[QUOTE=Sonador;48573726]Yes, I'm sure he just found himself at a gas station with a cop and a loaded firearm and just by happenstance decided it was a beautiful day to execute a police officer. Of course it was planned. Holy shit, do you even listen to yourself?
Every time I see you in threads like these you're taking the position of trying to justify the perp. Do you enjoy advocating cop killers and crime? That's just about what anyyone thinks about you at this point.[/QUOTE]
He is in no way whatsoever [I]justifying[/I] this. He is simply cautioning against attributing the actions of violent individuals to an entire race of people.
Killing cops is disgusting, and I'd hope nobody here is arguing otherwise, but you're not doing anybody any favors by continuing to propagate an [I]Us vs Them[/I] mentality by equating that anybody who criticizes police policies, actions, and histories [I]support murdering police officers[/I].
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;48583273]I don't care. Murder is never an acceptable response. To anything. This is the same as people citing poverty rates for why blacks murder more than whites. Yeah, that would explain a higher rate of robberies and what not. But I don't give a rats ass how poor you are. Murder is on a whole other level.[/QUOTE]
Your argument only demonstrates ignorance. Poverty breeds crime out of desperation and chaos. There is a lack of opportunity, a lack of security, a lack of hope. People grow up with nothing, see no way out, and turn to crimes of all flavors in order to try and grab a little piece of "success." They might steal, they might sell drugs, they might turn prostitution, they might do any number of things. In these conditions, organized crime is inevitable. Eventually, people realize they're more effective at these enterprises when they band together. Gangs form, establish territories, and go to whatever brutal lengths are necessary to protect and expand that territory. Gangs as a business are the product of poverty, and they use violence like other businesses use lawsuits. Ignoring the obvious link between poverty and violence is simply naive.
I'll remind you that in pointing this out, I am in no way saying that violence is [I]excusable[/I]. I am not arguing that is proper or acceptable. Merely that it is inevitable under the given conditions, and this is no way whatsoever unique to black people or modern America. There is historical evidence of violent organized gangs throughout every chapter of human history, from all nations, and across all races. This is not a "black people vs white people" argument. It is simply a call for you and others to understand the basic human condition before blindly blaming crime and violence on something so pointlessly fucking extraneous as a person's skin color. The only place that race realistically enters this scenario is the discussion of the history and conditions that led to black people becoming the primary demographic of the urban poor.
If you want to combat violent crime among minorities in the United States, then you need first to understand how poverty fits in the equation. That's all I'm trying to say here. Fighting crime [I]is[/I] fighting poverty. You can throw as many people as you want in jail, you can black people, you can curse the age we live in, but so long as there are economically destitute cities and counties ("ghettos"), there will be violent, organized crime. It is not the "black culture" we are fighting, it is the sad and eventual culture of poverty in general.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48583707]Your argument only demonstrates ignorance. Poverty breeds crime out of desperation and chaos. There is a lack of opportunity, a lack of security, a lack of hope. People grow up with nothing, see no way out, and turn to crimes of all flavors in order to try and grab a little piece of "success." They might steal, they might sell drugs, they might turn prostitution, they might do any number of things. In these conditions, organized crime is inevitable. Eventually, people realize they're more effective at these enterprises when they band together. Gangs form, establish territories, and go to whatever brutal lengths are necessary to protect and expand that territory. Gangs as a business are the product of poverty, and they use violence like other businesses use lawsuits. Ignoring the obvious link between poverty and violence is simply naive.
I'll remind you that in pointing this out, I am in no way saying that violence is [I]excusable[/I]. I am not arguing that is proper or acceptable. Merely that it is inevitable under the given conditions, and this is no way whatsoever unique to black people or modern America. There is historical evidence of violent organized gangs throughout every chapter of human history, from all nations, and across all races. This is not a "black people vs white people" argument. It is simply a call for you and others to understand the basic human condition before blindly blaming crime and violence on something so pointlessly fucking extraneous as a person's skin color. The only place that race realistically enters this scenario is the discussion of the history and conditions that led to black people becoming the primary demographic of the urban poor.
If you want to combat violent crime among minorities in the United States, then you need first to understand how poverty fits in the equation. That's all I'm trying to say here. Fighting crime [I]is[/I] fighting poverty. You can throw as many people as you want in jail, you can black people, you can curse the age we live in, but so long as there are economically destitute cities and counties ("ghettos"), there will be violent, organized crime. It is not the "black culture" we are fighting, it is the sad and eventual culture of poverty in general.[/QUOTE]
Good job generalizing him just as much as you suspect he was generalizing an entire race. The only thing he brought into it race wise was comparing it to other people using poverty rates for black on white murders.
All hes saying is that you can never excuse murder. You can understand it, know why it happened, but never excuse it.
I don't know why you felt the need to write so much on a thing that is pretty damn clear to almost everyone living in the United States.
[QUOTE=Inspector Jones;48573037]Constantly, people are being bombarded with stories of bad apples, crooked cops, etc and in most of these cases they get off consequence free.
[/QUOTE]
Or, more often than not with previous big name cases, a "wrongful" shooting or arrest or etc. is picked up on by the media, people look up a bunch of half-truths about it, or just blatantly assume cops are in the wrong, and run with it. And then, when actual evidence comes out and their agenda is challenged, they just babble "b-uh-buh-Blue Shield!!!" and chalk it up to police state instead of considering maybe their perfect son, neighbor, etc. Wasn't the Honor Student/Eagle scout on their way to a Ivy League scholarship they thought they were.
The attitude many citizens have taken regarding officers in big PDs is sickening and hypocritical.
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;48584556]Good job generalizing him just as much as you suspect he was generalizing an entire race. The only thing he brought into it race wise was comparing it to other people using poverty rates for black on white murders.
All hes saying is that you can never excuse murder. You can understand it, know why it happened, but never excuse it.
I don't know why you felt the need to write so much on a thing that is pretty damn clear to almost everyone living in the United States.[/QUOTE]
I think you might have missed this part.
[quote]I'll remind you that in pointing this out, I am in no way saying that violence is excusable. I am not arguing that is proper or acceptable. Merely that it is inevitable under the given conditions, and this is no way whatsoever unique to black people or modern America.[/quote]
[editline]31st August 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=evilweazel;48584862]Or, more often than not with previous big name cases, a "wrongful" shooting or arrest or etc. is picked up on by the media, people look up a bunch of half-truths about it, or just blatantly assume cops are in the wrong, and run with it. And then, when actual evidence comes out and their agenda is challenged, they just babble "b-uh-buh-Blue Shield!!!" and chalk it up to police state instead of considering maybe their perfect son, neighbor, etc. Wasn't the Honor Student/Eagle scout on their way to a Ivy League scholarship they thought they were.
The attitude many citizens have taken regarding officers in big PDs is sickening and hypocritical.[/QUOTE]
What is it that you believe is responsible for this attitude towards the police? What do you think would solve it?
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48583707]Your argument only demonstrates ignorance. Poverty breeds crime out of desperation and chaos. There is a lack of opportunity, a lack of security, a lack of hope. People grow up with nothing, see no way out, and turn to crimes of all flavors in order to try and grab a little piece of "success." They might steal, they might sell drugs, they might turn prostitution, they might do any number of things. In these conditions, organized crime is inevitable. Eventually, people realize they're more effective at these enterprises when they band together. Gangs form, establish territories, and go to whatever brutal lengths are necessary to protect and expand that territory. Gangs as a business are the product of poverty, and they use violence like other businesses use lawsuits. Ignoring the obvious link between poverty and violence is simply naive.
I'll remind you that in pointing this out, I am in no way saying that violence is [I]excusable[/I]. I am not arguing that is proper or acceptable. Merely that it is inevitable under the given conditions, and this is no way whatsoever unique to black people or modern America. There is historical evidence of violent organized gangs throughout every chapter of human history, from all nations, and across all races. This is not a "black people vs white people" argument. It is simply a call for you and others to understand the basic human condition before blindly blaming crime and violence on something so pointlessly fucking extraneous as a person's skin color. The only place that race realistically enters this scenario is the discussion of the history and conditions that led to black people becoming the primary demographic of the urban poor.
If you want to combat violent crime among minorities in the United States, then you need first to understand how poverty fits in the equation. That's all I'm trying to say here. Fighting crime [I]is[/I] fighting poverty. You can throw as many people as you want in jail, you can black people, you can curse the age we live in, but so long as there are economically destitute cities and counties ("ghettos"), there will be violent, organized crime. It is not the "black culture" we are fighting, it is the sad and eventual culture of poverty in general.[/QUOTE]
I disagree with your argument on poverty. Appalachia is a "white ghetto" and the rate of crime there is significantly lower than the national average.
[quote]Chief Logsdon has time to indulge his hobbies because the Big White Ghetto is different from most other ghettos in one very important way: There’s not much violent crime here.[/quote]
[quote]There’s a great deal of drug use, welfare fraud, and the like, but the [b]overall crime rate throughout Appalachia is about two-thirds the national average, and the rate of violent crime is half the national average[/b][/quote]
[url]http://www.nationalreview.com/article/367903/white-ghetto-kevin-d-williamson[/url]
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;48584556]Good job generalizing him just as much as you suspect he was generalizing an entire race. The only thing he brought into it race wise was comparing it to other people using poverty rates for black on white murders.
All hes saying is that you can never excuse murder. You can understand it, know why it happened, but never excuse it.
I don't know why you felt the need to write so much on a thing that is pretty damn clear to almost everyone living in the United States.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. You basically responded on my behalf perfectly. Of course I understand why violent crime goes up in areas with a lot of poverty. It's even ethically excusable in some cases (i.e. If robbing a liquor store is literally the only option you have to feed your family, it's semi-excusable imo. You would be a monster for [i]not[/i] doing it.) But murder is on a whole different level.
Again, I understand why murder rates are linked to poverty rates, but I can't excuse it even in the slightest.
[QUOTE=Lamar;48585119]I disagree with your argument on poverty. Appalachia is a "white ghetto" and the rate of crime there is significantly lower than the national average.
[url]http://www.nationalreview.com/article/367903/white-ghetto-kevin-d-williamson[/url][/QUOTE]
[quote]Chief Logsdon has time to indulge his hobbies because the Big White Ghetto is different from most other ghettos in one very important way: There’s not much violent crime here.[/quote]
There are exceptions to every rule. Those exceptions do not disprove the wider observable trend. The article itself even notes that. Furthermore, there is a critical difference here between the types of places we're talking about: geography and population density. Low density rural towns, like those in your article, are simply not comparable to dense urban areas, as those have massively different circumstances and challenges in place. The town you're citing, Booneville Kentucky, has a population of [I]eighty people.[/i]The [B]entire county[/B] has a population of only 4600. Compare that to the urban sprawl of Saint Louis county, at just over 1 million people, and the discrepancy in violent and organized crime becomes a bit more clear. In these urban areas, traditional crimes of desperation and hopelessness occur on a massive scale.
Just to further highlight the inappropriateness of this comparison:
[quote]There used to be two movie theaters here — a regular cinema and a drive-in. Both are long gone. The nearest Walmart is nearly an hour away. There’s no bookstore, the nearest Barnes & Noble being 55 miles away and the main source of reading matter being the horrifying/hilarious crime blotter in the local weekly newspaper. Within living memory, this town had three grocery stores, a Western Auto and a Napa Auto Parts, a feed store, a lumber store, a clothing shop, a Chrysler dealership, a used-car dealership, a skating rink — even a discotheque, back in the 1970s. Today there is one grocery store, and the rest is as dead as disco. If you want a newsstand or a dinner at Applebee’s, gas up the car. Amazon may help, but delivery can be tricky — the nearest UPS drop-box is 17 miles away, the nearest FedEx office 34 miles away.[/quote]
Other than that, all your example does is highlight many of the points I already made. Drug and alcohol abuse is damn near pandemic in these areas. Prostitution and theft also make up large markets. These are the things that thrive in deeply povertous areas. The primary different between this area and Saint Louis or Detroit is a massive difference in relative population density and urbanization. This is all to mention nothing of systemic racism and a longstanding history of targeted prejudice against black people, which dramatically exacerbates already serious issues.
[editline]31st August 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;48585624]Thank you. You basically responded on my behalf perfectly. Of course I understand why violent crime goes up in areas with a lot of poverty. It's even ethically excusable in some cases (i.e. If robbing a liquor store is literally the only option you have to feed your family, it's semi-excusable imo. You would be a monster for [i]not[/i] doing it.) But murder is on a whole different level.
Again, I understand why murder rates are linked to poverty rates, but I can't excuse it even in the slightest.[/QUOTE]
If I misunderstood your personal position then I apologize-- consider what I said to be directed at the many, many people who [I]do[/I] make that argument on a daily basis. It is an historically popular belief that the reason why poor, urban areas have high crimes rates is because [I]black people live in them,[/I] not that they are poor and urban. Sadly, this prejudice only deepens tensions and further damns the affected areas. This "white people vs black people" shit has been going on since the dawn of the United States, and every morning I wake up and see it continued it just boggles my mind that we still haven't overcome it in the year 2015. We're supposed to have cured all diseases and taken to space with teleporting starliners and shit by now-- or at the very least put to rest the disgustingly archaic notion that race determines quality of character.
Utterly senseless violence, my sincerest condolences to his family and friends.
[QUOTE=Lamar;48585119]I disagree with your argument on poverty. Appalachia is a "white ghetto" and the rate of crime there is significantly lower than the national average.
[url]http://www.nationalreview.com/article/367903/white-ghetto-kevin-d-williamson[/url][/QUOTE]
Appalachia is rural, and crime rates in rural areas are always significantly lower than crime rates in urban areas. There is a lower police presence, so lower numbers of arrests. There is a lower population, so fewer people to commit crimes against. People are spread further apart, so less likely to interact in a criminal fashion. Gangs are far less likely to form, because there's fewer people and too much "territory" to realistically cover.
There has been a lot of study into the difference between rural and urban crime. There are more than twice as many people living in Chicago as there are in the entire state of West Virginia. If you count the Chicago metro area, the city by itself has more people than all of Virginia and West Virginia combined. It should be no surprise that the crime rate is significantly higher in areas with denser populations.
National Review is also an editorial website that shouldn't be used as an actual source - it's no different than citing Fox News as your evidence.
The funeral is today: [url]http://www.khou.com/story/news/local/2015/09/04/deputy-darren-goforth-friday-funeral-coverage/71692978/[/url]
7000 expected to attend.
11,000 attended.
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