• 15 year old girl from Arkansas dead after prank gone wrong
    211 replies, posted
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;43954274]People are only concerned about the short term. Nobody ever thinks about the long-term implications of laws like this being passed.[/QUOTE] Yeah and guess where being concerned with the short-term got this guy? A first degree murder charge because he rushed out of his house and opened fire on fleeing kids. Guess where your idea that these kids should still be charged with vandalism lies? Short term. These kids now have to get up every day and realize that one of their close friends was murdered and they probably saw it happen. They get up every morning and remember the experience of being shot at by some over-reacting cock. They probably relive this experience every night when they sleep. What fucking good does a little community service do them now? They're punished for the rest of their damn lives. The cost of going to a psychologist alone is more than they would be paying for this crime.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;43954169]i support gun rights and i think this guy is psychotic. the only time i would personally find it acceptable at all to take someone's life is in self-defense, even then only as the very last resort. i couldn't imagine killing someone over property, that's just insane to me[/QUOTE] The guy is clearly a nut and needs to be put away, but self defense and property is still a slippery slope. Having your car egged is one thing, but if it was something that affected your livelihood in extreme circumstances it'd be a case by case basis.
[QUOTE=arleitiss;43953830]we don't know the backstory of all this, maybe that guys car/house was egged for past few months, and this time he just snapped. Anyways I hope this case makes parents talk to their retarded children who do shit like this.[/QUOTE] They only did it once. It was a revenge prank for what he did to them on Halloween.
[QUOTE=draugur;43954272]So explain to me why they deserve to be charged with vandalism, what does making them do community service really fucking solve? "Oh, you were acting stupid and now one of your friends is dead, you also all nearly lost your lives because of it. Time to do some petty community service as punishment." I don't think you really understand how being in a potential life/death situation effects people. I can tell you from the standpoint of being someone that has had a gun put to their head by a drunk asshole AND shot at (not by the same person though.), it sticks with you for a LONG time. I have nightmares still about nearly being killed, and no I didn't do anything even remotely illegal to be in those positions.[/QUOTE] Because we don't get to pick and choose the law. We don't get to let criminal activity go unpunished because we feel bad. And this isn't like a homeless person stealing a loaf of bread, either. They still went out of their way to damage property for kicks, or by some perverse sense of vigilante justice seeing as you pointed out that it was a "Retaliation" prank. They still participated in criminal activity. They're criminals. Why do we get to ignore that because a tragedy happened? Why should the law throw a pity party? Are they somehow now retroactively justified in their crime? Are we implying that the kid being murdered and the subsequent psychological damage is justice and that no further justice is necessary? Are we to spout more of this "teens will be teens" nonsense? [editline]17th February 2014[/editline] Crimes are crimes. And I don't care how shitty the criminal's life is. It's not justifiable to damage property for fun.
[QUOTE=Death_God;43953512]to be fair i dont think he should have been charged with first degree murder at the least this is more manslaughter or 2nd degree murder[/QUOTE] I'd say second degree murder. He shouldn't get first degree unless he plotted to kill them. It's entirely likely he was incredibly pissed off and shot at them to run em off, but actually hit them. Manslaughter is very different, you'd have to be so fucking pissed that you'd lose your mind. Basically reverting to primal rage and instincts. Second degree murder is more like a random killing, no plotting or planning, just killing, but you'd still be in the right state of mind to not kill. First is plotting it out, mapping locations or just standing at the door with a gun, waiting for them to show up.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;43954325]Because we don't get to pick and choose the law. We don't get to let criminal activity go unpunished because we feel bad. And this isn't like a homeless person stealing a loaf of bread, either. They still went out of their way to damage property for kicks, or by some perverse sense of vigilante justice seeing as you pointed out that it was a "Retaliation" prank. They still participated in criminal activity. They're criminals. Why do we get to ignore that because a tragedy happened? Why should the law throw a pity party? Are they somehow now retroactively justified in their crime? Are we implying that the kid being murdered is justice and that no further justice is necessary? Are we to spout more of this "teens will be teens" nonsense?[/QUOTE] The law isn't black and white. People like you that think it is need to grow up. The law is a blanket set of guidelines that are to be enacted in IDEAL circumstances. Murder, aka, killing another human being is illegal, but there's circumstances where murder in self defense is okay, even self defense by proxy. By your argument of everything being black and white, we should have no exceptions for any murder, if you kill someone, you are a murderer, regardless of what circumstances caused you to murder them. You saved that poor girl being raped by killing the rapist? Too fucking bad, you're a murderer. You killed the guy raping you? Too fucking bad, you're a murderer. And yes, this is even a law set. The Model Penal Code, a set of laws set in 1962 says that, "murder is any killing committed purposefully and knowingly." AKA, self defense, is by LAW, murder. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_Penal_Code[/url] Though not all of the MPC is law in any state, over two thirds of the states use parts of it in their laws.
[QUOTE=draugur;43954355]The law isn't black and white. People like you that think it is need to grow up. The law is a blanket set of guidelines that are to be enacted in IDEAL circumstances. Murder, aka, killing another human being is illegal, but there's circumstances where murder in self defense is okay, even self defense by proxy. By your argument of everything being black and white, we should have no exceptions for any murder, if you kill someone, you are a murderer, regardless of what circumstances caused you to murder them. You saved that poor girl being raped by killing the rapist? Too fucking bad, you're a murderer. You killed the guy raping you? Too fucking bad, you're a murderer.[/QUOTE] Except there are stipulations in the law for those exact situations just so that it IS black and white.
[QUOTE=draugur;43954355]The law isn't black and white. People like you that think it is need to grow up. The law is a blanket set of guidelines that are to be enacted in IDEAL circumstances. Murder, aka, killing another human being is illegal, but there's circumstances where murder in self defense is okay, even self defense by proxy. By your argument of everything being black and white, we should have no exceptions for any murder, if you kill someone, you are a murderer, regardless of what circumstances caused you to murder them. You saved that poor girl being raped by killing the rapist? Too fucking bad, you're a murderer. You killed the guy raping you? Too fucking bad, you're a murderer.[/QUOTE] I can see how murder in self defense can be an example of the law being "malleable"; somebody was in immediate danger, so somebody put and end to the danger with like force. What I don't understand is how being murdered for vandalism somehow retroactively makes the crime not a crime. I need clarification there. [editline]17th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;43954364]Except there are stipulations in the law for those exact situations just so that it IS black and white.[/QUOTE] This too. I decided to play ball anyway, we can pretend that the law is malleable, sure. It doesn't matter.
[QUOTE=LordCrypto;43954255]time to take this example all the way down if today the united states of america said "guns are banned, producing/importing firearms into usa is a crime, owning them is a crime but we won't do anything unless you commit an additional crime" in 40 years of seizing all criminal related weapons and melting them into bars you'll kinda be preventing people from owning guns[/QUOTE] Alcohol consumption/production/transportation was illegal in the US for 13 years by constitutional amendment from 1920-1933. Guess what? People still made/consumed/transported alcohol during this time. Thanks to the falling costs of 3D printers and lathes, you can manufacture guns in your garage. And even if you don't have these, you can make crude guns with parts from any local hardware store. You can also make your own ammunition and gunpowder. This goes back to what I said about "just because the government makes a law, doesn't mean everyone will follow it to the crossed T and dotted i".
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;43954374]I can see how murder in self defense can be an example of the law being "malleable"; somebody was in immediate danger, so somebody put and end to the danger with like force. What I don't understand is how being murdered for vandalism somehow retroactively makes the crime not a crime. I need clarification there. [editline]17th February 2014[/editline] This too. I decided to play ball anyway, we can pretend that the law is malleable, sure. It doesn't matter.[/QUOTE] I never said it wasn't a crime. I just said that they have already been punished more than enough for their crime. It's the same as charging someone who killed someone in self-defense with murder. They have already been punished enough by their circumstances, there is no reason to charge them with the murder. They have already experienced what would be worse than the punishment for said crime.
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;43954393]Alcohol consumption/production/transportation was illegal in the US for 13 years by constitutional amendment from 1920-1933. Guess what? People still made/consumed/transported alcohol during this time. Thanks to the falling costs of 3D printers and lathes, you can manufacture guns in your garage. And even if you don't have these, you can make crude guns with parts from any local hardware store. You can also make your own ammunition and gunpowder. This goes back to what I said about "just because the government makes a law, doesn't mean everyone will follow it to the crossed T and dotted i".[/QUOTE] Good luck making a gun from a 3D printer that doesn't explode after 2 shots. But yeah, banning them just means people will go through different means to get firearms. I have the parts to make several zip-guns in my tool shed right now, some thick steel pipe, nails and pipe endcaps. I had a book of the history of guns, and people made guns out of everything, i saw what was a spent 20mm casing wired to a carved block of wood with a hole for a match and is filled like a muzzleloading handgun.
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;43954393]Alcohol consumption/production/transportation was illegal in the US for 13 years by constitutional amendment from 1920-1933. Guess what? People still made/consumed/transported alcohol during this time. Thanks to the falling costs of 3D printers and lathes, you can manufacture guns in your garage. And even if you don't have these, you can make crude guns with parts from any local hardware store. You can also make your own ammunition and gunpowder. This goes back to what I said about "just because the government makes a law, doesn't mean everyone will follow it to the crossed T and dotted i".[/QUOTE] To make alcohol all you need is something to ferment, yeast, and time. It doesn't take considerable skill. Hell, nature does it randomly every now and again without any human input (recently I opened a box of apple juice at work and could smell something funky - pulled all four bottles out, one of them had a TINY puncture hole in it and as a result the apple juice had fermented). Making a proper, functioning gun that isn't going to break rather quickly requires [I]considerable[/I] skill and patience. You're comparing... well, I'd say apples and oranges, but no, you're comparing apples and guns. They're even MORE different. Also, as I pointed out in another thread a few minutes ago, [QUOTE=sltungle;43954145]You can also, y'know, make explosives pretty easily at home. That doesn't mean we should allow your average citizen to purchase explosives even with some license. There's a heap of dangerous stuff you can make at home - just because you can doesn't mean you should, and just because you can make something it doesn't mean all of a sudden it might as well be made easier to acquire by simply going out and purchasing it.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;43954393]Alcohol consumption/production/transportation was illegal in the US for 13 years by constitutional amendment from 1920-1933. Guess what? People still made/consumed/transported alcohol during this time. Thanks to the falling costs of 3D printers and lathes, you can manufacture guns in your garage. And even if you don't have these, you can make crude guns with parts from any local hardware store. You can also make your own ammunition and gunpowder. This goes back to what I said about "just because the government makes a law, doesn't mean everyone will follow it to the crossed T and dotted i".[/QUOTE] i can take some yeast sugar and fruit juice and throw it in a container for a week and have some booze manufacturing a firearm is a tiddly bit more complicated and difficult - and i highly doubt you have any idea what goes in to loading rounds lmfao, it's a tiresome process
[QUOTE=Tuskin;43953508]"one count of a terroristic act" What exactly qualifies as a "terroristic act[/QUOTE] Anything they want, baby.
There was a situation kinda similar that occurred in my general area, some little shits went on a house break in spree and one of them was shot by a older gentleman, the teen died a little while later. The original story about this was that he shot them as they were running away, then after some further investigation it showed that the group attempted to bum rush the dude. Not defending this guy here, but all I'm saying is wait until this story unfolds a little. There maybe more to it then what we are hearing at this point.
[QUOTE=LordCrypto;43953888]to respond to your previous robber being let off the hook because friend got killed burglary carries the assumption that you could be responded to with lethal force misdemeanor vandalism doesn't[/QUOTE] Actually I never got around to responding to this. As far as I know (I may be wrong, please correct me if I'm wrong,) It is illegal in America for a civilian to shoot at a thief as the thief is fleeing and is no longer on the property. [editline]17th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=draugur;43954400]I never said it wasn't a crime. I just said that they have already been punished more than enough for their crime. It's the same as charging someone who killed someone in self-defense with murder. They have already been punished enough by their circumstances, there is no reason to charge them with the murder. They have already experienced what would be worse than the punishment for said crime.[/QUOTE] I don't believe that their friend being murdered is a just punishment and I believe that it should not be recognized by a court of law as such. That opens up a nasty can of worms.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;43954431]Except it doesn't. It takes about 15$ worth of piping, a dremil, a drill with metal bits, and some nails and springs. There are numerous guides on the internet and in print on how to do it.[/QUOTE] It won't be a very efficient gun.
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;43954393] make your own gunpowder. [/QUOTE] There's a very good reason why many of the people that made gunpowder back when it was common to do so died or lost their hands/were disfigured in some way. Not to mention that it's not really possible for you to make the same smokeless powder in cartridges these days. Black powder, maybe, but the new shit, no, not with any sort of cost-effective and reliable way sort of mass production.
[QUOTE=zombini;43954403]Good luck making a gun from a 3D printer that doesn't explode after 2 shots. But yeah, banning them just means people will go through different means to get firearms. I have the parts to make several zip-guns in my tool shed right now, some thick steel pipe, nails and pipe endcaps. I had a book of the history of guns, and people made guns out of everything, i saw what was a spent 20mm casing wired to a carved block of wood with a hole for a match and is filled like a muzzleloading handgun.[/QUOTE] 3D printing technology and techniques are improving daily. There will be a day where you can "print" a reliable weapon that won't self destruct. You could also use a combination of 3D printer and a lathe. Use the lathe to make a strong barrel and the 3D printer to make the more intricate parts. I think the primary reason that printed guns self destruct is because the barrel is too weak to contain the explosive forces of the expanding gas in the barrel before the bullet exits.
lol at people saying the kids shouldn't have been vandalizing this guys property like the loss of some kids life because some psychopath shot them? nah not nearly as important as the fact [I]they were egging his house[/I]
[QUOTE=draugur;43954437]There's a very good reason why many of the people that made gunpowder back when it was common to do so died or lost their hands/were disfigured in some way. Not to mention that it's not really possible for you to make the same smokeless powder in cartridges these days. Black powder, maybe, but the new shit, no, not with any sort of cost-effective and reliable way sort of mass production.[/QUOTE] People will always be able to make guns. It's just gonna be highly impractical, dangerous, and not at all worth the effort for most criminals.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;43954431]Except it doesn't. It takes about 15$ worth of piping, a dremil, a drill with metal bits, and some nails and springs. There are numerous guides on the internet and in print on how to do it.[/QUOTE] It still requires some level of dexterity and fine motor skills and that's a LOT more than is needed to brew up some alcohol.
[QUOTE=sltungle;43954411]To make alcohol all you need is something to ferment, yeast, and time. It doesn't take considerable skill. Hell, nature does it randomly every now and again without any human input (recently I opened a box of apple juice at work and could smell something funky - pulled all four bottles out, one of them had a TINY puncture hole in it and as a result the apple juice had fermented). Making a proper, functioning gun that isn't going to break rather quickly requires [I]considerable[/I] skill and patience. You're comparing... well, I'd say apples and oranges, but no, you're comparing apples and guns. They're even MORE different. Also, as I pointed out in another thread a few minutes ago,[/QUOTE] Explosives and guns are not even comparable. One is intended for destroying structures and causing large amounts of damage over a large area and has no practical use for the average civilian. Firearms are useful for hunting for food, self-defense and leisure time. Both are designed to kill, but one is only intended to kill one thing at a time, not 20. Plus banning guns will lead to people making them at home, resulting in injuries from failed designs, plus it makes everyone who owns a gun a criminal. Also, making drinkable alcohol is not that easy, if you're desperate enough, you can ferment apple juice and drink the really disgusting result. Or you can set up a still and make proper drinking alcohol that is denser(in terms of alcohol content) than fermented apple juice and easier to transport, which was extremely common during Prohibition.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;43954448]The sten is a very efficient gun. So are the numerous clones of it.[/QUOTE] Most criminals will not have the resources necessary with their trip down to the home depot to make a custom gun on the quality level of a Sten.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;43954431]Except it doesn't. It takes about 15$ worth of piping, a dremil, a drill with metal bits, and some nails and springs. There are numerous guides on the internet and in print on how to do it.[/QUOTE] There's a reason that I don't have to go through a background check to buy my black powder rifles. It's because they're not at all a threat to society. I could maybe take down like, two or three people with it before I'm completely fucked. A zipgun would be about the same. Also good luck with that, enjoy it exploding in your face. There's a reason that you never hear of criminals in the news going on killing sprees with zipguns, or anyone even robbing a store with one.
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;43954444]3D printing technology and techniques are improving daily. There will be a day where you can "print" a reliable weapon that won't self destruct. You could also use a combination of 3D printer and a lathe. Use the lathe to make a strong barrel and the 3D printer to make the more intricate parts. I think the primary reason that printed guns self destruct is because the barrel is too weak to contain the explosive forces of the expanding gas in the barrel before the bullet exits.[/QUOTE] Your average person can't afford a lathe for making barrels.
[QUOTE=draugur;43954460]There's a reason that I don't have to go through a background check to buy my black powder rifles. It's because they're not at all a threat to society. I could maybe take down like, two or three people with it before I'm completely fucked. A zipgun would be about the same. Also good luck with that, enjoy it exploding in your face. There's a reason that you never hear of criminals in the news going on killing sprees with zipguns, or anyone even robbing a store with one.[/QUOTE] At that point you're better off taking the pipe and sharpening it up real nice to make a knife or spear or something.
[QUOTE=zombini;43954457]Explosives and guns are not even comparable. One is intended for destroying structures and causing large amounts of damage over a large area and has no practical use for the average civilian. Firearms are useful for hunting for food, self-defense and leisure time. Both are designed to kill, but one is only intended to kill one thing at a time, not 20. Plus banning guns will lead to people making them at home, resulting in injuries from failed designs, plus it makes everyone who owns a gun a criminal. Also, making drinkable alcohol is not that easy, if you're desperate enough, you can ferment apple juice and drink the really disgusting result. Or you can set up a still and make proper drinking alcohol that is denser(in terms of alcohol content) than fermented apple juice and easier to transport, which was extremely common during Prohibition.[/QUOTE] Uhh, who's to say you can't use explosives leisurely? Blowing shit up is fun. Who are you to tell me I can't enjoy that?
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;43954458]Most criminals will not have the resources necessary with their trip down to the home depot to make a custom gun on the quality level of a Sten.[/QUOTE] In WWII, a common school shop project was making Sten guns.
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;43954240]Since when does gun control (excuse me, [I]strict[/I] gun control) prevent people from possessing guns? Just because the government says you're not allowed to have something, doesn't mean that everyone is going to follow it to the crossed T and dotted i. And you have a problem of selective reading syndrome. I say "anything" and you automatically replace "anything" with "gun". If you commit a crime (which is what these children did) you should fully expect the consequences for your actions, which can be [I]anything.[/I] It could be from absolutely nothing happening to getting dead/shot/stabbed/maimed/revenge/etc. [I]It does not have to make sense[/I], and trying to make sense of it is just going to get you worked up and angry. Accept that the tragedy happened and do things in the future to avoid things like this from happening again.[/QUOTE] Oh yeah. I would [I]NEVER[/I] suggest doing anything like that in my neighborhood/most places in my city. You just don't know what someone will do. Could have someone give me a beer and laugh, could have someone shoot me (fairly likely), or stab me, or call the cops. The point is you really don't know how said person is going to react. It just isn't advisable to go around pissing people off. Should this guy eat a bag of dicks? ABSOLUTELY. Should these teens have been egging and TP-ing his car? [I]Hell no [/I]
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