• Tyneside male rape charity gets National Lottery grant
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[QUOTE=fruxodaily;49102528]yeah you know i thought it was stupid too until i started reading into it and it started making sense coming from an all boys school, rape was basically normalised, I knew people who tried to have sex with people who were asleep and boasted about it, people thought they were awesome, and I couldn't say shit because it was never verified. It's not a stupid concept...[/QUOTE] your school's fucked I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people are against rape
[QUOTE=Svinnik;49102582]your school's fucked I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people are against rape[/QUOTE] everyone's against rape, but most - didn't take no for an answer - had sex with someone when they were drunk and they (perpetrator) were sober - tried to lure drunk girls for sex/hook ups when they clearly didn't want to I experienced most of this shit, I intervened all the time when I could, but there was times when I was told this afterwards (like after a party the next day) and I was either somewhere else or ditched early because I just couldn't be there Unfortunately, what I said is commonplace and it happens [editline]13th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Sprockethead;49102543]Rape is illegal in every industrialized western nation, If you tell anyone with public authority you have raped someone you have opened yourself to a criminal investigation. So tell me exactly how our culture encourages rape.[/QUOTE] Yes but you realise that police (some not all) still blame women for the way they dress, or the way they acted and "deserved" it Rape culture can be EASILY defeated by telling everyone that no means no in all situations. I was taught at a young age by my parents that no is final, and I follow that with my everyday. Rape is a criminal offence, yes your right, but it still happens, jokes are still told, people still boast about terrible things they did that are pretty much rape This is something that isn't "he looked at me funny" this is literally "he tried to fuck me while I was intoxicated and I was drunk"
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;49102543]Rape is illegal in every industrialized western nation, If you tell anyone with public authority you have raped someone you have opened yourself to a criminal investigation. So tell me exactly how our culture encourages rape.[/QUOTE] well as an example off the top of my head, the "get her blackout drunk before making a move" mentality is still pretty common [editline]12th November 2015[/editline] or the "i hope he gets raped in prison" stuff
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;49102418]Females still have a lot of social prejudice against them, that's why it's called Feminism, to break down social views. I've seen a tremendous amount of change from the movement, people seem to be respecting women's choices if they want to share their body, slut shaming seems to be decreasing steadily, rape culture is slowly breaking down but it's taking its time and many things. Feminism is equalism because the movement is about aligning men and women on the same playing field, on the side it's also helping break down toxic masculinity, acknowledging men can be victims in rape and domestic violence and trying to break down bias in the court (when it comes to custodianship of the child in divorce cases), albeit a little slow but there's progress I'm trying to bring more recognition to our issues as much as possible, and nobody has a problem that they should be highlighted, but the goal is creating the equal playing field[/QUOTE] Firstly, there is no 'rape culture' in the west. Rapists are not vindicated, and consensual sex is taught in sex-education classes as early as junior high school. Prosecuting someone for sexual assault or rape has always been a difficult issue to tackle by the courts, and I agree that gathering evidence for such cases is always invasive. But cases where it boils down to 'he said / she said' are far too common and contribute to a large number of cases without convictions. That being said, it would be appreciated if you could provide specific examples of rape being encouraged in a cultural context, as it helps give a clear understanding of the issue. There is no such thing as 'toxic' masculinity, masculinity is in and of itself a virtue, as is femininity, one can not exist without the other. If you claim there's an equal playing field, then explain to us the concept of toxic femininity; does such a thing exist, or is it only masculinity that can be considered 'toxic'? Slut shaming is agreeably a valid concern for many women, but dressing provocatively, or lack of garb regardless of sex will always be regarded as taboo, especially in a society that has laws written against indecent exposure. There are issues that may fall under these implications, but they are evaluated on a case by case basis, as they should be. I fail to see why a movement, that claims these issues are institutionalized to such an extent, feel compelled to undermine men's issues. If you stand for an equal playing field, you must acknowledge that women have an abundance of rape crisis centers, while men are struggling to get the help they need.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49102650]well as an example off the top of my head, the "get her blackout drunk before making a move" mentality is still pretty common [editline]12th November 2015[/editline] or the "i hope he gets raped in prison" stuff[/QUOTE] and when an underage boy gets raped by a woman and people go "damn i wish that happened to me," which also happens on facepunch
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;49102546]Saying feminism is about equality between men and women, or implying that it's the same as egalitarianism is misleading at best. Te feminist ideology operates on the presumption that women are of lower status/privilege/rights than men, and that equality will start when women reach those same levels. at the same time, men's issues that don't also affect women will largely be ignored due to it being seen as not as important "while women as a whole are not equal". Egalitarianism starts with the presumption that each gender has their advantages over the other, and we should work to bring up men where they lag behind, and bring up women where they lag behind men.[/QUOTE] I'll give you a few examples of male problems feminism tackles: In male prisons, the most common rape is female guards on the prisoners. These stats are obviously diluted to keep the public notion of the prisoners being the bad guys and the guards being the good guys alive, and the fact that rape still seen as being only male on female helps the prisons not be questioned on the stats. Feminist groups have been some of the first to bring these stats to light, even though it is not helping women, in fact, it's slightly hurting women. Feminism is fighting to overturn the ruling from the Tender Years Doctrine, a doctrine put into law by men back in the 19th century that set the precedent that women always get custody of children. Making child custody cases more equal does not help women, unless you feel that having kids is a burden rather than a gift. Feminism is also trying to end the societal norm of the overly masculine, muscled man as the standard for males. This image is the reason why steroid use is so high in males, and is a leading cause of depression in males. Ending this really doesn't have an affect on women. None of these examples really benefit women, yet they are all talked about in feminism. I have more examples if you want them too.
[QUOTE=Cone;49102687]and when an underage boy gets raped by a woman and people go "damn i wish that happened to me," which also happens on facepunch[/QUOTE] that's just dumbfucks who think that those boys got to live out an irl porno though
[QUOTE=Cone;49102687]and when an underage boy gets raped by a woman and people go "damn i wish that happened to me," which also happens on facepunch[/QUOTE] Literally this was the response I got from some male groups when I told them what happened to me. It was either this or people wanted to start a witch hunt against the rapist, which I didn't really feel right doing because before the incident the girl was my best friend. Rape culture is not "there are no laws against rape" but it is the trivialization of rape.
[QUOTE=Yadda;49102670]Firstly, there is no 'rape culture' in the west. Rapists are not vindicated, and consensual sex is taught in sex-education classes as early as junior high school. Prosecuting someone for sexual assault or rape has always been a difficult issue to tackle by the courts, and I agree that gathering evidence for such cases is always invasive. But cases where it boils down to 'he said / she said' are far too common and contribute to a large number of cases without convictions. That being said, it would be appreciated if you could provide specific examples of rape being encouraged in a cultural context, as it helps give a clear understanding of the issue. There is no such thing as 'toxic' masculinity, masculinity is in and of itself a virtue, as is femininity, one can not exist without the other. If you claim there's an equal playing field, then explain to us the concept of toxic femininity; does such a thing exist, or is it only masculinity that can be considered 'toxic'? Slut shaming is agreeably a valid concern for many women, but dressing provocatively, or lack of garb regardless of sex will always be regarded as taboo, especially in a society that has laws written against indecent exposure. There are issues that may fall under these implications, but they are evaluated on a case by case basis, as they should be. I fail to see why a movement, that claims these issues are institutionalized to such an extent, feel compelled to undermine men's issues. If you stand for an equal playing field, you must acknowledge that women have an abundance of rape crisis centers, while men are struggling to get the help they need.[/QUOTE] 1. No, in high school sex ed classes in Australia, nobody was taught about consent. The only time consent was taught to me in school was from my year 7 primary school teacher who felt disgusted people were "owning" the girls at the school. Maybe in your school areas in Canada it's taught, but trust me, not every school in the west has it in the curriculum and that's what feminist want, consent IN the curriculum 2. Yes there is - toxic masculinity is teaching men that crying is for pussies and sharing feelings is feminine and that men are tough and strong. There is toxic femininity as well, but masculinity is more of a hot topic. I was told at a super young age by my friends that boys don't cry and when I shared some of my feelings I was told I was gay, it's not fun and I went my whole life scared to open up about myself. Thankfully that's breaking down, but I didn't like the fact it was drilled into me at a young age. I'm not a female so I cannot talk about toxic femininity (because I never experienced it) 3. But that's what we should be fighting for, change in the taboo. It will be always regarded taboo if we keep it taboo. Women should be allowed to dress how they want, when they want. Want to wear a short skirt that shows a lot of skin? Cool do it, want to wear jeans? Cool do it. Indecent exposure =/= slut shaming, especially in regards to clothing. You don't get indecent exposure charges if you wear a tank top that pushes your boobs out, you get indecent exposure charges if you show genitalia 4. I agree with this, and I want men to have just as much rape crisis centres near the number of how many women crisis centres there are. I want domestic violence hotlines for men who have experienced it. But I can still call myself a feminist and fight for those rights. And surprisingly, there's a fair few feminist out there who share my belief that men need these services more than ever
[QUOTE=Svinnik;49102713]that's just dumbfucks who think that those boys got to live out an irl porno though[/QUOTE] well whatever the reason that's still a cultivated reaction based on casualizing rape. it's the same problem as the idea that all rape happens in a dark alley with a complete stranger, when really most of it is at the hands of someone you're already quite familiar with in a fairly regular environment, and a considerable proportion is statutory. basically Rape Case No. 1 has to be a horror movie to count, and Rape Case No. 2 is just a childhood fantasy - basically an extremely broad misconception that, intentionally or not, casualizes rape and snuffs out claims of it.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;49102787]1. No, in high school sex ed classes in Australia, nobody was taught about consent. The only time consent was taught to me in school was from my year 7 primary school teacher who felt disgusted people were "owning" the girls at the school. Maybe in your school areas in Canada it's taught, but trust me, not every school in the west has it in the curriculum and that's what feminist want, consent IN the curriculum 2. Yes there is - toxic masculinity is teaching men that crying is for pussies and sharing feelings is feminine and that men are tough and strong. There is toxic femininity as well, but masculinity is more of a hot topic. I was told at a super young age by my friends that boys don't cry and when I shared some of my feelings I was told I was gay, it's not fun and I went my whole life scared to open up about myself. Thankfully that's breaking down, but I didn't like the fact it was drilled into me at a young age. I'm not a female so I cannot talk about toxic femininity (because I never experienced it) 3. But that's what we should be fighting for, change in the taboo. It will be always regarded taboo if we keep it taboo. Women should be allowed to dress how they want, when they want. Want to wear a short skirt that shows a lot of skin? Cool do it, want to wear jeans? Cool do it. Indecent exposure =/= slut shaming, especially in regards to clothing. You don't get indecent exposure charges if you wear a tank top that pushes your boobs out, you get indecent exposure charges if you show genitalia 4. I agree with this, and I want men to have just as much rape crisis centres near the number of how many women crisis centres there are. I want domestic violence hotlines for men who have experienced it. But I can still call myself a feminist and fight for those rights. And surprisingly, there's a fair few feminist out there who share my belief that men need these services more than ever[/QUOTE] I distinctly remember arguing a similar issue to this on FP and having an FP feminist say "No feminism doesn't need to concern itself with mens issues, that's not what it's about". I find it hard to reconcile the idea that feminism is after that when yes, some aspects of feminism ARE after that, but not all, and it's not some homogenous group you can just slap a single label on to. As for 1) that sounds like a problem with your country as in 2007 I was taught about consent in my sex ed class. 2) Toxic masculinity is anything anyone says it is. It's a very neboulous term. I agree with you about those things needing to be minimized and removed. I don't know though, if feminists are actually super concerned about that because again, it's not a homogenous group. 3) I agree there's a weird double standard on that issue. 4) It's good that you do but I'm not sure how widespread that belief is.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49102923]I distinctly remember arguing a similar issue to this on FP and having an FP feminist say "No feminism doesn't need to concern itself with mens issues, that's not what it's about". I find it hard to reconcile the idea that feminism is after that when yes, some aspects of feminism ARE after that, but not all, and it's not some homogenous group you can just slap a single label on to. [/QUOTE] The best way I can talk about this is with an example. Among people who play videogames, there are those who are fat, greasy, creepy, anti-social "neckbeards" who generally do not fit into society at all. This does not mean all people who play videogames fall under this category, if that was true, this forum would not have any other sub forums other than general games discussion, and further, this type of person is not in the majority at all. Yet when the media is talking about video games, they always bring up this type of person, and then the collective internet usually then comes in to inform said media branch that not everyone is like that, and in fact, that type of person is usually just someone doing an exaggerated impression for comedic effect. With all of this said, lumping everyone who plays games into the same category is dumb, because a large majority are socially normal, healthy people who use videogames as an entertainment medium. Replace video games with feminism and the media with reddit, 4chan, or LMAO pics or whatever and it's the same shit. Grouping similar people together just makes it easier for all of us, it does not mean they all share the same views.
[QUOTE=splenda;49103015]The best way I can talk about this is with an example. Among people who play videogames, there are those who are fat, greasy, creepy, anti-social "neckbeards" who generally do not fit into society at all. This does not mean all people who play videogames fall under this category, if that was true, this forum would not have any other sub forums other than general games discussion, and further, this type of person is not in the majority at all. Yet when the media is talking about video games, they always bring up this type of person, and then the collective internet usually then comes in to inform said media branch that not everyone is like that, and in fact, that type of person is usually just someone doing an exaggerated impression for comedic effect. With all of this said, lumping everyone who plays games into the same category is dumb, because a large majority are socially normal, healthy people who use videogames as an entertainment medium. Replace video games with feminism and the media with reddit, 4chan, or LMAO pics or whatever and it's the same shit. Grouping similar people together just makes it easier for all of us, it does not mean they all share the same views.[/QUOTE] you're not really reading what I'm saying because i'm not saying "Hey here's a generalization" I'm saying "You're a diverse group of diverse people who believe in diverse things and there's no way to actually effectively generalize you because you aren't a homogenous group" My issue is that when I'm told "Feminism is standing up for you" i'm supposed to just believe that, (i'm a feminist, I truly am, but I rarely see other self proclaimed feminists interested in a great deal of issues i'm concerned about.) when there are different groups of feminists, some who are definitely not standing up for me. The term feminism both means "Equality" and "Matriachial society" depending on who you ask.
To make my point even more clear, the classic image of someone who plays video games does not treat women well, or even hate women. Even though certain groups like to try to portray all of these people as women hating men, if you actually talk to someone who plays video games you will see the amount of people who actually hate women is extremely low, and those people are usually shunned by the rest of the community, being thrown into fringe groups.
I don't see why these things have to be done in a strictly "feminist" context as if it's some kind of team sport, especially when even self-identified feminists are aware that feminism is polarised on issues concerning men so saying "feminism will fix it" just means nothing And I just noticed Abyss pretty much said what I said here but still
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49103035]you're not really reading what I'm saying because i'm not saying "Hey here's a generalization" I'm saying "You're a diverse group of diverse people who believe in diverse things and there's no way to actually effectively generalize you because you aren't a homogenous group" My issue is that when I'm told "Feminism is standing up for you" i'm supposed to just believe that, (i'm a feminist, I truly am, but I rarely see other self proclaimed feminists interested in a great deal of issues i'm concerned about.) when there are different groups of feminists, some who are definitely not standing up for me. The term feminism both means "Equality" and "Matriachial society" depending on who you ask.[/QUOTE] My post is literally trying to say that just because people are being grouped together does not mean everyone is the same, and in fact all groups have fringe groups who are vocal, but the rest of the community does not agree with them. I feel that is addressing your point when you say that some feminists tell you they don't give a shit about men's problems, while others tell you male problems are also an issue.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49102923]I distinctly remember arguing a similar issue to this on FP and having an FP feminist say "No feminism doesn't need to concern itself with mens issues, that's not what it's about". I find it hard to reconcile the idea that feminism is after that when yes, some aspects of feminism ARE after that, but not all, and it's not some homogenous group you can just slap a single label on to. As for 1) that sounds like a problem with your country as in 2007 I was taught about consent in my sex ed class. 2) Toxic masculinity is anything anyone says it is. It's a very neboulous term. I agree with you about those things needing to be minimized and removed. I don't know though, if feminists are actually super concerned about that because again, it's not a homogenous group. 3) I agree there's a weird double standard on that issue. 4) It's good that you do but I'm not sure how widespread that belief is.[/QUOTE] Generally if anyone it's liberal feminists and the newer bunch that have retreated into narrow sighted feminism, which at that point isn't so much a form of thought anymore but just a form of reaction to various things. Kind of like MRAs. Socialist feminists tie the liberation of women to that of men, as they are oppressed by the same system, in the same way socialists tie the revolution of the working class to the abolition of class. It's not a matter of turning a system on its head and creating a new oppressor, but using the struggle of women, workers, blacks, etc. to abolish that system entirely and therefore make their gains = our gains. They could do this since historically patriarchy, systemic racism, imperialist war, and economic liberalism were all working in tandem. To quote the feminist Alexandra Kollontai: [QUOTE]While for the feminists the achievement of equal rights with men in the framework of the contemporary capitalist world represents a sufficiently concrete end in itself, equal rights at the present time are, for the proletarian women, only a means of advancing the struggle against the economic slavery of the working class. The feminists see men as the main enemy, for men have unjustly seized all rights and privileges for themselves, leaving women only chains and duties. For them a victory is won when a prerogative previously enjoyed exclusively by the male sex is conceded to the “fair sex”. Proletarian women have a different attitude. They do not see men as the enemy and the oppressor; on the contrary, they think of men as their comrades, who share with them the drudgery of the daily round and fight with them for a better future. The woman and her male comrade are enslaved by the same social conditions; the same hated chains of capitalism oppress their will and deprive them of the joys and charms of life. It is true that several specific aspects of the contemporary system lie with double weight upon women, as it is also true that the conditions of hired labour sometimes turn working women into competitors and rivals to men. But in these unfavourable situations, the working class knows who is guilty[/quote] [url]https://www.marxists.org/archive/kollonta/1909/social-basis.htm[/url]
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;49102597] Yes but you realise that police (some not all) still blame women for the way they dress, or the way they acted and "deserved" it Rape culture can be EASILY defeated by telling everyone that no means no in all situations. I was taught at a young age by my parents that no is final, and I follow that with my everyday. [B]Rape is a criminal offence[/B], yes your right, but it still happens, jokes are still told, people still boast about terrible things they did that are pretty much rape This is something that isn't "he looked at me funny" this is literally "he tried to fuck me while I was intoxicated and I was drunk"[/QUOTE] Not if it's female on male in the UK as it's defined as non-consensual penetration.
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;49102291]Do you chant that shit every night before you go to bed? Im only reacting to the feminism that i can see. If you want me to engage with the main body of feminism, make them come out here where we can see them. They really aren't taking any satisfactory measures to distance themselves from these incredibly vocal and hateful people we are talking about. That's what i perceive anyway, dismiss it at your leisure.[/QUOTE] lmao if you want to see real feminism stop jerking off to /r/TumblrInAction and visit a real feminist board or take a Gender Studies class, if your only exposure to feminism is what reddit and facepunch tells you you should try and broaden your viewpoint. They aren't hiding anywhere you're just over exposed to the weirdos. You make the "Vocal minorities" as vocal as you want purely through your own willful exposure to them. [editline]13th November 2015[/editline] [editline]13th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Sprockethead;49102543]Rape is illegal in every industrialized western nation, If you tell anyone with public authority you have raped someone you have opened yourself to a criminal investigation. So tell me exactly how our culture encourages rape.[/QUOTE] [video=youtube;EmlVQKbIhrg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmlVQKbIhrg[/video]
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49107226] You make the "Vocal minorities" as vocal as you want purely through your own willful exposure to them. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Aldawolf;49107226] [editline]13th November 2015[/editline] [video=youtube;EmlVQKbIhrg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmlVQKbIhrg[/video][/QUOTE] You know that the general public and institutions metaphorically crucify people for this right? Make a rape joke and your career is at risk, etc.
Also, isn't this statement a tad hypocritical? *Merge?
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49102650]well as an example off the top of my head, the "get her blackout drunk before making a move" mentality is still pretty common [editline]12th November 2015[/editline] or the "i hope he gets raped in prison" stuff[/QUOTE] If this is regards to Australia, why? Isn't prostitution legal there?
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