How is that different than purchasing water municipally and then bottling it and selling it? He is retailing pre-bottled water, which is about as valid as any company that retails anything (which is a lot of companies)
[QUOTE=OrkO;49961802]Both are perceived as blatant insults to the military. Obama failing to salute is seen that way because he is the leader of the entire US military and he failed to perform the basic duty and token of respect of saluting military men, and Trump because his quote undermines the difficulty of serving in the military. The thing is, though, that both are examples of media scrutiny of people in the spotlight, and you'll find examples of that for anybody that the public eye is focused strongly enough upon. How about Hillary's apparent blatant insult and bold faced lie to those who suffered from AIDS by saying that the Reagans championed the fight against the disease? I've even seen articles criticizing the language Bernie Sanders has used, and he is probably the most reserved candidate with the most inert speech of them all. Obama's failure to salute is an insult to all members of the military, Trump's quote is an insult to all members of the military, Hillary's quote is an insult to all who have suffered from or were affected by AIDS - or maybe not, depending on your point of view. But this is somewhat aside from the point that a Trump presidency would be a disaster. How does this quote show that he would be a poor leader? How do quotes supporting Trump's tendency to speak highly of himself necessitate that he would be a poor leader and would ruin our country? I am still failing to piece that together. [quote]A water company is a company that bottles and sells water. Buying water from a water company and then paying them to put your name on it does not mean you own a water company. Trump claimed he owned a water company.[/QUOTE] And how is it not a water company? How is that different than purchasing water municipally and then bottling it and selling it? He is retailing pre-bottled water, which is about as valid as any company that retails anything (which is a lot of companies)[/QUOTE] do you think that someone who dodged the draft and went to private school has more military training than someone in the military? If I buy a hat from a hat manufacturer, I do not own a hat manufacturer. If I buy a cow from a farm, I do not own a farm. If I buy bottles of water from a water company, I do not own a water company. Do you understand?
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49961676] [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=su0YbKx6Ew8[/media] 8:30-Talks about the water company he doesn't have. They're just bottles he paid to have his label put on. 8:45-Talks about the "Trump Steaks", which for some reason are marked "Bush Brothers". Probably because [I]Trump Steaks were a terrible idea and aren't sold anymore.[/I] 9:01-Passes off a brochure from one of his hotels as the defunct "Trump Magazine". I also like how instead of talking about his failed line of vodka he just talks about how great his winery is instead. Not even getting into the clusterfuck that is "Trump University". Again, he's just deflecting from his failures and lying about his successes. He's a fucking fraud.[/QUOTE] How is a politician supposed to sell themself, in your eyes? Of course he's not talking about his failures! Why would he? How is that a strategy to garner votes, which is what he is trying to do? Of course he is going to talk about his successes, even to the point that he overplays or exaggerates them! Every candidate is doing that, and you are looking at ultra specific examples of Trump doing that and painting him as a horrible person for it. Why don't you do the same thing to Hillary, or Kasich, or Ben Carson, or Rubio? The person probably least guilty of this is Sanders, and he has hardly the slightest shot at securing the democratic nomination at all. I think your criticism would be more aptly aimed at everybody running for office right now, rather than a specific person. Many of the things you have bought up are not just problems with Trump, but with many politicians, both running in the primaries and not. [editline]19th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49961820]do you think that someone who dodged the draft and went to private school has more military training than someone in the military?[/quote] No, I don't. I also think that quote could be seen as disrespectful. I'm not personally offended at all by it though, nor am I offended by what Obama did. In fact, I would say I am most concerned about what Hillary said concerning the Reagans and AIDS. Also, I don't know if bringing up repeatedly that he dodged the draft is supposed to shame him for not going to war or something, but "draft dodger" is not a legal term. Trump did nothing illegal, and there is no proof that he was motivated by avoiding going to war. The only way to prove that wrong would be to know Trump’s motivations at the time. That is not checkable and that claim is more a moral judgment than a statement of fact. [quote] If I buy a hat from a hat manufacturer, I do not own a hat manufacturer. If I buy a cow from a farm, I do not own a farm. If I buy bottles of water from a water company, I do not own a water company. Do you understand?[/QUOTE] No, but if you buy a hat from a hat manufacturer and open up a store to sell those hats, you arguably own a hat company, and most certainly own a hat retail company. It is exactly the same with water. A water retail company is still a company. Many large retail stores that have their own brands of food and beverages do not own the means of producing them, but buy them wholesale and rebrand them and sell them for profit, i.e. the definition of retailing them. Why debate the semantics of what defines a water company? You are really grasping at straws there, that is hardly a bold faced lie.
[QUOTE=OrkO;49961831]How is a politician supposed to sell themself, in your eyes? Of course he's not talking about his failures! Why would he? How is that a strategy to garner votes, which is what he is trying to do? Of course he is going to talk about his successes, even to the point that he overplays or exaggerates them! Every candidate is doing that, and you are looking at ultra specific examples of Trump doing that and painting him as a horrible person for it. Why don't you do the same thing to Hillary, or Kasich, or Ben Carson, or Rubio? The person probably least guilty of this is Sanders, and he has hardly the slightest shot at securing the democratic nomination at all. I think your criticism would be more aptly aimed at everybody running for office right now, rather than a specific person. Many of the things you have bought up are not just problems with Trump, but with many politicians, both running in the primaries and not.[/QUOTE] it is a matter of scale. there is a difference between a politician who changes their positions to suit what is popular and a con man passing off props as evidence of businesses he doesn't have to convince people he's more successful than he actually is Selling yourself is a necessary part of business and campaigning. Selling yourself based on outright lies is called being a fraud. [editline]19th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=OrkO;49961831]No, I don't. I also think that quote could be seen as disrespectful. I'm not personally offended at all by it though, nor am I offended by what Obama did. In fact, I would say I am most concerned about what Hillary said concerning the Reagans and AIDS. Also, I don't know if bringing up repeatedly that he dodged the draft is supposed to shame him for not going to war or something, but "draft dodger" is not a legal term. Trump did nothing illegal, and there is no proof that he was motivated by avoiding going to war. The only way to prove that wrong would be to know Trump’s motivations at the time. That is not checkable and that claim is more a moral judgment than a statement of fact.[/quote] My entire point is that he's delusional. YOU JUST AGREED that he's delusional. [quote]No, but if you buy a hat from a hat manufacturer and open up a store to sell those hats, you arguably own a hat company, and most certainly own a hat retail company. It is exactly the same with water. A water retail company is still a company. Many large retail stores that have their own brands of food and beverages do not own the means of producing them, but buy them wholesale and rebrand them and sell them for profit, i.e. the definition of retailing them.[/QUOTE] He does not own a water retail company. He buys bottles of water from the Village Springs Corporation, pays to have his label put on them, and sells them in his resorts and casinos. That is not owning a water company which is [I]precisely[/I] what he claimed. There really isn't any wiggle room here.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49961880]it is a matter of scale. there is a difference between a politician who changes their positions to suit what is popular and a con man passing off props as evidence of businesses he doesn't have to convince people he's more successful than he actually is Selling yourself is a necessary part of business and campaigning. Selling yourself based on outright lies is called being a fraud.[/QUOTE] Donald Trump is not a fraud though. It's not as though he is homeless and has never known success and has lied about every bit of his path to where he is now. He is still an extraordinarily successful businessman, has been lauded by people he has worked with and people he has had close personal relationships with. Donald Trump is objectively a pretty successful individual, whether you choose to see that or not. That said, it is true that he has had his fair share of failures. He has also been associated with people that have disliked or even despised him. He has also overstated some of his successes and understated some of his failures. But that does not make him a fraud. It makes him a candidate who is selling himself. He is no con man, and he is no Bernie Madoff. Comparisons like that are almost as ridiculous as those who compare him to Hitler. I definitely do not support him, but honestly, he is not satan, and he is not trying to seize a dictatorship. He is just a guy trying to sell himself and to win office. It's a competition like any others, and he is arguably playing by the same rules on the same field as Hillary. Many of the arguments you have made against him you could also make against her as well. Which is why I really don't understand why all of the hate is directed specifically at him.
[QUOTE=OrkO;49961933]Donald Trump is not a fraud though. It's not as though he is homeless and has never known success and has lied about every bit of his path to where he is now. He is still an extraordinarily successful businessman, has been lauded by people he has worked with and people he has had close personal relationships with. Donald Trump is objectively a pretty successful individual, whether you choose to see that or not. That said, it is true that he has had his fair share of failures. He has also been associated with people that have disliked or even despised him. He has also overstated some of his successes and understated some of his failures. But that does not make him a fraud. It makes him a candidate who is selling himself. He is no con man, and he is no Bernie Madoff. Comparisons like that are almost as ridiculous as those who compare him to Hitler. I definitely do not support him, but honestly, he is not satan, and he is not trying to seize a dictatorship. He is just a guy trying to sell himself and to win office. It's a competition like any others, and he is arguably playing by the same rules on the same field as Hillary. Many of the arguments you have made against him you could also make against her as well. Which is why I really don't understand why all of the hate is directed specifically at him.[/QUOTE] Let's go back in time before the Madoff scam was unveiled, shall we? [quote]Bernie Madoff is not a fraud though. It's not as though he is homeless and has never known success and has lied about every bit of his path to where he is now. He is still an extraordinarily successful businessman, has been lauded by people he has worked with and people he has had close personal relationships with. Bernie Madoff is objectively a pretty successful individual, whether you choose to see that or not. That said, it is true that he has had his fair share of failures. He has also been associated with people that have disliked or even despised him. He has also overstated some of his successes and understated some of his failures. But that does not make him a fraud. It makes him a businessman who is selling himself. He is no con man, and he is no Charles Ponzi. Comparisons like that are almost as ridiculous as those who compare him to Hitler.[/quote] tell me why this argument doesn't work
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49961880] My entire point is that he's delusional. YOU JUST AGREED that he's delusional. He does not own a water retail company. He buys bottles of water from the Village Springs Corporation, pays to have his label put on them, and sells them in his resorts and casinos. That is not owning a water company which is [I]precisely[/I] what he claimed. There really isn't any wiggle room here.[/QUOTE] First, I did not agree that he is delusional. I said that I disagree with his quote. Saying that I agreed that he is delusional is as much of a lie as any of the lies you have been criticizing Trump for this entire time. Also, Village Springs buys their water from a municipal tap, buys the bottles from a manufacturer, and just pays to have their labels put on it. So are they not a water company?. Does a true water company need to own the means of producing every aspect of the water, from the bottles to the labels to the water itself? Why are we even arguing this, this has nothing to do with anything. Calling that a water company is a stretching of the truth, and that is all. If he said he owned a water bottling company, he'd be lying. Or if he said he owned a company that produced water bottles. Or that he owned a water utility. But he did not say any of those things [editline]19th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49961948]Let's go back in time before the Madoff scam was unveiled, shall we? tell me why this argument doesn't work[/QUOTE] Bernie Madoff was not [I]always[/I] a fraud (although there's debate on whether his operation was ever legitimate at all). Bernie Madoff committed the crime of fraud and became one. Before he became involved with his Ponzi scheme and broke the law for decades, he was not a fraud. Trump has not acquired vast wealth by breaking the law, and is therefore not a fraud. These are two entirely different things. My point is that that argument doesn't work because Bernie Madoff's 'career' was defined by fraudulent activities and breaking the law, which is what makes him a fraud. That is not the case for Trump at all.
[QUOTE=OrkO;49961975]First, I did not agree that he is delusional. I said that I disagree with his quote. Saying that I agreed that he is delusional is as much of a lie as any of the lies you have been criticizing Trump for this entire time. Also, Village Springs buys their water from a municipal tap, buys the bottles from a manufacturer, and just pays to have their labels put on it. So are they not a water company?. Does a true water company need to own the means of producing every aspect of the water, from the bottles to the labels to the water itself? Why are we even arguing this, this has nothing to do with anything. Calling that a water company is a stretching of the truth, and that is all. If he said he owned a water bottling company, he'd be lying. Or if he said he owned a company that produced water bottles. Or that he owned a water utility. But he did not say any of those things[/QUOTE] [quote]delusional 1. having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions:[/quote] you think his opinion that he is better trained militarily than actual members of the military is false ergo you think he is delusional he said he owned a fucking water company he does not own any company that is even vaguely related to the bottling, purification, labeling, or transporting of water ergo the statement "I own a water company" is a lie You say I'm getting caught up on minor things, but you're incapable of accepting demonstrable truths. Yeah, I'm going to get caught up on saying the earth is round if you insist that it's square. [editline]19th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=OrkO;49961975]Bernie Madoff was not [I]always[/I] a fraud. Bernie Madoff committed the crime of fraud and became one. Before he became involved with his Ponzi scheme and broke the law for decades, he was not a fraud. Trump has not acquired vast wealth by breaking the law, and is therefore not a fraud. These are two entirely different things.[/QUOTE] Let me be as clear as I can be. You say that Trump is trustworthy because he's successful and people like him. The same argument could have been made for Bernie Madoff. The conclusion that we draw through this, via basic logical inferral, is that if a successful, liked businessman can be a fraud, being successful and liked does not make someone trustworthy. Therefor, if someone has a clearly identifiable pattern of making demonstrably false claims throughout the entirety of their life and career, "he's successful and liked" does nothing to dispel the claim that he is untrustworthy.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49962006]you think his opinion that he is better trained militarily than actual members of the military is false ergo you think he is delusional he said he owned a fucking water company he does not own any company that is even vaguely related to the bottling, purification, labeling, or transporting of water ergo the statement "I own a water company" is a lie You say I'm getting caught up on minor things, but you're incapable of accepting demonstrable truths. Yeah, I'm going to get caught up on saying the earth is round if you insist that it's square.[/QUOTE] Holding a single false or unrealistic belief does not make a person delusional. That is ridiculous. Use of the word delusional generally implies mental illness anyway, and I am sure you know that. I disagree with him there, but I don't think he is delusional. I disagree with a lot of your arguments so far and I do not think you are delusional. That is a ridiculous assertion. You cannot tell me what I think he is based on the fact that I disagree with a single thing he has said. Also, he owns a company (The Trump Organization LLC) and was in charge of a brand (Trump Ice) and signed agreements to have water distributed to national grocery chains and specialty food stores, although it is not publicly available anymore. [quote]Mountain Spring Waters of America, LLC, and The Trump Organization agreed to terms that will make Mountain Spring Waters of America the primary distributor in the New York and New Jersey area for the entire Trump Ice spring water product line through 2006. This is a milestone achievement for Mountain Spring Waters of America, as it teams up with one of the biggest brands in America called "Trump," according to CEO & President Mike Petrosino. Mike also added that Trump Ice was made popular on the hit TV show "The Apprentice," but many people do not realize that this is a brand that competes in the water category no different than Poland Spring, Aquafina, Dasani, or Evian, and the responsibility of Mountain Spring Waters of America is to market, promote and distribute Trump Ice, from 12-oz. personal bottles to five-gallon bottles you put on water coolers.[/quote] Upon further investigation, it does seem that it would be more accurate to say that he owned a water brand rather than a company. Nonetheless, this argument is such a footnote that I could not find a single news source either confirming or refuting it as I searched before, and had to find this article from 2005 which said anything about the agreement whatsoever. And, I absolutely did [I]not[/I] say that Trump is trustworthy because he is successful and people like him. Please quote me in the exact place where I said that, because I am confident that I never said anything like that. All I said was that the fact that he is successful and people like him lends evidence to the fact that he may not be a horrible person or a horrible leader. Bernie Madoff, while "successful" and respected, was a fraud because he [B]committed fraud[/B]. In fact, he wasn't successful at all, because his success was based on fraud, unlike Trump. How is that difficult to understand? Trump has not committed fraud! You cannot make the same arguments about both of them because one of them committed fraud and one didn't! Furthermore, the vast majority of successful, liked businessmen are not convicted fraudsters. So your argument saying "well, here's an example of one successful well-liked guy who was a fraud, so Trump could a fraud too! Therefore he would make a horrible president!" is ridiculous. And then you have said that Trump has a pattern of making demonstrably false claims throughout the entirety of his career, where you have only provided examples of things he has said during these presidential primaries. Furthermore, you have done nothing to respond to how exactly anything Trump has done is worse than anybody else running for the Republican or Democratic nomination right now, namely Hillary Clinton. Please tell me how Trump is anymore of a lying, conniving fraud than Hillary is.
[QUOTE=OrkO;49962211]Holding a single false or unrealistic belief does not make a person delusional. That is ridiculous. Use of the word delusional generally implies mental illness anyway, and I am sure you know that. I disagree with him there, but I don't think he is delusional. I disagree with a lot of your arguments so far and I do not think you are delusional. That is a ridiculous assertion. Also, he owns a company (The Trump Organization LLC) and was in charge of a brand (Trump Ice) and signed agreements to have water distributed to national grocery chains and specialty food stores, although it is not publicly available anymore. Upon further investigation, it does seem that it would be more accurate to say that he owned a water brand rather than a company. Nonetheless, this argument is such a footnote that I could not find a single news source either confirming or refuting it as I searched before, and had to find this article from 2005 which said anything about the agreement whatsoever. And, I absolutely did [I]not[/I] say that Trump is trustworthy because he is successful and people like him. Please quote me in the exact place where I said that, because I am confident that I never said anything like that. All I said was that the fact that he is successful and people like him lends evidence to the fact that he may not be a horrible person or a horrible leader. Bernie Madoff, while "successful" and respected, was a fraud because he [B]committed fraud[/B]. In fact, he wasn't successful at all, because his success was based on fraud, unlike Trump. How is that difficult to understand? Trump has not committed fraud! You cannot make the same arguments about both of them because one of them committed fraud and one didn't! Furthermore, the vast majority of successful, liked businessmen are not convicted fraudsters. So your argument saying "well, here's an example of one successful well-liked guy who was a fraud, so maybe Trump is a fraud too!" is ridiculous. And then you have said that Trump has a pattern of making demonstrably false claims throughout the entirety of his career, where you have only provided examples of things he has said during these presidential primaries. Furthermore, you have done nothing to respond to how exactly anything Trump has done is worse than anybody else running for the Republican or Democratic nomination right now, namely Hillary Clinton. Please tell me how Trump is anymore of a lying, conniving fraud than Hillary is.[/QUOTE] Yes, that is the entire point he [I]had[/I] a line of steaks, a water brand, a line of vodka, a magazine, a mortgage company, and a "university", all of which are now defunct his response to the entirely correct statement that those ventures were failures was to pass off some water bottles, some steaks, and a brochure as those defunct products to convince people that they weren't business failures that is what is known as a lie [quote]I'm not saying Trump has been lying for decades in preparation for this campaign. I think, to the contrary, he is lying right now, and that he's not the kind of person who you'd think he is based off of how he acts during debates and at rallies. People who have worked close and personally with Trump resoundingly say he is extremely business-savvy and extremely smart, and, although he can be a bit crass, is generally a likable and respectable guy. I don't doubt in his business dealings that he has exhibited what you would call egotism, but I think it has worked well for him considering the pretty decent success he's had at numerous points (although occasional failures and bankruptcies as well). But I don't think a man like Trump has delusions that he can run the entire country by himself, or that if his cabinet or campaign managers were very strongly telling him not to do something that he would do it anyway. I guarantee you Trump has a desire to cement a good legacy, and I think he knows he can't do that by blindly parading into office and ignoring common sense and what has historically worked for other presidents in the past.[/quote] Your entire argument throughout this whole discussion has been "Trump is rich, successful and well liked, therefor he can't possibly be an ignorant, self absorbed charlatan", despite that being what his words and actions indicate. My point is that you can be rich, successful and well liked and still be an ignorant charlatan. This has been demonstrated numerous times throughout history. To ignore history because "well, not everyone is a charlatan, so it's still alright to trust them on the basis of their wealth and apparent success" is the definition of foolishness. Trump is not a con man because there are other successful businessman con men, Trump is a con man because he cons people. Like with his phony products. Or his phony university, which he is at this very moment being sued over. Or his phony net worth, which he himself admits he makes up on the spot. If you want to make the argument that Hillary has lied as much, as flagrantly, and as often as Trump, by all means, go ahead. But I think you'll have your work cut out for you. Especially since your definition of "lie" is so absurdly specific.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49962316] Your entire argument throughout this whole discussion has been "Trump is rich, successful and well liked, therefor he can't possibly be an ignorant, self absorbed charlatan", despite that being what his words and actions indicate.[/QUOTE] I have never said this, ever. My point throughout the more recent replies in this discussion has been that he is rich, successful, and well-liked, and those are often traits of people who know what they are doing. I have never said that [I]everyone[/I] with those traits would make a good leader, or that [I]everyone[/I] with those traits knows what they are doing, but I think very often they do. That being said, some people who are successful and well liked are frauds, incompetent, or generally horrible people! But I think those people are the exception rather than the norm. Furthermore, I have said that I think Trump has plenty of motivation to do well as a leader if he ever found himself in that position, because I think he would want to be remembered in a good way and cement a good legacy. This is far from fact, this is my own personal speculation. I have also said that in spite of Trump's failed business ventures or lies, I don't consider him a fraud or a con artist. Everybody lies, and all politicians sell themselves. Whether you want to argue that Trump has lied on a much greater scale than anyone else is your choice, go ahead if you like. But every politician lies, and Trump has acted no differently so far. Ultimately, my argument has not been that Trump would be a good leader, or is even a good person. My argument is only that there is not a lot of definite proof that he [I]wouldn't[/I] be - there's not really any good way to know. So, it is my personal opinion that, if he became the President, he would end up as a fairly average republican president, just like a Bush or a Reagan. I definitely don't think he would finish his presidency as the consensus worst president in US history, though. And I honestly believe it would be his full intention to do as well as he possibly could. And I don't think his presidency would be a huge international threat, or a disaster for this country. I actually think on the basis of political platforms that I'd rather see a Trump presidency than a Cruz presidency. But if you believe that a Trump presidency would be the worst thing ever to happen to this country because he is utterly a liar, a fraud, deceitful, and worthless, and that he has known no success or competency in his life, then that is your prerogative. When I read your arguments, I recall arguments much more intelligent and well-reasoned than yours about why Obama would be one of the worst things to happen to this country, full of facts and sources cherry picked to fit what they were arguing. And now, 8 years later, we know that to be totally untrue. And then I recall arguments made about why Bush beating Gore was the death knell for this country. Again, obviously not true at all. I am just of the opinion that it's never quite as bad or as good as people predict. A lot of people seem to have extremely sensationalist views of the people they support or don't support, and it just seems ridiculous to me. I think Donald Trump is no exception to any of this. That is the only argument I have tried to make.
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