• Student Accused of Sexual Assault Wins Lawsuit Against UC San Diego for Mistrial
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[QUOTE=sgman91;48233169]That's an incredibly massive claim that I'm certain you don't have support for. Also, half the stuff called vicitim blaming is just people trying to give advice to people for the future. For example, you can both say, "Hey, women probably shouldn't go down dark alleys alone in bad areas of a big city," while also not blaming women who do and get mugged/raped.[/QUOTE] Considering at minimum a [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11409210/Drunk-or-flirty-rape-victims-often-to-blame-says-survey.html]significant plurality[/url] believe in cases of drunkeness, flirting, and other 'inviting' things the victim share at least some of the blame, it is highly likely rape victims encounter the same old excuses at least once. Further, we have seen it publicly in just about every high profile rape case or accusation. It is not an exaggeration to say just about every rape victim has likely personally been exposed to our backwards 'common sense' cultural attitudes towards sex, gender, and rape. We are all taught it as children and as social creatures we try to make people conform. Also, it is not 'advice' considering this 'common sense' stuff that's being advised is just ingrained (and often sexist) social attitudes the victim no doubt was taught about from birth, and now being reminded of for no apparent reason but to blame them for not curbing their own behaviors they were warned about (as if they should sacrifice their freedom so as not to disturb the status quo and cultural attitudes towards sex and rape). It is at best trolling, at worst victim blaming.
i think that saying "she shouldn't have dressed like a whore" or other shit like that [i]is[/i] victim blaming, i also think only old people actually use that arguement anymore these days [editline]17th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Conscript;48233384]Considering at minimum a [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11409210/Drunk-or-flirty-rape-victims-often-to-blame-says-survey.html]significant plurality[/url] believe in cases of drunkeness, flirting, and other 'inviting' things the victim share at least some of the blame, it is highly likely rape victims encounter the same old excuses at least once. Also, it is not 'advice' considering this 'common sense' stuff that's being advised is just ingrained (and often sexist) social attitudes the victim no doubt was taught about from birth, and now being reminded of for no apparent reason but to blame them for not curbing their own behaviors they were warned about (as if they should sacrifice their freedom so as not to disturb the status quo and cultural attitudes towards sex and rape). It is at best trolling, at worst victim blaming.[/QUOTE] dude i tell my guy friends to not get super drunk or messed up around strangers without friends because you never know what a stranger might do to you, be it steal your shit, rape you, or take you back to a hotel to a bathtub full of ice and remove your kidneys. it sucks we live in a world where you have to take precautions, but the world isn't going to change just because generally good advice is disregarded, all it will lead to is more victims. maybe someday that advice won't be needed but until then i'm not going to be getting fucked up by myself in any public situation and will tell my friends the same
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;48233385] dude i tell my guy friends to not get super drunk or messed up around strangers without friends because you never know what a stranger might do to you, be it steal your shit, rape you, or take you back to a hotel to a bathtub full of ice and remove your kidneys. it sucks we live in a world where you have to take precautions, but the world isn't going to change just because generally good advice is disregarded, all it will lead to is more victims. maybe someday that advice won't be needed but until then i'm not going to be getting fucked up by myself in any public situation and will tell my friends the same[/QUOTE] As long as we understand the problem is with society (and the often sexist cultural attitudes it brings to the table), not the individual for their behaviors. It has nothing to do with a perfect world, it has everything to do with backlash to non-conformity and subsequent 'stupid' decisions manifesting as victim blaming. We must remember the individual never serves society and has no obligation to curb their freedoms to sate 'common sense' (and inherently sexist and power based) social attitudes just to not be abused by that society. So, any hope of changing that does not start with sgman's 'advice'. It's a non-starter, its purpose is to exactly change nothing, except maybe on the individual's part (where this 'advice' comes in and why it inherently carries a victim blaming connotation). It can be out of sexism or out of some dismal view of humanity, or just both.
[QUOTE=Conscript;48233527] So, any hope of changing that does not start with sgman's 'advice'. It's a non-starter, its purpose is to exactly change nothing, and have the victim share some blame as a nice bonus.[/QUOTE] It's purpose is to help people not get hurt. Sorry, but I would rather someone not do action X if it would save them from pain, then walk around high and might about how they shouldn't have worry about it... even though in the real world they do. I mean, why do we tell kids not to get in cars with strangers? Isn't that just blaming the victim?
[QUOTE=sgman91;48233557]It's purpose is to help people not get hurt. Sorry, but I would rather someone not do action X if it would save them from pain, then walk around high and might about how they shouldn't have worry about it... even though in the real world they do. I mean, why do we tell kids not to get in cars with strangers? Isn't that just blaming the victim?[/QUOTE] Children don't know any better, adults do which is where the victim blaming for not making 'common sense' decisions comes in, as if they should sacrifice their adult freedoms because [i]you[/i] believe humanity is doomed to be shitty, particularly towards women (which no doubt has a sexist cultural influence). You can dress this up as genuinely wanting to help a rape victim (but most likely just trolling since they know what you're telling them, they grew up in the same society), but in doing so you prove the feminist's point about society, sex, and 'rape culture'. You admit what they criticize is real, you're just trying to 'help' them by telling them to adjust to it, when no individual should accept such a thing.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48233557]It's purpose is to help people not get hurt. Sorry, but I would rather someone not do action X if it would save them from pain, then walk around high and might about how they shouldn't have worry about it... even though in the real world they do. I mean, why do we tell kids not to get in cars with strangers? Isn't that just blaming the victim?[/QUOTE] You are aware that most rapes are committed by someone the victim knows or is acquainted with rather than the age old 'trench coated figure in a dark alley'.
This is the way society is headed. Even with beyond reasonable amounts of more than solid proof it's not an easy matter of "we're done here"
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;48233632]You are aware that most rapes are committed by someone the victim knows or is acquainted with rather than the age old 'trench coated figure in a dark alley'.[/QUOTE] Yes, I'm aware of that, but it's got nothing to do with what I said. Claims of victim blaming are rarely in those cases.
[QUOTE=Conscript;48233599]Children don't know any better, adults do which is where the victim blaming for not making 'common sense' decisions comes in, as if they should sacrifice their adult freedoms because [i]you[/i] believe humanity is doomed to be shitty, particularly towards women (which no doubt has a sexist cultural influence). You can dress this up as genuinely wanting to help a rape victim (but most likely just trolling since they know what you're telling them, they grew up in the same society), but in doing so you prove the feminist's point about society, sex, and 'rape culture'. You admit what they criticize is real, you're just trying to 'help' them by telling them to adjust to it, when no individual should accept such a thing.[/QUOTE] I see you've done all the work of ignoring the principle of what sgman91 was saying so you can misrepresent what he's saying. The principle being that in identifying how it is that bad people try to do bad things to you there are precautions that a person can take to reduce their risk of being victimized. And whether or not you as an informed adult take these precautions doesn't make it any more your fault. We do this for practically every other single crime in existence People are advised to get a burglar alarm in their house, and it's not because we think it's the victims fault for being robbed. We teach teenagers who are learning how to drive to drive defensively and not assume that other people are going to always follow the rules of the road. Again it doesn't mean we think it's their fault if some drunk idiot crashes into them and kills them. Shit, police departments even release statistics about which models of cars are more likely to be stolen so that car owners know if they're at greater risk and can take extra precautions if they so desire. again, not victim blaming. Oh, and just because someone might advise a lady not to leave her drink unattended at a sketchy looking nightclub, doesn't mean that they think there isn't anything else that can be done about it or that we should just accept society the way it is now. You're setting it up as this false dichotomy when it really isn't. We don't have to choose between arming women with information so that they can make it harder for rapists to rape them, and "teaching men not to rape". We can do both.
[QUOTE=Melkor;48234117]We don't have to choose between arming women with information so that they can make it harder for rapists to rape them, and "teaching men not to rape". We can do both.[/QUOTE] But here's the issue: Women are already bombarded with warnings, safety precautions and preventative measures. They're already aware of that very grim possibility. American society is currently on a rough uphill battle with teaching men not to rape and getting them to fully understand consent. [editline]17th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Jackald;48234174]Was this that Mattress girl thing?[/QUOTE] maybe you should read the article and find out instead of immediately posting
[QUOTE=djshox;48234234]But here's the issue: Women are already bombarded with warnings, safety precautions and preventative measures. They're already aware of that very grim possibility. American society is currently on a rough uphill battle with teaching men not to rape and getting them to fully understand consent.[/QUOTE] Really? I'm pretty sure most men today understand consent. Considering that they too are bombarded with messages telling them what consent is and isn't. Could it be that rapists are just shitty people who don't care if what they do is immoral? That wasn't what the argument was anyways. Conscript was literally saying that giving women safety precautions in the first place was perpetuating rape culture.
She should go to jail for this. False shit like this has gotten many people, and it shouldn't be tolerated.
[QUOTE=Melkor;48234261]Really? I'm pretty sure most men today understand consent.[/QUOTE] I've been looking for a study or poll that asked college students what their definition of consent was, and I can't find it, argh. [URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/local/sexual-assault-poll/"]I did find this other poll, which is relevant.[/URL] A lot of data, but I was more focused on a few parts: What students can do to prevent sexual assault on campus, which lists "men respecting women more" as an overwhelmingly huge response. Then there's also the section of consent, where it was a split-shot of participants saying that male students were not doing enough to prevent sexual assaults. [quote]Conscript was literally saying that giving women safety precautions in the first place was perpetuating rape culture.[/quote] I would say that if ONLY women are being held accountable while others believe that "boys will simply be boys, they couldn't control themselves since they're driven by hormones!", then that would be perpetuating rape culture.
[QUOTE=djshox;48234462]I've been looking for a study or poll that asked college students what their definition of consent was, and I can't find it, argh. [URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/local/sexual-assault-poll/"]I did find this other poll, which is relevant.[/URL] A lot of data, but I was more focused on a few parts: What students can do to prevent sexual assault on campus, which lists "men respecting women more" as an overwhelmingly huge response. Then there's also the section of consent, where it was a split-shot of participants saying that male students were not doing enough to prevent sexual assaults. [/QUOTE] I mean, I've seen feminists post statistics showing insanely large portions of the population don't know what constitutes rape. But when you actually look at the methods they used to conduct these surveys, and how ambiguously they phrase the questions. The results are hardly convincing. You know the whole 1 in 5 women will get raped on college campuses statistic that everyone likes to throw around? That was from 2007 voluntary response survey done at two different college campuses . Less than 25% of the women surveyed whom the study said were rape victims thought they had been raped. Obviously that means that rape culture is an even bigger problem than we initially thought right? Considering less than 25% of the victims who were raped knew that they were victims. That is until you actually look at the metric by which they considered people rape victims. The metric being that anyone who had sex while under the influence of drugs or alcohol regardless of how much they had automatically made them rape victims. That means that a girl could have half a beer before having sex with her boyfriend and be considered a rape victim. Frankly, given this metric I'm surprised it's only 1 in 5. Other studies of this nature that I've seen have had similar problems. Which is why I'm so skeptical a lot of the time when I see polls and surveys like this. Or the one that conscript had posted earlier. Now rape and misogyny are still problems that exist in society, don't get me wrong. They just aren't at the huge epidemic proportions that people like conscript pretend it is. [QUOTE=djshox;48234462]I would say that if ONLY women are being held accountable while others believe that "boys will simply be boys, they couldn't control themselves since they're driven by hormones!", then that would be perpetuating rape culture.[/QUOTE] I would agree. Unfortunately for conscript no one in this thread is saying that.
I hope these issues with rape accusations in general where the alleged victim is believed instantly and without doubt over any defense the accused have go away. Innocent until proven guilty is a thing.
[quote]nscript was literally saying that giving women safety precautions in the first place was perpetuating rape culture.[/quote] lol no. maybe you should read my posts again if that's what you took away from that.
[QUOTE=Conscript;48234772]lol no. maybe you should read my posts again if that's what you took away from that.[/QUOTE] Here's your response to sgman when he said that giving a woman advice on how to make it harder for rapist to rape you wasn't placing responsibility on the victim. [QUOTE=Conscript;48233384]Also, it is not 'advice' considering this 'common sense' stuff that's being advised is just ingrained (and often sexist) social attitudes the victim no doubt was taught about from birth, and now being reminded of for no apparent reason but to blame them for not curbing their own behaviors they were warned about (as if they should sacrifice their freedom so as not to disturb the status quo and cultural attitudes towards sex and rape). It is at best trolling, at worst victim blaming.[/QUOTE] Is it possible you don't even know what's logically entailed by the bullshit you're spewing? Or what it was that sgman was saying?
[QUOTE=Jackald;48234439]It doesn't say, hence why i'm asking.[/QUOTE] in the article [quote]The students have been identified only as “John Doe” and “Jane Roe” because of the sensitive nature of sexual assault cases.)[/quote] if you searched google for "mattress girl", that girl's name is literally the first thing to be displayed in the list of results, so two completely different cases here
[QUOTE=Melkor;48234877]Here's your response to sgman when he said that giving a woman advice on how to make it harder for rapist to rape you wasn't placing responsibility on the victim.[/QUOTE] Except sgman's post simply says that warning is enough and that it's more important than you know, actually fixing the problem. Also, in regards to your previous post, I'd say that most people don't actually understand the entire concept of consent. Like people forcing themselves upon their partners because of the whole "well, we're two are stuck together with just each other sexually, so you have to please me from now on". [editline]18th July 2015[/editline] Although in this case, this woman did disservice to everyone no matter their gender.
[QUOTE=gufu;48235031]Except sgman's post simply says that warning is enough and that it's more important than you know, actually fixing the problem.[/QUOTE] Here's what I said: [QUOTE]That's an incredibly massive claim that I'm certain you don't have support for. Also, half the stuff called vicitim blaming is just people trying to give advice to people for the future. For example, you can both say, "Hey, women probably shouldn't go down dark alleys alone in bad areas of a big city," while also not blaming women who do and get mugged/raped.[/QUOTE] Please highlight the part where I said that.
It's not the specific wording so I can highlight in your sentence, but it's the overall "Oh, we told you not to do X, because you'll get raped", which while being an advice, is practically useless. It doesn't achieve actually solving the problem. It's a bandaid.
[QUOTE=gufu;48235085]It's not the specific wording so I can highlight in your sentence, but it's the overall "Oh, we told you not to do X, because you'll get raped", which while being an advice, is practically useless. It doesn't achieve actually solving the problem. It's a bandaid.[/QUOTE] What you mean is that I didn't say it at all, and that you're imputing way more onto my comment than is actually there. I didn't say that, I didn't insinuate it, and no one would get that impression from my post unless they read it with massive bias clouding their mind. The context (what I quoted and was actually responding to) makes it clear that I was directly talking about victim blaming, not some comprehensive fix to rape. [editline]17th July 2015[/editline] This is becoming my new favorite phrase on FP: respond to what I wrote and not what you think I meant to write.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48235098] This is becoming my new favorite phrase on FP: respond to what I wrote and not what you think I meant to write.[/QUOTE] Then start writing shit that actually says what you say. You seem to have a problem with that, since you tend to call out multiple people for this.
[QUOTE=gufu;48235123]Then start writing shit that actually says what you say. You seem to have a problem with that, since you tend to call out multiple people for this.[/QUOTE] I clearly pointed it out for you. It's on you for not understanding. It's also not my fault that you can't read something without assuming intent and adding way more than is actually there. Don't start blaming the victim here ;) The fact that you couldn't point to where I said what you're claiming I said makes it obvious.
Okay, let's play your game: [QUOTE=sgman91;48235129]That's an incredibly massive claim that I'm certain you don't have support for. [B]Also, half the stuff called vicitim blaming is just people trying to give advice to people for the future.[/B] For example, you can both say, "Hey, women probably shouldn't go down dark alleys alone in bad areas of a big city," while also not blaming women who do and get mugged/raped.[/QUOTE] They have already been raped, so good job trying to give advise there. Good timing.
[QUOTE=gufu;48235143]Okay, let's play your game: They have already been raped, so good job trying to give advise there. Good timing.[/QUOTE] Honestly, did you even read it? I clearly said for "people [in] the future." Also, you said I said: [QUOTE]Except sgman's post simply says that warning is enough and that it's more important than you know, actually fixing the problem.[/QUOTE] That's the part I'm interested it.
[QUOTE=Melkor;48234877]Here's your response to sgman when he said that giving a woman advice on how to make it harder for rapist to rape you wasn't placing responsibility on the victim. Is it possible you don't even know what's logically entailed by the bullshit you're spewing? Or what it was that sgman was saying?[/QUOTE] His post was saying half of victim blaming claims were over giving simple advice, which is ironic considering he was accusing someone of exaggerating without evidence. I said the advice was already known since it's one regarding (again typically sexist) social norms known to all, but especially women. Thus it's at best pointless advice and conceding to feminist critique about culture, or at worst a thinly veiled attempt at making them conform so as not to be required to challenge something wider than the individual victim's behavior. Pick one. In either case it's not dealing with rape culture which you then go on to whitewash, it's trying to 'help' victims by reminding them what they've been taught since birth as part of our sexist gender norms, to get them to adapt to such culture. Somehow I doubt such useless help is wanted and will be interpreted the way you think you are pitching it. Further, if the victim ignores the 'advice' and insists they have a right to drink or flirt without being raped, it can obviously veer into victim blaming. Maybe not for you, I don't know you, but for plenty of other people, sure. Then again, in FP vein you might as well consider it darwinian or something. Its like you only read enough of my post to know it ruffled some feathers. lol
[QUOTE=sgman91;48235157] That's the part I'm interested it.[/QUOTE] You did not clarify WHICH fucking people. Your wording can imply anyone, including the victim and even the rapist.
[QUOTE=gufu;48235164]You did not clarify WHICH fucking people. Your wording can imply anyone, including the victim and even the rapist.[/QUOTE] I think it's funny how you're trying to make me the bad guy in this. You called me out for saying something I never said, and now you can't justify it. Instead of just admitting what you've done you're trying to somehow pick at other parts of my comment, but totally skipping over the obvious parts of it that clearly answer your challenge.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48235178]I think it's funny how you're trying to make me the bad guy in this. You called me out for saying something I never said, and now you can't justify it. Instead of just admitting what you've done you're trying to somehow pick at other parts of my comment, but totally skipping over the obvious parts of it that clearly answer your challenge.[/QUOTE] This isn't the first time this happened and I am not the only with whom you had this problem. This is also not the first time you felt back to this strategy of "Oh, I didn't mean that/I didn't say that". I pointed out what you said and you are apparently offended that your words have been "Misunderstood". We're not lawyers, fighting over the exact wording does not change the general message of your, well, message. And if you don't want people to misunderstand you, explain yourself properly and clearly.
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