Pizza Hut Employee Shoots and Kills Attempted Robber
200 replies, posted
[QUOTE=markfu;51286664]Statistically that's untrue in armed robberies.
Although I would probably react similarly to the employee. Even though statistically you're most likely (by a pretty far margin from what I remember in what I've read) not going to get shot, I'm not sure if I would take that risk.[/QUOTE]
People have a funny habit of discarding better odds that they have no control over in favor of worse odds where they feel control - my guess is more people are afraid of flying planes, where they have absolutely no control if shit goes south compared to driving your own car, where you're statistically speaking more likely to die, for example. Same way I'd bet you put yourself at larger risk the second you draw that gun, compared to just complying.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;51285168]people generally dont murder out of nowhere
Which is more likely in terms of a robber wanting to murder someone:
1: That he just decides to kill the clerk for no reason, escalating a robbery charge to a murder charge for essentially no reason.
2: That his friend got fatally shot by the clerk.
I think that the latter is more likely to get the clerk murdered.[/QUOTE]
Here's a question. If a robber doesn't intend to murder someone, why are they armed in the first place?
Everyone knows these stores train employees to just give in to demands anyway, and the employees lose nothing from handing over the cash. So why exactly do they need to be brandishing a firearm?
Moreover, to my understanding, using a firearm in the commission of a crime increases the legal penalty.
All of this being said, it seems that a sane and rational person who intended to rob this store would have not had a firearm because (A) it was likely unnecessary due to the training and lack of personal investment of whomever they would be robbing and (B) would increase their criminal sentence should they be caught.
Given that this person did have a firearm, it can be presumed perhaps they aren't sane and rational. Further, while criminals (let alone people) generally don't want to commit murder, robbery is an adrenaline filled situation and it's very easy for someone who doesn't intend to murder someone to do so accidently due to being jumpy or the like.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;51286721]Here's a question. If a robber doesn't intend to murder someone, why are they armed in the first place?[/QUOTE]
Intimidation
[QUOTE=DaMastez;51286721]Here's a question. If a robber doesn't intend to murder someone, why are they armed in the first place?
Everyone knows these stores train employees to just give in to demands anyway, and the employees lose nothing from handing over the cash. So why exactly do they need to be brandishing a firearm?
Moreover, to my understanding, using a firearm in the commission of a crime increases the legal penalty [/QUOTE]
Probably the same reason the employee had a gun - to protect against other people with guns. Here in Denmark robberies seldom include a gun, and the reason seems pretty clear; guns are fairly expensive and hard to get a hold of, and there's no need. The populace at large isn't armed, so chances are having a knife, or just claiming to have a knife is enough. In the US, though, you need to protect yourself. Basically it's an arms race. Just because the robber has gun that doesn't mean he intends to shoot anyone - he's probably willing to do it if somebody tries to stop him in a any way, though.
[editline]31st October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=plunger435;51286738]Intimidation[/QUOTE]
This too, of course. But intimidation can be carried out with a knife as well.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;51286721]Here's a question. If a robber doesn't intend to murder someone, why are they armed in the first place?
Everyone knows these stores train employees to just give in to demands anyway, and the employees lose nothing from handing over the cash. [B]So why exactly do they need to be brandishing a firearm?[/B]
Moreover, to my understanding, using a firearm in the commission of a crime increases the legal penalty.
[B]All of this being said, it seems that a sane and rational person who intended to rob this store would have not had a firearm because (A) it was likely unnecessary due to the training and lack of personal investment of whomever they would be robbing and (B) would increase their criminal sentence should they be caught.[/B]
Given that this person did have a firearm, it can be presumed perhaps they aren't sane and rational. Further, while criminals (let alone people) generally don't want to commit murder, robbery is an adrenaline filled situation and it's very easy for someone who doesn't intend to murder someone to do so accidently due to being jumpy or the like.[/QUOTE]
They bring a firearm to intimidate anyone inside the store into submission. You'd have to be a pretty shit crook to try to forcibly take a bunch of money without a weapon -- bringing a gun [I]is[/I] the rational option if you're desperate for cash.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;51286709]People have a funny habit of discarding better odds that they have no control over in favor of worse odds where they feel control - my guess is more people are afraid of flying planes, where they have absolutely no control if shit goes south compared to driving your own car, where you're statistically speaking more likely to die, for example. Same way I'd bet you put yourself at larger risk the second you draw that gun, compared to just complying.[/QUOTE]
I actually agree, especially with the plane analogy, I just know what my generic panic instinct would be. It'd obviously change based on circumstances, but thankfully I've never been in a situation like this, so all I can do is speculate.
How exactly is the dead robber a victim? In the video they paint the guy like it's some kind of tragedy that he was driven to rob. If you, and two of your friends decide the best way to make some petty cash is to grab a few guns and go rob a store, threatening other peoples lives for what's in a till, whatever you get is what you deserve. We've got far too many people on this planet who need genuine help to care about the people who get themselves hurt or killed trying to steal and rob with deadly weapons.
If the guy ran after a group of robbers who had just robbed the store where he worked and shot them in the back then the employee would obviously be in the wrong and that would be manslaughter, But during the act of the crime being committed you have no idea what the intent or outcome is going to be.
I think they are saying the identified victim is the man that had to shoot. They then later say that the man that died on scene has not been identified.
[QUOTE=Cructo;51285013]if anything he deserves a bonus[/QUOTE]
serious or not nah we dont wanna give people money for killing
[editline]31st October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;51285364]I fail to understand the Rambo comparison.[/QUOTE]
it's an expression, not a comparison
[editline]31st October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ridge;51285469]I don't like that they called the guy who died the victim.[/QUOTE]
yeah people who commit crimes should no longer be treated as people yeah!!
[editline]31st October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Fish Muffin;51286381]vast majority of concealed carriers are as well or better trained than cops[/QUOTE]
uhhh damn
[QUOTE=plunger435;51286738]Intimidation[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=BelatedGamer;51286748]They bring a firearm to intimidate anyone inside the store into submission. You'd have to be a pretty shit crook to try to forcibly take a bunch of money without a weapon -- bringing a gun [I]is[/I] the rational option if you're desperate for cash.[/QUOTE]
Having two partners in crime isn't intimidation enough? Moreover, how many minimum wage employees are going to physically try to fight a robber, regardless of if the robber is armed with fists, a knife, or a gun when they lose nothing from (and are told by company policy to) just giving the robber the money?
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;51286741]Probably the same reason the employee had a gun - to protect against other people with guns.[/QUOTE]
Criminals don't need to protect themselves from law abiding citizens with guns though; had these criminals walked in and demanded the money without acting in a threatening manner, the likelihood of them being shot would have been much lower.
Mind, I'm arguing from a perspective of someone robbing a store with some minimum wage employee working there. Stores where said employees are encouraged to give the robbers what they want and are often punished for fighting back.
Without the threat of violence, an employee has literally no reason to defend themselves because they lose absolutely nothing by giving the robbers the money from the cash register. When violence is threatened, then you create a situation where the employee fears for their life, then you create a situation where the employee may decide to defend themselves.
Good. Being fired is one thing, being dead is another.
[QUOTE=Nookyava;51284939]I used to be a shift manager at a Pizza Hut and I can confirm that they drill it into you with handbooks, and bi-annual online training that you are to comply with everything and hide. They state to never engage the robber, so very likely the employee will be fired. I would hope not personally though, as he did a brave thing there.
Pizza Hut is weird with their rules/company laws, and can randomly be extremely strict, or slap on the wrist weak.[/QUOTE]
I was a supervisor at an AMC theater and our rules was to don't look them into the eyes, comply, hide and then as a last result, fight. They would show us videos as to what weapons to use. It was kinda funny
[QUOTE=Saturn V;51287085]
yeah people who commit crimes should no longer be treated as people yeah!![/QUOTE]
I guess that makes suicide bombers victims too
[QUOTE=DaMastez;51287221]Having two partners in crime isn't intimidation enough? Moreover, how many minimum wage employees are going to physically try to fight a robber, regardless of if the robber is armed with fists, a knife, or a gun when they lose nothing from (and are told by company policy to) just giving the robber the money?
Criminals don't need to protect themselves from law abiding citizens with guns though; had these criminals walked in and demanded the money without acting in a threatening manner, the likelihood of them being shot would have been much lower.
Mind, I'm arguing from a perspective of someone robbing a store with some minimum wage employee working there. Stores where said employees are encouraged to give the robbers what they want and are often punished for fighting back.
Without the threat of violence, an employee has literally no reason to defend themselves because they lose absolutely nothing by giving the robbers the money from the cash register. When violence is threatened, then you create a situation where the employee fears for their life, then you create a situation where the employee may decide to defend themselves.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what you're trying to argue? Criminals don't know about store policies first off, second you're posting that employees never fight back in a thread about that very thing happening.
[QUOTE=Saturn V;51287085]yeah people who commit crimes should no longer be treated as people yeah!![/QUOTE]
How many layers of strawman are you on right now?
If you can't face the consequences, don't do the fucking crime.
[QUOTE=Saturn V;51287085]
yeah people who commit crimes should no longer be treated as people yeah!!
[/QUOTE]
most people use the word victim as someone who was wronged in an incident, as in, if the employee got shot, they'd be a victim, but if the robber was shot, they normally wouldn't be a 'victim' of their own crime.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;51285910]one dude wanted to rob the place and one dude wanted to not get shot
in which case he probably shouldn't have pulled out a gun, which is the one thing you do if you want to increase the likelyhood of being shot. just because he is lucky and murdered this man (still fucked btw. u are all fucked in the head) doesn't mean it was smart or statistically the normal outcome for this kind of situation
[editline]31st October 2016[/editline]
but you are american and are indoctrinated with this 'shoot first' mentality and even considering me to be right would mean you're a bit fucked in the head and there's no way you're going to cop to that
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Debate without calling everyone fucked maybe??" - Novangel))[/highlight][/QUOTE]
I misclicked and gave you a star there but let me clear that up; I think you're talking complete and utter rubbish.
[editline]31st October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;51286327]This is all correct. Anyone that disagrees with this has both never been in any danger before, nor been in charge of the safety of others. Being a gun toting monkey wanna-be macho man puts you, and those around you, in unnecessary danger. In the real world, your fantasies will statistically get you killed. This story is noteworthy because the pizza hut employee is an outlier.[/QUOTE]
I am genuinely disgusted at how full of yourself you are, jesus fucking christ. There's a high horse and then there's this.
Well how many times lately have we seen cops shoot for less?
Anyone dumb enough to hold up a pizza place with a firearm is dumb enough to use it.
It's difficult to know how anyone would react in a similar situation.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;51285910]one dude wanted to rob the place and one dude wanted to not get shot
in which case he probably shouldn't have pulled out a gun, which is the one thing you do if you want to increase the likelyhood of being shot. just because he is lucky and murdered this man (still fucked btw. u are all fucked in the head) doesn't mean it was smart or statistically the normal outcome for this kind of situation
[editline]31st October 2016[/editline]
but you are american and are indoctrinated with this 'shoot first' mentality and even considering me to be right would mean you're a bit fucked in the head and there's no way you're going to cop to that
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Debate without calling everyone fucked maybe??" - Novangel))[/highlight][/QUOTE]
As someone who has lurked on here for a couple of years, I've registered just to let you know that even with a post count of "67,764", you are an absolutely awful poster and you was an awful mod too by the way. It actually surprises me that with a post count that high that none of your posts have ever been even remotely memorable or interesting.
Onto the actual article itself, the employee should have kept his job and been given a bonus for defending the restaurant. Kudos to him.
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51287855]Well how many times lately have we seen cops shoot for less?
Anyone dumb enough to hold up a pizza place with a firearm is dumb enough to use it.
It's difficult to know how anyone would react in a similar situation.[/QUOTE]
well thats not really comparable because its the cops job to defend and protect
[QUOTE=Map in a box;51288592]well thats not really comparable because its the cops job to defend and protect[/QUOTE]
If 'drawing a gun just makes things worse!' like people in this thread are claiming, then the best way to 'protect' would be for a cop to not draw. Yet that's not standard procedure- why?
[QUOTE=catbarf;51288803]If 'drawing a gun just makes things worse!' like people in this thread are claiming, then the best way to 'protect' would be for a cop to not draw. Yet that's not standard procedure- why?[/QUOTE]
To be fair, the employee probably already had a gun on him so if he drew it he would have been more likely to have been shot. Cops who draw down on people with guns have kevlar that would give them some protection at the very least, and even then, that's part of their job.
[QUOTE=Achilles11;51288108]As someone who has lurked on here for a couple of years, I've registered just to let you know that even with a post count of "67,764", you are an absolutely awful poster and you was an awful mod too by the way. It actually surprises me that with a post count that high that none of your posts have ever been even remotely memorable or interesting.
Onto the actual article itself, the employee should have kept his job and been given a bonus for defending the restaurant. Kudos to him.[/QUOTE]
First post best post.
Edit: and to stay on topic, I'm genuinely curious where that guy is gonna go if he gets fired. He'd make for a good security guard, be already works late shifts and seems to be pretty on point with quick decision making :v:
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;51285543]How does considering your employees expendable in any way imply thinking they should attack someone?
Any incident involving conflict costs money. They want to avoid conflict. If a few employees get killed or seriously hurt in the process, it's still cheaper. That's literally it. Money.[/QUOTE]
Employees aren't expendable in a corporate business. Know what costs a lot of money? Hiring processes, firing processes, and potential lawsuits that come from firing somebody. If you've ever worked for any corporation, you know that a terrible employee can stick around for years as long as they don't cost the company any significant amount of money. They would rather keep that shitty employee on because it would cost money to fire them and rehire a new person who may be just as shitty or worse.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;51285910]one dude wanted to rob the place and one dude wanted to not get shot
in which case he probably shouldn't have pulled out a gun, which is the one thing you do if you want to increase the likelyhood of being shot. just because he is lucky and murdered this man (still fucked btw. u are all fucked in the head) doesn't mean it was smart or statistically the normal outcome for this kind of situation
[editline]31st October 2016[/editline]
but you are american and are indoctrinated with this 'shoot first' mentality and even considering me to be right would mean you're a bit fucked in the head and there's no way you're going to cop to that
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Debate without calling everyone fucked maybe??" - Novangel))[/highlight][/QUOTE]
Not everyone is a pushover like you who can't or won't fight for their money, belongings or their lives.
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;51286327]This is all correct. Anyone that disagrees with this has both never been in any danger before, nor been in charge of the safety of others.[/quote]
Look, being on the victim end of a robbery, burglary, or crime in general is not a black and white situation. There a million different scenarios a person could be in and it's not always a good idea to be compliant and apathetic, but it's not also a good idea to respond to it with violence. I say this as a person who has been in this sort of situation more than once and has acted differently each time.
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;51286327] Being a gun toting monkey wanna-be macho man puts you, and those around you, in unnecessary danger.[/quote]
Thats a very nice and kind generalization. Not everyone who carries a firearm is qualified be carrying one, but the vast majority who carry them are qualified and well trained in their use. Most states' CHL classes require a marksmanship test to prove your worth before they'll even let you take the written test. More often than not, a person with a CHL will save their life and the lives of others before they hurt an innocent.
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;51286327] In the real world, your fantasies will statistically get you killed. This story is noteworthy because the pizza hut employee is an outlier.[/QUOTE]
You're actually wrong. The vast majority of CHL self defense cases kind of prove this. A lot of them are resolved without even a shot being fired on either end. But the case in question is one where the employee acted properly even though he could have taken a different route and potentially come out just as safe. L
[editline]31st October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kegan;51288940]First post best post.
Edit: and to stay on topic, I'm genuinely curious where that guy is gonna go if he gets fired. He'd make for a good security guard, be already works late shifts and seems to be pretty on point with quick decision making :v:[/QUOTE]
Most security guards aren't armed and as long as this guy doesn't get charged with anything, it won't show up on any criminal background check an employer does. Generally with businesses like pizza hut, as long as he doesn't use a manager as a reference, can only tell a new employer where they worked, what position, and for how long. They don't often discuss why a person was fired.
[editline]31st October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Map in a box;51288592]well thats not really comparable because its the cops job to defend and protect[/QUOTE]
And a person has a right to defend themselves.
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51289164]And a person has a right to defend themselves.[/QUOTE]
good thing I didn't say they didn't in my post then right? there's a difference between defending yourself and putting everyone at risk though
[QUOTE=Nookyava;51284939]I used to be a shift manager at a Pizza Hut and I can confirm that they drill it into you with handbooks, and bi-annual online training that you are to comply with everything and hide. They state to never engage the robber, so very likely the employee will be fired. I would hope not personally though, as he did a brave thing there.
Pizza Hut is weird with their rules/company laws, and can randomly be extremely strict, or slap on the wrist weak.[/QUOTE]
I assumed the bigger problem was that he had a gun on his person. Surely, the employee handbook says not to bring your guns to work with you?
[QUOTE=Dirty_Ape;51289902]I assumed the bigger problem was that he had a gun on his person. Surely, the employee handbook says not to bring your guns to work with you?[/QUOTE]
We probably won't ever know.
[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;51288855]To be fair, the employee probably already had a gun on him so if he drew it he would have been more likely to have been shot. Cops who draw down on people with guns have kevlar that would give them some protection at the very least, and even then, that's part of their job.[/QUOTE]
Getting shot isn't their job. Protecting the populace is, and according to the arguments made in this thread, drawing their gun would be putting everyone else at risk to no benefit.
(I can give you the real answer if you like- innocents have a better chance of someone draws a gun on the robber and shoots to end the threat, if the robber doesn't immediately turn tail and run like they do the overwhelming majority of the time they're in that situation)
[QUOTE=Map in a box;51289895]there's a difference between defending yourself and putting everyone at risk though[/QUOTE]
But it's a cop's job to 'put everyone at risk'?
I've yet to get a compelling answer as to why a trained concealed carrier drawing their gun can only make things worse, endanger innocents, end childhood innocence, and spawn super-AIDS while it's undoubtedly the immediate reaction any cop would have.
Pulling a gun to people with guns is just going to make those people angry and if you don't manage to take them down before you its not unlikely that they won't make more victims.
[editline]31st October 2016[/editline]
I'm not saying what he did was wrong, but I don't want to say what he did was right either.
[QUOTE=Dirty_Ape;51289902]I assumed the bigger problem was that he had a gun on his person. Surely, the employee handbook says not to bring your guns to work with you?[/QUOTE]
The article doesnt specify where he got the firearm from. COuld have been in his car, his locker, or on his person, but we dont know. And it is certainly against policy for employees to carry weapons.
[editline]1st November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Map in a box;51290145]Pulling a gun to people with guns is just going to make those people angry and if you don't manage to take them down before you its not unlikely that they won't make more victims.
[editline]31st October 2016[/editline]
I'm not saying what he did was wrong, but I don't want to say what he did was right either.[/QUOTE]
It really depends on the situation. Its not so black and white that a person trained with a firearm and that person drawing a firearm makes things worse. Maybe the doods back was turned or maybe he had a bb pistol with the orange cap taken off.
It really depends on the scenario, but its not so black amd whitw that always pulling a firearm is a bad thing.
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