Pizza Hut Employee Shoots and Kills Attempted Robber
200 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Megadave;51285807]General Rule of Guns are to never point a gun at someone unless you intend to use it. So chances are they will use their gun.[/QUOTE]
Not to pick sides on this, but the majority of armed robberies end without anyone getting shot.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;51285419]
since when is money more important than life?????[/QUOTE]
Not everyone lives in a white middle class insulated suburban utopia where everything is pretty much a phone call and credit card away
about 90% of planet earth doesn't live in an insulated white middle class utopia
For someone continually spouting how other cultures should be given deference at every instance
you fail to practice it pretty much ever
hypocrisy, it's what's for dinner
The area where this person works is pretty much not somewhere someone like you would survive for more than a couple of weeks.
[QUOTE=27X;51285866]Not everyone lives in a white middle class insulated suburban utopia where everything is pretty much a phone call and credit card away
about 90% of planet earth doesn't live in an insulated white middle class utopia
For someone continually spouting how other cultures should be given deference at every instance
you fail to practice it pretty much ever
hypocrisy, it's what's for dinner
The area where this person works is pretty much not somewhere someone like you would survive for more than a couple of weeks.[/QUOTE]
yea when someone disagrees with me, i too make up a bunch of facts about that person to justify my bloodlust and paranoia
being completely complaint in a robbery increases your chance of survival. this is a fact. ask any cop or psychologist. it is what you should do
no, you can't (always (when untrained)) predict the behavior of someone unstable, but pulling out a weapon INCREASES your risk of being injured and puts everyone else at risk. if you miss or if they're faster, you have made a bad situation worse
Fucking bullshit he got put on leave. I'm aware that even if one complies in a robbery there's always the risk that the perpetrator (especially if they're desperate) will end up killing someone in the middle of the robbery regardless of whether it's intentional or mistaken.
Serious employment rights in the state are still pretty bullshit.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;51285874]yea when someone disagrees with me, i too make up a bunch of facts about that person to justify my bloodlust and paranoia[/QUOTE]
I have no idea what the intent of either individual was in the matter and neither do you, so armchair proselytizing about what should have been done after the fact is pretty pointless.
You were saying something about making stuff up? By all means, tell us by way of your personal relationship with these two individuals what they [i]meant[/i] to have happen in this situation.
:allears:
[QUOTE=Kigen;51284922]If it happened as the story says then its completely legal on the employee's end. As armed robbery involves the threat of serious bodily injury or death.
Generally the other two accomplices to the dead intruder will be charged with felony murder.
And yeah, Pizza Hut will probably fire the employee.[/QUOTE]
Then he should sue then ag
[QUOTE=27X;51285900]I have no idea what the intent of either individual was in the matter and neither do you, so armchair proselytizing about what should have been done after the fact is pretty pointless.
You were saying something about making stuff up? By all means, tell us by way of your personal relationship with these two individuals what they [i]meant[/i] to have happen in this situation.
:allears:[/QUOTE]
one dude wanted to rob the place and one dude wanted to not get shot
in which case he probably shouldn't have pulled out a gun, which is the one thing you do if you want to increase the likelyhood of being shot. just because he is lucky and murdered this man (still fucked btw. u are all fucked in the head) doesn't mean it was smart or statistically the normal outcome for this kind of situation
[editline]31st October 2016[/editline]
but you are american and are indoctrinated with this 'shoot first' mentality and even considering me to be right would mean you're a bit fucked in the head and there's no way you're going to cop to that
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Debate without calling everyone fucked maybe??" - Novangel))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Nookyava;51284939]I used to be a shift manager at a Pizza Hut and I can confirm that they drill it into you with handbooks, and bi-annual online training that you are to comply with everything and hide. They state to never engage the robber, so very likely the employee will be fired. I would hope not personally though, as he did a brave thing there.
Pizza Hut is weird with their rules/company laws, and can randomly be extremely strict, or slap on the wrist weak.[/QUOTE]
Makes perfect sense to be honest. I'm not gonna call the guy an idiot for choosing to shoot the robber, but generally robbers aren't interested in the murder charge, and the amount of money being stolen is probably a drop in the ocean. My guess is that the safer route is (in most cases) to not escalate the situation, and just give the robber what he wants. I respect you if you want more direct control of your fate, but Pizza Hut should definitely give their employees as little reason as possible to try their luck. Pizza Hut's responsibility is to minimize the amount of people gettin gunned down in their stores.
Edit: Also, looking at the broader picture, if a robber can expect to be met by people with guns, he'd be an idiot to not bring a gun. Here in Denmark people generally just use threatening words or a knife, and my guess is that very few people get killed on robberies around here - probably a good deal less than in the US. De-escalation is the word.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;51285910]one dude wanted to rob the place and one dude wanted to not get shot
in which case he probably shouldn't have pulled out a gun, which is the one thing you do if you want to increase the likelyhood of being shot. just because he is lucky and murdered this man (still fucked btw. u are all fucked in the head) doesn't mean it was smart or statistically the normal outcome for this kind of situation
[editline]31st October 2016[/editline]
but you are american and are indoctrinated with this 'shoot first' mentality and even considering me to be right would mean you're a bit fucked in the head and there's no way you're going to cop to that[/QUOTE]
The dude had a right to defend himself. Fight or flight, he chose to fight.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;51285981]Makes perfect sense to be honest. I'm not gonna call the guy an idiot for choosing to shoot the robber, but generally robbers aren't interested in the murder charge, and the amount of money being stolen is probably a drop in the ocean. My guess is that the safer route is (in most cases) to not escalate the situation, and just give the robber what he wants. I respect you if you want more direct control of your fate, but Pizza Hut should definitely give their employees as little reason as possible to try their luck. Pizza Hut's responsibility is to minimize the amount of people gettin gunned down in their stores.
Edit: Also, looking at the broader picture, if a robber can expect to be met by people with guns, he'd be an idiot to not bring a gun. Here in Denmark people generally just use threatening words or a knife, and my guess is that very few people get killed on robberies around here - probably a good deal less than in the US. De-escalation is the word.[/QUOTE]
I agree wholly with de-escalation being the first thing to try and do, any fight avoided is a victory. But seeing as the guy drew a weapon, that went out the window. The crook made his choice and the pizza hut employee made his.
[QUOTE=Kegan;51286025]I agree wholly with de-escalation being the first thing to try and do, any fight avoided is a victory. But seeing as the guy drew a weapon, that went out the window. The crook made his choice and the pizza hut employee made his.[/QUOTE]
Again, the guy has a right to defend himself, but no, drawing your gun in response is the opposite, and not a neutral action, of de-escalation. At the very least the employee just gave the guy a very good reason to shoot him, and what if he had failed to kill him? Other people might've been hit in the crossfire, resulting in more casualties in a situation that might've ended with none (robber included). Again, I'm on my phone right now, which is why I'm leaving some uncertainty to the question, but my guess is that most robberies where someone tries to defend themselves ends with more dead people than the ones where everybody just does as the robber says.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;51285910]one dude wanted to rob the place and one dude wanted to not get shot
in which case he probably shouldn't have pulled out a gun, which is the one thing you do if you want to increase the likelyhood of being shot. just because he is lucky and murdered this man (still fucked btw. u are all fucked in the head) doesn't mean it was smart or statistically the normal outcome for this kind of situation
[editline]31st October 2016[/editline]
but you are american and are indoctrinated with this 'shoot first' mentality and even considering me to be right would mean you're a bit fucked in the head and there's no way you're going to cop to that[/QUOTE]
And I could say you are indoctrinated to roll over if anyone threatens you. Just give them what they want, even if that means the end of your life.
The robber is violating the law, and using force illegally. If a cop had been there the cop would had done the exact same thing the employee did. End the threat.
[QUOTE=Ridge;51285469]I don't like that they called the guy who died the victim.[/QUOTE]
Same, he didn't deserve to die, but he certainly wasn't an unarmed innocent man.
On a different topic I used to work at McDonalds and during the training you are explicitly told that in the case of a robbery you are supposed to be completely complacent.
Now I know this may sound stupid to some of you, but those are the rules regardless if you or myself agree with them or not.
I made my way up to shift manager and I honestly better understand the need for being complacent.
It may seem like a good idea to be a hero, but in my opinion more can go wrong than right.
I personally would not want to risk my crew or my own life over just a chance.
When you consider that despite the burglars being armed. They're intentions are profit not blood shed. It really puts the heroic act of trying to stop the burglar needlessly into perspective.
Unless the burglar were to threaten my crew or my life despite us being complacent, and there was no reasoning with this human being then I would see force as a necessary action.
Now I know in that situation it may already have been too late for me or some one else, but the chances of things playing out that way in the first place are very low from my understanding of restaurant burglaries.
And as a leader I am expected by my employer and crew to have the best decisions spar of the moment.
I can not say that the decision this man made was right, nor wrong. But I will say that his actions were reckless, and results COULD have been much more disastrous.
It is this recklacness that I see his leave of absence as an appropriate action. My feelings towards this exact story are irrelevant, but from a business owners point of view it would be stupid to not concern yourself with the actions of your employees.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;51285910]one dude wanted to rob the place and one dude wanted to not get shot
in which case he probably shouldn't have pulled out a gun, which is the one thing you do if you want to increase the likelyhood of being shot. just because he is lucky and murdered this man (still fucked btw. u are all fucked in the head) doesn't mean it was smart or statistically the normal outcome for this kind of situation
[editline]31st October 2016[/editline]
but you are american and are indoctrinated with this 'shoot first' mentality and even considering me to be right would mean you're a bit fucked in the head and there's no way you're going to cop to that[/QUOTE]
"Murdered"
The robber wasn't murdered. He was shot in self defence. If someone is aiming a gun at you, you should be expecting the worst.
Good job going for his nationality too. Great part to call him out on.
(That's sarcasm, by the way.)
[QUOTE=Mr. J;51286112]Same, he didn't deserve to die, but he certainly wasn't an unarmed innocent man.
On a different topic I used to work at McDonalds and during the training you are explicitly told that in the case of a robbery you are supposed to be completely complacent.
Now I know this may sound stupid to some of you, but those are the rules regardless if you or myself agree with them or not.
I made my way up to shift manager and I honestly better understand the need for being complacent.
It may seem like a good idea to be a hero, but in my opinion more can go wrong than right.
I personally would not want to risk my crew or my own life over just a chance.
When you consider that despite the burglars being armed. They're intentions are profit not blood shed. It really puts the heroic act of trying to stop the burglar needlessly into perspective.
Unless the burglar were to threaten my crew or my life despite us being complacent, and there was no reasoning with this human being then I would see force as a necessary action.
Now I know in that situation it may already have been too late for me or some one else, but the chances of things playing out that way in the first place are very low from my understanding of restaurant burglaries.
And as a leader I am expected by my employer and crew to have the best decisions spar of the moment.
I can not say that the decision this man made was right, nor wrong. But I will say that his actions were reckless, and results COULD have been much more disastrous.
It is this recklacness that I see his leave of absence as an appropriate action. My feelings towards this exact story are irrelevant, but from a business owners point of view it would be stupid to not concern yourself with the actions of your employees.[/QUOTE]
This is all correct. Anyone that disagrees with this has both never been in any danger before, nor been in charge of the safety of others. Being a gun toting monkey wanna-be macho man puts you, and those around you, in unnecessary danger. In the real world, your fantasies will statistically get you killed. This story is noteworthy because the pizza hut employee is an outlier.
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;51286327]This is all correct. Anyone that disagrees with this has both never been in any danger before, nor been in charge of the safety of others. Being a gun toting monkey wanna-be macho man puts you, and those around you, in unnecessary danger. In the real world, your fantasies will statistically get you killed. This story is noteworthy because the pizza hut employee is an outlier.[/QUOTE]
Its not an "outlier." Statistically self-defense tends to work.
[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/dgu/[/url] <- A sub-reddit collecting Defensive Gun usage news articles.
Guns used in self-defense far exceed those that result in death as most of the time not a shot is even fired. Generally a robber is not looking for a fight when they rob someone or some place. They're looking to be the one controlling everyone. When confronted with armed resistance they will generally flee, FAST. And as I said, most of the time this results in no shots fired and not even a news story.
Also, defending one's life is not being "macho" its being responsible for one's own life.
If someone has a gun pulled, ALWAYS assume they intend to use it.
What do you guys think a cop in that situation would have done? He would have done the exact same thing and you guys would be calling him a hero. And don't try to pull the "well he's trained" thing because the vast majority of concealed carriers are as well or better trained than cops. Cops have very low standards for firearms training.
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;51286327]Anyone that disagrees with this has both never been in any danger before[/QUOTE]
Nah, that's bullshit. Mr. J's position is understandable, but he is right on the money when he says that 'in that situation it may already have been too late for me or some one else'. If you assume that the guy waving a gun in your face is only there for profit, not bloodshed, you won't know if you're wrong until someone's been shot. He says 'unless the burglar were to threaten my crew or my life', but the fact is that when someone threatens lethal force to make you comply, they've already done that.
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;51286327]Being a gun toting monkey wanna-be macho man[/QUOTE]
You are basically calling every trained police officer a 'gun toting monkey wanna-be macho man'. Because what you are suggesting are the rules for minimum-wage store employees, not people trained and certified to carry a gun, who overwhelmingly meet the threat of force with equal force.
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;51286327]In the real world, your fantasies will statistically get you killed. This story is noteworthy because the pizza hut employee is an outlier.[/QUOTE]
(citation needed)
I'd be happy to share some stats on how many defensive gun uses result in the death of the victim, if you actually want to learn when you're done with the soapboxing. Spoiler: It's overwhelmingly low, lower than the number of legitimate self-defense homicides, and [i]far[/i] lower than the number of such situations that end with the robber bugging out.
[QUOTE=Kigen;51286375]Its not an "outlier." Statistically self-defense tends to work.
[/QUOTE]
Can you post that statistic?
At least I'm in east Charlotte!
(like 2 minutes from where the Keith Scott/BLM/Riots happened D:)
Yay Charlotte!
[QUOTE=plunger435;51286440]Can you post that statistic?[/QUOTE]
[url]http://home.uchicago.edu/ludwigj/papers/JQC-CookLudwig-DefensiveGunUses-1998.pdf[/url]
A older study done by anti-gun people. They didn't believe the numbers they got so they spent some time trying to explain it away. Since they kind believed that there would be higher deaths due to involving a gun. But they seem to not understand that most of the time presentation of a gun gets people to immediately back off. Because survival is important to all involved. Its kind of like MAD really, not involving such destruction, but the psychology that goes into it.
Ultimately the statistics are not kept by the FBI UCR. It would definitely be more useful there, but not all DGU even involve the police or a police report. Because why report something that didn't happen. The teacher for my CHL class explained one incident at a mall near me. She said some young males were casing her throughout the mall. When she got to her car, one male separated from the other 3 and approached her very close in. She presented her gun and told him to back off. He and the other 3 fled. She called the police and they told her there was 17 muggings that were gang initiations that happened at the mall within the previous month. And that they suspected that the males were apart of that. But since basically nothing happened there was no crime so no reports.
[QUOTE=a-cookie;51284911]why would you rob a pizza hut
gotta be better places to rob[/QUOTE]
being desesperate and a pathetic person makes you do that
[QUOTE=Kigen;51286472][url]http://home.uchicago.edu/ludwigj/papers/JQC-CookLudwig-DefensiveGunUses-1998.pdf[/url]
A older study done by anti-gun people. They didn't believe the numbers they got so they spent some time trying to explain it away. Since they kind believed that there would be higher deaths due to involving a gun. But they seem to not understand that most of the time presentation of a gun gets people to immediately back off. Because survival is important to all involved. Its kind of like MAD really, not involving such destruction, but the psychology that goes into it.
Ultimately the statistics are not kept by the FBI UCR. It would definitely be more useful there, but not all DGU even involve the police or a police report. Because why report something that didn't happen. The teacher for my CHL class explained one incident at a mall near me. She said some young males were casing her throughout the mall. When she got to her car, one male separate from the other 3 and approached her very close in. She presented her gun and told him to back off. He and the other 3 fled. She called the police and they told her there was 17 muggings that were gang initiations that happened at the mall within the previous month. And that they suspected that the males were apart of that. But since basically nothing happened there was no crime so no reports.[/QUOTE]
Your 'statistic' isn't about successful uses of guns in self defense. It's that telephone surveys on the subject don't actually give any kind of indication one way or the other on the matter.
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;51286327]This is all correct. Anyone that disagrees with this has both never been in any danger before, nor been in charge of the safety of others. Being a gun toting monkey wanna-be macho man puts you, and those around you, in unnecessary danger. In the real world, your fantasies will statistically get you killed. This story is noteworthy because the pizza hut employee is an outlier.[/QUOTE]
In the real world not everyone with a C&C license is some gun toting monkey wanna-be macho man you seem to imagine, and not every criminal is just some get-in-get-out robber.
I mean come on dude, look at what you just said and tell me a single sentence of that was reasonable.
For fucks sake look at this article in the sidebar of the one in OP, same state different county, one week earlier.
[url]http://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/3-charged-in-murder-of-woman-toddler-to-face-judge-for-first-time/462333909[/url]
Three people break into a home to steal something and they end up killing a woman and a toddler. Yeah if you go by statistics the chance of getting killed during a robbery are low, but when the dice roll and you're dead, then fuck, right?
[QUOTE=plunger435;51286531]Your 'statistic' isn't about successful uses of guns in self defense. It's that telephone surveys on the subject don't actually give any kind of indication one way or the other on the matter.[/QUOTE]
They are living and not in jail to respond. Anyway, I would ask you as well, can you prove the your side of the argument with statistics and facts?
[QUOTE=Kigen;51286577][B]They are living and not in jail to respond[/B]. Anyway, I would ask you as well, can you prove the your side of the argument with statistics and facts?[/QUOTE]
You're still ignoring that the entire study you posted says not to believe that. What do you mean they were living and not jail? They were asked over the phone, not verified.
I'm not making an argument for one side or the other, but you're clearly manipulating statistics to try and further yours.
[QUOTE=BelatedGamer;51285814]Not to pick sides on this, but the majority of armed robberies end without anyone getting shot.[/QUOTE]
Armed robbery is a shorter jail sentence than murder, so why increase the charges against you? Most armed robberies are just a show of force -- intimidation. In most circumstances, they never intend to use the gun, if it's even a real gun; which is why they get caught surprised when someone retaliates.
[QUOTE=plunger435;51286610]You're still ignoring that the entire study you posted says not to believe that. What do you mean they were living and not jail? They were asked over the phone, not verified.
I'm not making an argument for one side or the other, but you're clearly manipulating statistics to try and further yours.[/QUOTE]
And I stated that the FBI UCR would be a good place for it. But the government does not collect statistics on defensive gun usage aside from justifiable homicide.
[QUOTE=Megadave;51285807]General Rule of Guns are to never point a gun at someone unless you intend to use it. So chances are they will use their gun.[/QUOTE]
Statistically that's untrue in armed robberies.
Although I would probably react similarly to the employee. Even though statistically you're most likely (by a pretty far margin from what I remember in what I've read) not going to get shot, I'm not sure if I would take that risk.
If I had a gun pointed at me, I'm fairly certain I'd go for the "shoot first, deal with the consequences later" response.
Considering it was a robbery, the worst he'll get is fired from his job.
Although I am still curious as to why he had a personal firearm at work.
I could kind of understand it if he was a driver though, you deal with some sketchy people on deliveries.
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