Wind and wave energies are probably not renewable after all
244 replies, posted
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;29011480]This just in, no fucking shit. Your building giant turbines which disrupt the path of wind, and in some cases actually fully eliminate wind channels, and your telling me they just found out now how bad it is. Gee... No shit.[/QUOTE]
People have enough difficulty accepting that humanity can even affect the climate in any significant way.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;28997170]Fusion and Throium are still nuclear power they just produce much less radiation. I also think we should keep plutonium as it pretty much replaces the fuel it uses.[/QUOTE]
Thorium and fusion are ultra safe when compared to most other power source, but, yes.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;29008808]The hassle with geothermal is finding a location to build a plant, it's only really viable as a primary energy source for some Nordic countries.[/QUOTE]Iceland, specifically. Isn't particularly viable for the rest of us, since we're nowhere near plate boundaries. In Finland in particular, the rock is very thick and dense.
This is bullshit, of someone who doesnt understand The way the weather system (or thermodynamics) works.
Also:
Max Planck Institute for Biogeochemistry.
What does that have to do with renewable energy via mechanical means? Wind/Water.
[QUOTE=taipan;29013703]This is bullshit, [b]of someone who doesnt understand The way the weather system (or thermodynamics) works.[/b]
Also:
Max Planck Institute for Biogeochemistry.
What does that have to do with renewable energy via mechanical means? Wind/Water.[/QUOTE]There's your problem right there. Stop posting until you do.
[quote]solar panels giving off heat radiation which cannot escape the atmosphere, contributing to global warming[/quote]
Wat
:v:
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;29013737]There's your problem right there. Stop posting until you do.[/QUOTE]
I know thermodynamics, third year mechanical Engineering student at the University of Rotterdam.
For the weather systems, i know ungrounded bullshit when I see it.
Energy balance for all devices (including the whole earth)
[B]Energy added=Storage+energy lost.[/B]
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/57911main_Earth_Energy_Budget.jpg[/img]
[B]Energy Added:[/B]
-The energy hitting the earth is around 20.000 times larger than our total energy consumption. Most of this energy is reflected back or heats the earth, which then radiates it back to space.
-Photovoltaic cells do produce heat if you count in that a black surface takes up more heat than a white dessert. (PV cells have around a 14 -20% yield)
-Wind is caused by Low and high pressure systems which are caused by cold and warm air hitting each other. High pressure systems are caused by warm air dropping in height and then being warmed by a adiabatic process due the higher pressure there. Typical high pressure systems last around 2-3 weeks.
Wind mills don’t stop the creation of wind they only increase its depletion. PV cells even increase the chance of a high pressure system happening due to them trapping heat on earth instead of reflecting it back.
[B](Focussed on renewable energy)
Energy Lost:[/B]
-All devices create heat as a by product not just wind and water mills. This heat generation will only result in lower yield, and the generated heat will eventually be transferred back into wind energy (high pressure system) or radiated back into space.
-Energy "drained” by windmills isn’t lost (it stays on earth) and will be partially given back later in the cycle in the form of heat and therefore wind.
-Energy created by the flow of rivers isn’t even depleting anything except for the speed of the river. Which doesn’t cause any problems to any weather system.
-energy gets radiated back into space in the form of light and heat.
[B]Storage:
[/B]-The storage is the current winds, warmth, flows, Light, electricity etc on earth.
[B]Conclusion:[/B]
If he has a calculation that can accurately describe an energy balance for all of these elements I really love to see it. The only thing he has now is a guess of the amount of energy Lost trough us, which is only 1:20.000 of the actual solar energy hitting us. Where does the rest go?
Even if we try to act green we screw up. God dammit.
[QUOTE=taipan;29015204]I know thermodynamics, third year mechanical Engineering student at the University of Rotterdam.
For the weather systems, i know ungrounded bullshit when I see it.
Energy balance for all devices (including the whole earth)
[B]Energy added=Storage+energy lost.[/B]
[img_thumb]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/57911main_Earth_Energy_Budget.jpg[/img_thumb]
[B]Energy Added:[/B]
-The energy hitting the earth is around 20.000 times larger than our total energy consumption. Most of this energy is reflected back or heats the earth, which then radiates it back to space.
-Photovoltaic cells do produce heat if you count in that a black surface takes up more heat than a white dessert. (PV cells have around a 14 -20% yield)
-Wind is caused by Low and high pressure systems which are caused by cold and warm air hitting each other. High pressure systems are caused by warm air dropping in height and then being warmed by a adiabatic process due the higher pressure there. Typical high pressure systems last around 2-3 weeks.
Wind mills don’t stop the creation of wind they only increase its depletion. PV cells even increase the chance of a high pressure system happening due to them trapping heat on earth instead of reflecting it back.
[B](Focussed on renewable energy)
Energy Lost:[/B]
-All devices create heat as a by product not just wind and water mills. This heat generation will only result in lower yield, and the generated heat will eventually be transferred back into wind energy (high pressure system) or radiated back into space.
-Energy "drained” by windmills isn’t lost (it stays on earth) and will be partially given back later in the cycle in the form of heat and therefore wind.
-Energy created by the flow of rivers isn’t even depleting anything except for the speed of the river. Which doesn’t cause any problems to any weather system.
-energy gets radiated back into space in the form of light and heat.
[B]Storage:
[/B]-The storage is the current winds, warmth, flows, Light, electricity etc on earth.
[B]Conclusion:[/B]
If he has a calculation that can accurately describe an energy balance for all of these elements I really love to see it. The only thing he has now is a guess of the amount of energy Lost trough us, which is only 1:20.000 of the actual solar energy hitting us. Where does the rest go?[/QUOTE]
did you even read the paper before calling it ungrounded bullshit
Yes.
And i would love to see this calculation he has, as it would probably be as bad as some of the other bulllshit he is saying.
They used the Planet Simulator of the Meteorological Institute of the University of Hamburg for their simulations as far as I can tell, and the calculations are in the paper. Honestly, you're calling their work bullshit based on nothing. You haven't shown what they've done wrong. You're expecting us to believe you because you're a student. It doesn't really work when the people who wrote the paper have PhDs.
As for "what does the Max Planck institute have to do with this", [url]http://www.bgc-jena.mpg.de/mpg/websiteBiogeochemie/english/Research/instForschungsgruppen/index.html[/url]. Look specifically at this research group:
[quote]Biospheric Theory and Modelling (Kleidon)
Atmosphere-biosphere interaction; climate-vegetation modelling; complex systems theory; Maximum Entropy Production, Earth system science[/quote]
[quote]While geographic variations in the physical climate shape the large-scale form, diversity, and functioning of the terrestrial vegetation, the actual vegetative cover strongly modulates the exchange fluxes of energy, momentum, water, carbon, and other biogeochemical cycles at the land surface. We develop and use numerical simulation models to understand these exchanges and interactions. We draw upon concepts from complex systems theory and non-equilibrium thermodynamics, particularly the principle of Maximum Entropy Production, to characterize these interactions in terms of optimality and the associated emergent properties in the climatological mean. This research is applied to better understand and interpret the past evolution of the Earth’s biosphere, how it adapts to global changes, and what it implies for the habitability of planet Earth.[/quote]
there's nothing ambiguous about this Kleidon character. no reason to believe him less than you.
[QUOTE=Turnips5;28997714]No energy is really renewable. Eventually there'll be nothing left in the Universe but a tepid sea of burnt-out stars and the eternal, horrible black void.[/QUOTE]
And that's when some new kinda evolutionary magic happens probably. Or a do-over!
Hell I don't know, but don't you go that far ahead predicting the future, I mean we are talking about the Universe's end here, not just our world's end.
Something tells me humans are gonna hang on to witness all that.. :psyduck: And maybe outsmart it, or whatever unimaginable.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29010419]"Common sense" doesn't apply at this scale.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
I utterly hate anybody who tries to shoot down a scientific theory with "lol common sense it doesn't work"
Quantum mechanics is the antithesis to common sense, yet it fucking works.
[editline]6th April 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=taipan;29015204][B]Storage:
[/B]-The storage is the current winds, warmth, flows, Light, electricity etc on earth.
[B]Conclusion:[/B]
If he has a calculation that can accurately describe an energy balance for all of these elements I really love to see it. The only thing he has now is a guess of the amount of energy Lost trough us, which is only 1:20.000 of the actual solar energy hitting us. Where does the rest go?[/QUOTE]
his calculation is that if we were to ever have all of our energy produced through wind power, it would deplete the energy stored in the winds.
our entire energy needs are orders of magnitude higher than the amount we currently pull from the atmosphere, that's the entire point.
fuck renewable energy earth can fall the fuck apart for all i care
as long as i get to drive some kind of exotic car before it goes im fucking fine with that.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;28997148]It takes a lot more than a bunch of giant fans to stop wind[/QUOTE]
Congratulations on knowing nothing about physics you useless pile of sentient turd.
[editline]6th April 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=c0nk3r;29017153]fuck renewable energy earth can fall the fuck apart for all i care
as long as i get to drive some kind of exotic car before it goes im fucking fine with that.[/QUOTE]
How this type of thinking survives genuinely fucking bewilders me, especially since evolutionary it is detrimental, how the fuck does it benefit our species in it's current state and situation benefit in anyway to be a selfish knuckle dragging shit bird?
I was under the impression that wind power came from wind spinning the turbines, and we received the power due to kinetic energy.
Not 'harnessing' the wind.
[QUOTE=Combine_dumb;29017324]I was under the impression that wind power came from wind spinning the turbines, and we received the power due to kinetic energy.
Not 'harnessing' the wind.[/QUOTE]
...harnessing the wind IS using it to spin the blades.
Every time there is a gust of wind it carries a certain amount of energy, stick a blade in the way and it has to expend some energy pushing the blades around/out of the way for it to move ahead meaning that the wind loses energy with every blade it hits, throw enough blades in the way and you can completely kill the wind. The exact same happens with wave power.
[QUOTE=bravehat;29017257]Congratulations on knowing nothing about physics you useless pile of sentient turd.
[editline]6th April 2011[/editline]
How this type of thinking survives genuinely fucking bewilders me, especially since evolutionary it is detrimental, how the fuck does it benefit our species in it's current state and situation benefit in anyway to be a selfish knuckle dragging shit bird?[/QUOTE]
the way i see it there were dinosaurs that all died
we are the next "dinosaurs" we gon die
earth fixes its self, then people come again.
works for me :v:
[editline]6th April 2011[/editline]
dont get mad at me, just call me an idiot if you disagree
Here's an idea.
Let's not be fucking retards, and let's surpass earth, we leave find our own new place, and try and stop it from dying from the blackened smog we release in our wake.
well thats kinda what i said, just with more people dying than yours
[editline]6th April 2011[/editline]
in my horrible opinion global warming is made up by tree hugging pansies who dont like SUV's
god im sure you all hate me right now :shobon:
You're a complete retard, the climate is changing, the planet is going through fundamental alterations, there is no denying that any more, the only debate is to the extent man is effecting the rate of change.
[editline]6th April 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Source;29013770][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_energy[/url][/QUOTE]
Draws heat from the planets core and causes faster cooling, with enough plants the same idea would apply as it does to wind and wave.
NO SUCH THING AS FREE ENERGY, ANYWHERE, EVER.
[QUOTE=Trumple;29007097]In most cases, solars panels will never harness as much energy as is used to create them.
Talk about a fucking waste...[/QUOTE]
Solar panels are worse than coal in the long run. Photovoltiac cells are expensive, and dirty. Till someone can come up with a method of harnessing solar radiation as a viable, cheap, and clean source of energy. Its not going to happen.
If we were to go as solar/wind as a primary energy source, we will exhaust the planets resources in under 70 years building all that. Its not worth the investment in the long haul.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29010419]No, you don't simply stop it. You stop it in a complicated process of thermodynamics and friction. "Common sense" doesn't apply at this scale.[/QUOTE]
Indeed so you gotta go pretty big time with the windmills and shit to have an effect on the global winds
Even current nuclear power would be amazing if we could actually use the power efficiently, steam turbines are hardly the most efficient method
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;29018002]Indeed so you gotta go pretty big time with the windmills and shit to have an effect on the global winds[/QUOTE]
That's the point of the article, it's concerning the dangers of increased reliance on wind farms. More specifically, it focuses on a worst-case scenario where nearly all of our power comes from wind turbines.
[editline]6th April 2011[/editline]
The only solution is to put solar panels in orbit or on the moon so that they do not cast large shadows upon the Earth. The energy would be sent to Earth via laser.
That or fusion.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;29018142]That's the point of the article, it's concerning the dangers of increased reliance on wind farms. More specifically, it focuses on a worst-case scenario where nearly all of our power comes from wind turbines.
[editline]6th April 2011[/editline]
The only solution is to put solar panels in orbit or on the moon so that they do not cast large shadows upon the Earth. The energy would be sent to Earth via laser.
That or fusion.[/QUOTE]
Our solutions aren't energies supplied from space. Our solutions are: Nuclear, Geothermal. Fusion will be fantastic, and is still in progress and awaiting more funding. Thorium (Nuclear) is on the same page. Geothermal is a bit more tricky, but its becoming common place. Its not a location problem, and could be installed in any building. There is some tech out there that doesn't require direct access to the mantel.
I say we fucking build our own sun and we bottle all the energy from the fusion reaction and get tanned while getting shit tons of energy!
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;29019145]I say we fucking build our own sun and we bottle all the energy from the fusion reaction and get tanned while getting shit tons of energy![/QUOTE]
Any idea where to get trillions upon trillions of pounds of hydrogen?
The sun outputs maybe about 600lbs of Hydrogen per sec. So.. what now?
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;29019145]I say we fucking build our own sun and we bottle all the energy from the fusion reaction and get tanned while getting shit tons of energy![/QUOTE]
make this man leader of earth 2012
[editline]6th April 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Richard Simmons;29019271]Any idea where to get trillions upon trillions of pounds of hydrogen?
The sun outputs maybe about 600lbs of Hydrogen per sec. So.. what now?[/QUOTE]
disassemble water :smug:
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