• Swat team throw stun grenade into toddler’s crib during drug bust
    266 replies, posted
[quote]While your post sheds some light on the subject, I still disagree with assuming any fellow citizen who sells drugs and owns guns is going to be flat out willing to murder people. [/quote] Going in assuming they are hostile and they turning out not to be, or going in assuming they are hostile and them turning out to be hostile, is a lot safer than going in assuming they aren't going to be hostile, and then it turns out they are. If you went in and assumed they weren't hostile, and it turned out they were, you're going to have a whole load of dead cops, and in a residential area, possibly a whole load of injured or dead civilians. They basically can't take the chance that they're going to be hostile and the Swat team not prepared for them to be.
[QUOTE=Perfumly;44960714]Meh, I think this is debatable simply for the fact that they entered with excessive force right off the bat. You don't need a SWAT Team to bring down a family man who sells some dope. They didn't do any research on this guy at all, and instead of just making a clean arrest when he leaves the house they bust down his door at 3am. If something like that happened to me at 3am (Or a lot of people that I know) I would probably be dead because I would be disoriented and my house just got broken into and it's a lot quicker for me to reach for a gun than it is for me to dial a phone and speak with a 911 operator.[/QUOTE] It was found out that there were guns on the premise when the SWAT team entered. And I don't think the guy was a familyman really. Most Drug Dealers aren't Walter White.
[QUOTE=Perfumly;44960328]Oh facepunch[/QUOTE] Oh tinhat wearers.
That's a terrible accident holy shit. [QUOTE]‘It landed in his playpen and exploded on his pillow right in his face. We go up to see him and his whole face is ripped open. He has a big cut on his chest.’[/QUOTE] terrifying experience for everyone involved, but did they not know that the family owns a child? I'm curious about that because this situation could have been avoided.
Yes, this situation could have been avoided, if the parents weren't scumbags and kept their child in the same house as their drugs and illegal weapons.
my uncles the police chief of whitefish bay should i cut off all contact??? [editline]31st May 2014[/editline] its gonna be hard because i love the guy and hes also 6 foot 6 inches and probably 250 pounds [editline]31st May 2014[/editline] with a bald head and a sick as all hell stache
[QUOTE=SirDavid255;44961972]That's a terrible accident holy shit. terrifying experience for everyone involved, but did they not know that the family owns a child? I'm curious about that because this situation could have been avoided.[/QUOTE] I agree with you. If the plan calls for assaulting a private home in the middle of the night, the minimum I think the cops should know before they go in is how many people are in the home and who(age) they are. If they know there's a baby in the house and they still lob explosives in there, that should be a crime. It's not like arresting this guy had to happen in a raid in the middle of the night ASAP. On the other hand, if a police department has a hard on for using their SWAT gear then they are not likely to stop and think. If it's a choice between a SWAT raid with grenades in the middle of the night, or arresting this guy out on the road the next time he goes out for a pack of smokes, there are police departments who would rather use the explosives.
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;44962069]If it's a choice between a SWAT raid with grenades in the middle of the night, or arresting this guy out on the road the next time he goes out for a pack of smokes, there are police departments who would rather use the explosives.[/QUOTE] And you know this how?
[QUOTE=Perfumly;44960823]When I said dope I meant any recreational drug. While your post sheds some light on the subject, I still disagree with assuming any fellow citizen who sells drugs and owns guns is going to be flat out willing to murder people. Not to mention cases like this happen far too often, where the objective is to stop someone from selling drugs, and what ends up happening is they've potentially ruined someone's life who hasn't even got to live yet. My main argument is simply that the war on drugs is not worth it.[/QUOTE] You went from hur dur all cops are bad to war on drugs is not worth it? Let me let you in on a secret...you gotta be the absolute biggest fucking idiot iv'e met in these forums by far. corruption exist everywhere, not just L.E, now stop acting like we're labelling you crazy, you just are really dumb and you tend to not think before you talk. [URL]http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/reminders-that-there-are-actually-good-cops-in-the-world[/URL] seriously, take a good look, notice some cops really really like helping people out.
Holy fuck that must have messed up that baby really bad seeing that flashbangs basically contain a pyrotechnic flash composition that contain metal powders and when this stuff ignites it throws extremely hot bright white flakes of metal everywhere which can cause serious burns and start fires. And I have my doubts that that baby is going to be able to hear properly let alone not come out of it with some kind of long lasting burn marks after this
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;44962069]I agree with you. If the plan calls for assaulting a private home in the middle of the night, the minimum I think the cops should know before they go in is how many people are in the home and who(age) they are. If they know there's a baby in the house and they still lob explosives in there, that should be a crime. It's not like arresting this guy had to happen in a raid in the middle of the night ASAP. On the other hand, if a police department has a hard on for using their SWAT gear then they are not likely to stop and think. If it's a choice between a SWAT raid with grenades in the middle of the night, or arresting this guy out on the road the next time he goes out for a pack of smokes, there are police departments who would rather use the explosives.[/QUOTE] And exactly how are they supposed to know if there is a baby in the house? This type of information is just not something you can easily have access to, they can't just type something into a computer and bring up everything to possibly know about the situation, this is no way at all the SWAT team or the police departments fault, the man had drugs and ILLEGAL (Apparently some people in this thread don't know the difference between legally and illegally owning weapons) weapons. Arrest the guy in public during the middle of the day? Absolutely not. Who's to say he's not going to pull a gun out and start shooting the second he sees cop cars, that would have been a danger to every civilian around them. Stop trying to defend the human garbage that are these parents, they kept their child in the same house as their drugs and illegal weapons and that's what happens, it's unfortunate that an innocent child is hurt because of the stupidity of their scumbag parents but this is in no way the SWAT teams fault.
[QUOTE=masterchief6;44962129][url]http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/reminders-that-there-are-actually-good-cops-in-the-world[/url] seriously, take a good look, notice some cops really really like helping people out.[/QUOTE] A great and powerful reminder that cops are people too
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;44962295]A great and powerful reminder that cops are people too[/QUOTE] I'm sure it was never implied that they weren't...
[QUOTE=reedbo;44962768]I'm sure it was never implied that they weren't...[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Perfumly;44951954]guilty until proven innocent. I'm tired of the argument that not all cops are bad. All cops are bad, whether they know it or not. All cops work for a completely corrupt entity. No respek.[/QUOTE]
Christ, you guys get hung up on such stupid little details in your desperate attempts to pick each other's posts apart. No, not all cops are automatically bad people, even though they do work for a largely corrupt system. At times they can be helpful. However, you either don't live in the US or your head is stuck under a rock tucked firmly up your asshole if you don't think the police force in America and the entire judicial system is in pretty dire shape.
[QUOTE=mugofdoom;44963278]Christ, you guys get hung up on such stupid little details in your desperate attempts to pick each other's posts apart. No, not all cops are automatically bad people, even though they do work for a largely corrupt system. At times they can be helpful. However, you either don't live in the US or your head is stuck under a rock tucked firmly up your asshole if you don't think the police force in America and the entire judicial system is in pretty dire shape.[/QUOTE] oh no, iam completely aware about U.S.A's corruption in law enforcement, just the type of behavior to just automatically label each cop as a power hungry shit head, is pretty pathetic and ridiculious
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;44951916]I've never understood the logic of "we [B]suspect[/B] he may have narcotics/firearms in his posession" So instead of getting a warrant, staking out his place, and arresting him when he goes to lunch and peacefully searching his home... ...y'kick the door in and shoot the dog (flashbang the baby in this case).[/QUOTE] S.W.A.T teams are executed on search warrants, they don't just kick down any door for no reasons, I'm sure he was a dangorous criminal with criminal history or ties to gangs.
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;44962069]I agree with you. If the plan calls for assaulting a private home in the middle of the night, the minimum I think the cops should know before they go in is how many people are in the home and who(age) they are. If they know there's a baby in the house and they still lob explosives in there, that should be a crime. It's not like arresting this guy had to happen in a raid in the middle of the night ASAP. On the other hand, if a police department has a hard on for using their SWAT gear then they are not likely to stop and think. If it's a choice between a SWAT raid with grenades in the middle of the night, or arresting this guy out on the road the next time he goes out for a pack of smokes, there are police departments who would rather use the explosives.[/QUOTE] You say explosives and grenades, but most swat teams and swat guys don't think of flashbangs in the same light that you do. SWAT tactics and gear are heavily "inspired" by the equipment that elite hostage rescue units used. For hostage rescue purposes, flashbangs were and are considered less than lethal. The number of big hostage rescue raids is relatively small, so instances in which innocents were hurt were few, and the possibility of hurting people with them seemed very minor. After all, if they hurt the captors it's better than the alternatives, and if they hurt only one hostage and allow the successful rescue of the others, the operation is considered a huge success. Yes, perhaps the swat team in question should have reconsidered the potential for harm to innocents when deploying flashbangs, but the law enforcement and military community tends to have a lot of institutional inertia, and it hasn't quite caught on that flashbangs have the potential to be dangerous. For example, read this [URL="http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/Push_or_Hold_8July09.pdf"]article[/URL] by Paul Howe, a well known trainer and Delta Force veteran. It raises a lot of the more intelligent points other people do in this thread, like doing a thorough recon before entry and not doing dynamic entry in order to effect an arrest, but at no point do Howe or his coauthor, a longtime SWAT veteran, seem to consider flashbangs as "dangerous." I don't mean to say they aren't, but the idea that flashbangs are "safe" has been around for 40 years and it's not going to go away easily, especially in the minds of men who have deployed them hundreds of times to no ill effect.
Here is what I find odd: [img]http://imageshack.com/a/img839/4335/sgrd.jpg[/img] So that is the play pen. Traditionally, if you open a door, you throw a flashbang in at about hip level in an underhanded toss. You don't want them to go very far because it is people right next to the door that are your biggest concern. You don't want the flash bang to roll into the next room. Play pens tend to be about hip level. So it is weird that it would land in the play pen. There is another common deployment for extremely high risk assaults where you bust out windows of the home and throw flashbangs in a bunch of windows, but that is like you know they are waiting for you kind of shit. It is the stuff you follow with tearing off one of the walls completely with a truck and a chain. That could likely land in a crib, but they explicitly say that this was one thrown from a doorway, which is why I find it odd. [url]http://imageshack.com/a/img842/8362/ydf29.jpg[/url] [I]Warning[/I]: Picture of the victim. Picture of the kid. It actually doesn't look nearly as bad as I figured. His face appears to have been burned, but not "ripped open". Meanwhile they bought drugs from the house earlier in the day and did their recon. [quote] Deputies said they bought drugs from the house, and came back with a no-knock warrant to arrest a man known to have drugs and weapons. “There was no clothes, no toys, nothing to indicate that there was children present in the home. If there had been then we'd have done something different,” Darby said. [/quote] So they knew he was an armed active drug dealer operating out of his house and a recon run earlier in the day had not revealed any children in the home. I'm pretty sure I'm not holding this one against the SWAT team.
[QUOTE=Te Great Skeeve;44960472]I have broken into your home and tied you to a bed using metal chains. You have a phone in your hand. It is only able to dial 911. A saw is slowly heading for your balls. (p.s paramedics and firefighters will be shot.)[/QUOTE] he'll use his muscles to break the chains and then subdue you by throwing all of his non-taxable income at your face instead of relying on the state for protection, at which point the walls of the room will begin to wobble and phase out of existence, revealing that the entire situation resides within one of ron paul's dreams
Man this thread was a fun read I learned a lot of crappy stuff about some Facepunchers I respected, and I found new respect for Facepunchers I didn't like
[QUOTE=Mr. Zombie;44966862]Man this thread was a fun read I learned a lot of crappy stuff about some Facepunchers I respected, and I found new respect for Facepunchers I didn't like[/QUOTE] I learnt that Parfumly is an idiot. I'm sure we can all walk away with that knowledge.
Wow some of the generalizations in this thread were stronger than that flashbang.
[QUOTE=RustledJimmys;44966868]I learnt that Parfumly is an idiot. I'm sure we can all walk away with that knowledge.[/QUOTE] all that star wars galaxies did something.
[QUOTE=KennyAwsum;44955003]"get a fuckin grip" Not the right way to react to something like this. What the hell is wrong with "It was just a Accident.", did you really have to exclaim that. Put yourself in the mother's situation then think before you say shit like that. "Oh Get over it", Fuck the hell off. A Child is Dead, people have a right to grieve.[/QUOTE] Casting blame on someone because of a horrific accident, you can grieve without being a prick y'know [editline]8th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=GunFox;44966795][/QUOTE] shit happens, for them to have known they were throwing it in a crib means he would have had to have looked in the room before tossing a flashbang (which isn't how it works) As for hiplevel playpen, could it not have bounced off an object or wall into the pen? Seems more plausible then doing it on purpose
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;44962069]I agree with you. If the plan calls for assaulting a private home in the middle of the night, the minimum I think the cops should know before they go in is how many people are in the home and who(age) they are. If they know there's a baby in the house and they still lob explosives in there, that should be a crime. It's not like arresting this guy had to happen in a raid in the middle of the night ASAP. On the other hand, if a police department has a hard on for using their SWAT gear then they are not likely to stop and think. If it's a choice between a SWAT raid with grenades in the middle of the night, or arresting this guy out on the road the next time he goes out for a pack of smokes, there are police departments who would rather use the explosives.[/QUOTE] I saw this argument a few times in this thread. You have to realize it is not all about making the arrest. Evidence is needed for trial. If they arrest the man in the middle of the day there will be time in between for evidence in the house to go missing. You also fail to mention that even after arresting the man, someone still needs to enter the home which can still harbor dangerous people. It sucks that a baby got flash banged, on the bright side maybe he will get a new home that is not filled with drugs and weapons.
Part of the problem is ego dick waving and budget justification. SWAT was originally developed in LA to deal with situations uniformed officers might not have the firepower, manpower or training to handle at a moment's notice. Since then, every county and his dog has a "SWAT" team, even when there is absolutely no actual need for one. Problem with that is, police assault groups eat up money like its going out of fashion, and this leads to budget shortfalls which produces poor training standards (check photo records from 1970-1990, not a single fat SWAT officer in sight, post 2000? Its like the tactical michelin man group in some areas), poor retention of skills and oversight. Some areas can't even maintain a full time SWAT capability, and yet still want to retain them. If you can't understand how ridiculous that is, that means you might be relying on someone to make a life saving shot, yet he might only have a handful of hours on a very poor range facility. It's dangerous.
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