She Said a Police Officer Sexually Abused Her. His Body Camera Tells a Different Story [VIDEO]
98 replies, posted
[QUOTE=joes33431;47766471]how exactly do you expect this to work
rape allegations are already incredibly difficult to prove on their own, do you think it's going to be any less difficult to prove that they're deliberately false? cases like these, where there is clear evidence to support a narrative, are the exceptions to the rule; without a key witness (which may be unreliable to begin with), many rape cases are down to circumstantial evidence and hearsay. not even circumstantial evidence is guaranteed to exist, due to the fact that rape victims often compulsively wash themselves following the trauma. hell, even if circumstantial evidence [I]does[/I] exist, the defense can always employ the argument that the sex was consensual.
my point is that while it's nice and dandy to want to prosecute false claims, there is often only the [I]absence[/I] of evidence that can "prove" such a thing.[/QUOTE]
If you prosecute false rape claims, you make it harder for real rape claims to come forward, at least that's what I hear argued often. I think that's true for the most part, which makes this issue really hard because you shouldn't let people make false police claims of any(serious) sort because that's irresponsible but I really feel like it'd be a near impossible task to actually sort out false rape claims from claims of rape that are difficult to verify with any accuracy.
I don't really see a good solution here. Ignoring the damage done to someones life by a false accusation is wrong but is it the lesser of the two evils? I'd say we should just change how over reactive and unthinking our society is, but that's a task I really don't think will change any time soon.
[QUOTE=joes33431;47766471]
my point is that while it's nice and dandy to want to prosecute false claims, there is often only the [I]absence[/I] of evidence that can "prove" such a thing.[/QUOTE]
Absence of evidence does not prove a rape claim was false. On the other hand if there is evidence it was false, the person should be punished hard.
[editline]20th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47766508]If you prosecute false rape claims, you make it harder for real rape claims to come forward, at least that's what I hear argued often. I think that's true for the most part, which makes this issue really hard because you shouldn't let people make false police claims of any(serious) sort because that's irresponsible but I really feel like it'd be a near impossible task to actually sort out false rape claims from claims of rape that are difficult to verify with any accuracy.
I don't really see a good solution here. Ignoring the damage done to someones life by a false accusation is wrong but is it the lesser of the two evils? I'd say we should just change how over reactive and unthinking our society is, but that's a task I really don't think will change any time soon.[/QUOTE]As far as I know rape is the only crime that can get you imprisoned for lack of evidence even if you did not commit it.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;47766513]Absence of evidence does not prove a rape claim was false. On the other hand if there is evidence it was false, the person should be punished hard.
[editline]20th May 2015[/editline]
As far as I know rape is the only crime that can get you imprisoned for lack of evidence even if you did not commit it.[/QUOTE]
i'd need to see citations for that honestly.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47766534]i'd need to see citations for that honestly.[/QUOTE]
I don't have anything solid on hand, there are a few results on google but that's not solid enough so you can disregard what I said.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;47766513]Absence of evidence does not prove a rape claim was false. On the other hand if there is evidence it was false, the person should be punished hard.[/QUOTE]
i never said that absence of evidence did, hence the quotes.
but the fact that few cases have the evidence you'd need to prove false allegations means that you aren't going to catch very many people doing it, if any.
you could argue that it's a deterrent, but if deterrence as a strategy of crime prevention actually worked, then the war on drugs would have been won by now.
if you want to stop false allegations, then you need a different solution.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47766508]If you prosecute false rape claims, you make it harder for real rape claims to come forward, at least that's what I hear argued often. I think that's true for the most part, which makes this issue really hard because you shouldn't let people make false police claims of any(serious) sort because that's irresponsible but I really feel like it'd be a near impossible task to actually sort out false rape claims from claims of rape that are difficult to verify with any accuracy.
I don't really see a good solution here. Ignoring the damage done to someones life by a false accusation is wrong but is it the lesser of the two evils? I'd say we should just change how over reactive and unthinking our society is, but that's a task I really don't think will change any time soon.[/QUOTE]
If you prosecute false rape claims, this means you have evidence that these claims were false. Why would that make it harder for real rape claims to come forward? If those claims are indeed real then the victim has no reason to fear them being proven wrong.
I never understood this argument.
[editline]21st May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=joes33431;47767138]i never said that absence of evidence did, hence the quotes.
but the fact that few cases have the evidence you'd need to prove false allegations means that you aren't going to catch very many people doing it, if any.
you could argue that it's a deterrent, but if deterrence as a strategy of crime prevention actually worked, then the war on drugs would have been won by now.
if you want to stop false allegations, then you need a different solution.[/QUOTE]
What.
If you prosecute false rape claims, even if it were as hard as you claim to prove them wrong, that at least discourage false accusations a bit.
You're trying to say that because it only doesn't solve the issue completely, we shouldn't even consider it? It's at least better than nothing.
[QUOTE=Dr. Punchgroin;47762418]That's good that this was caught but it seems like this article is trying to promote the idea that cops don't regularly sexually assault people
which they do[/QUOTE]
You live in America
rape happens in America sometimes
you're a rapist.
[QUOTE=_Axel;47767311]If you prosecute false rape claims, this means you have evidence that these claims were false. Why would that make it harder for real rape claims to come forward? If those claims are indeed real then the victim has no reason to fear them being proven wrong.
I never understood this argument.[/QUOTE]
I think the root of the argument is people look at it as, if you make a claim, someone has to get charged; with the logic then being, if there isn't enough evidence to charge the alleged rapist, then they will charge the alleged victim instead. The third possibility, where there simply isn't enough evidence to make a determination either way, so no one gets charged, doesn't seem to be considered.
[QUOTE=_Axel;47767311]What.
If you prosecute false rape claims, even if it were as hard as you claim to prove them wrong, that at least discourage false accusations a bit.[/QUOTE]
with reference to what humanabyss said, the mere fact that you can be prosecuted for supposedly making a false allegation can make victims afraid to come forward. this has to do with the fact that our judicial system isn't well-equipped to handle the issue of rape, due to the fact that the chain of evidence is poor, and that rape victims [URL="http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/06/why_cops_don_t_believe_rape_victims_and_how_brain_science_can_solve_the.html"]respond differently[/URL] to the trauma compared to victims of most other crimes, meaning that officers (and possibly judges, lawyers, and jurors) can be inadvertently predisposed towards suspecting a false allegation.
being accused of making a false allegation then means more hassle, more time being forced to recall the events of the trauma, and more time spent stuck on the trauma rather than moving past it. merely showing up for court for the trial of the accused rapist is hard enough - more court time is a straw that can break a camel's back.
not to mention that the life of a rape victim following the trauma is one of doubt, uncertainty, and fear. again, merely showing up to court can be on a thin line, and the mere chance that they could be accused of lying could be enough to cross that line.
[QUOTE=_Axel;47767311]You're trying to say that because it only doesn't solve the issue completely, we shouldn't even consider it? It's at least better than nothing.[/QUOTE]
i said that we need a better solution.
[QUOTE=joes33431;47767138]if you want to stop false allegations, then you need a different solution.[/QUOTE]
that is what i said.
it's not like screaming "that's bad!" at someone and slapping them with fines and jailtime is the only way to prevent harmful behaviors like false allegations. if that were the case, then our homicide rate would be lower, not higher, than most of the rest of the developed world. preventing [I]all[/I] kinds of crime, regardless of the type, requires remediation at the roots. ergo, a cultural and educational effort to discourage false allegations, to demonstrate their seriousness, and to alter the broader attitudes that inform that kind of behavior are all things that we can do that don't involve scaring the living piss out of rape victims.
[QUOTE]UPDATE: Albuquerque Police Department spokesman Tanner Tixier told TheBlaze on Monday evening that police were not pursuing additional charges against Griego because, despite the apparent falsehood of her sexual assault claim, police did not want to set a precedent that could discourage other potential victims of sexual assault from coming forward.[/QUOTE]
[editline]20th May 2015[/editline]
way to waste a great opportunity
[QUOTE=joes33431;47767577]with reference to what humanabyss said, the mere fact that you can be prosecuted for supposedly making a false allegation can make victims afraid to come forward. this has to do with the fact that our judicial system isn't well-equipped to handle the issue of rape, due to the fact that the chain of evidence is poor, and that rape victims [URL="http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/06/why_cops_don_t_believe_rape_victims_and_how_brain_science_can_solve_the.html"]respond differently[/URL] to the trauma compared to victims of most other crimes, meaning that officers (and possibly judges, lawyers, and jurors) can be inadvertently predisposed towards suspecting a false allegation.
being accused of making a false allegation then means more hassle, more time being forced to recall the events of the trauma, and more time spent stuck on the trauma rather than moving past it. merely showing up for court for the trial of the accused rapist is hard enough - more court time is a straw that can break a camel's back.
not to mention that the life of a rape victim following the trauma is one of doubt, uncertainty, and fear. again, merely showing up to court can be on a thin line, and the mere chance that they could be accused of lying could be enough to cross that line.[/QUOTE]
I dont really see how that's different from other traumatic experiences. What makes rape special in that regard?
If finding evidence towards false allegations is as hard as you suggest, then being accused of lying is just as unlikely. This would only be brought up if the context makes it seem plausible, or if further investigation is likely to yield results. It would be just as non-problematic as it would be inefficient.
[QUOTE]it's not like screaming "that's bad!" at someone and slapping them with fines and jailtime is the only way to prevent harmful behaviors like false allegations. if that were the case, then our homicide rate would be lower, not higher, than most of the rest of the developed world. preventing [I]all[/I] kinds of crime, regardless of the type, requires remediation at the roots. ergo, a cultural and educational effort to discourage false allegations, to demonstrate their seriousness, and to alter the broader attitudes that inform that kind of behavior are all things that we can do that don't involve scaring the living piss out of rape victims.[/QUOTE]
You're really exaggerating the results of such a measure. The fear of genuine victims would only be proportional to the likeliness of the event, which according to you would occur quite rarely. The only way it would have an actually substantial impact is if the press put a sensational spin to it, in which case the problem isn't justice.
I'm also all for trying to go to the root of the issue, but that isn't always effective. Making people aware of how they negatively affect actual rape victims doesn't seem like it would achieve much. People who falsely accuse others of raping them don't do it in good faith in the first place. They don't give a shit about the person they accuse and I'd doubt they give a shit about others period. The only way to make them reconsider is to directly affect them, and that's why punishment for false allegations is a necessity.
If you don't threaten to prosecute people who trigger a train's emergency brake without reason, you're going to get dumb kids pulling it for the shits and giggles.
[QUOTE=Dr. Punchgroin;47762418]That's good that this was caught but it seems like this article is trying to promote the idea that cops don't regularly sexually assault people
which they do[/QUOTE]
not everything has an agenda don't be so paranoid
These things simply happen sometimes, despite what some people would assert.
I try to sympathize with people over the privacy concerns but frankly you're a police officer, you have no privacy, the shit you do is more than worth being documented.
[QUOTE=joes33431;47767577]it's not like screaming "that's bad!" at someone and slapping them with fines and jailtime is the only way to prevent harmful behaviors like false allegations. if that were the case, then our homicide rate would be lower, not higher, than most of the rest of the developed world. preventing [I]all[/I] kinds of crime, regardless of the type, requires remediation at the roots. ergo, a cultural and educational effort to discourage false allegations, to demonstrate their seriousness, and to alter the broader attitudes that inform that kind of behavior are all things that we can do that don't involve scaring the living piss out of rape victims.[/QUOTE]
So you're saying if homicide was legal there wouldn't be any increase over the current rate, because the fines and jailtime have no impact?
Mind, I don't disagree with your general point, but that's a really really stupid implication. There will always be people who will do something society considers "bad", and you can't fix every case by attacking the "root cause".
Laws, and punishments for breaking those laws, need to exist because of this. Furthermore, a law not enforced might as well not exist.
[quote]UPDATE: Albuquerque Police Department spokesman Tanner Tixier told TheBlaze on Monday evening that police were not pursuing additional charges against Griego because, despite the apparent falsehood of her sexual assault claim, police did not want to set a precedent that could discourage other potential victims of sexual assault from coming forward.[/quote]
I understand rape is traumatic mentally as well as physically, but being concern over rape victims not reporting the crime because someone who was [B]caught on camera[/B] lying about being raped was punished is a retarded mindset.
[QUOTE=_Axel;47767783]If finding evidence towards false allegations is as hard as you suggest, then being accused of lying is just as unlikely.[/QUOTE]
yes i'm sure that if several measures to encourage and facilitate prosecuting false allegations were put in place, no actual rapists would ever try to use that in their favor (because let's face it, what self respecting rapist would ever lie in court to try and hinder legal procedures and investigations against them?), and it would definitely not mean more bureaucratic hurdles for traumatized victims to overcome
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47767873]So you're saying if homicide was legal there wouldn't be any increase over the current rate, because the fines and jailtime have no impact?
Mind, I don't disagree with your general point, but that's a really really stupid implication. There will always be people who will do something society considers "bad", and you can't fix every case by attacking the "root cause".
Laws, and punishments for breaking those laws, need to exist because of this. Furthermore, a law not enforced might as well not exist.[/QUOTE]
the argument was not that laws and punishments should be abolished, the argument was that punishment alone is not an effective solution, and that if you want to mitigate the impact of false allegations, then something other than prosecution is likely necessary.
the reasons that i say this are twofold:
- deterrence is not an effective method of preventing an act, especially if it's an act that most of society already finds immoral.
- the impact of false allegations will nevertheless be harmful to the falsely accused if there is no evidence to prove the fraudulent nature of the claim. my argument is that cases where evidence like this exists are both 1) even more uncommon than false accusations in general and 2) less likely to result in problems for the person falsely accused given the evidence already proving the allegation false.
the all-encompassing problem in rape cases is a lack of knowledge. hence, the solutions that i present are thus as follows:
- use technological advancements to improve the chain of evidence in rape cases (such as the case in the OP).
- revise judicial practices and use education and outreach to encourage victims to come forward.
- reform crime statistics practices, because crime statistics are often scarce and inaccurate.
once we've reached those (albeit massive) goals, the problem of false allegations can be more readily assessed and targeted.
[QUOTE=joes33431;47768087] the argument was that punishment alone is not an effective solution, and that if you want to mitigate the impact of false allegations, then something other than prosecution is likely necessary.
[/QUOTE]Doesn't that apply to most crime? This isn't a new concept.
[QUOTE=PollytheParrot;47767684][editline]20th May 2015[/editline]
way to waste a great opportunity[/QUOTE]
Probably couldn't actually stick the charges anyway. She didn't file an actual report and her claim only went public when the police released the details so I don't think you could charge for either false reporting or slander.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;47768031]yes i'm sure that if several measures to encourage and facilitate prosecuting false allegations were put in place, no actual rapists would ever try to use that in their favor (because let's face it, what self respecting rapist would ever lie in court to try and hinder legal procedures and investigations against them?), and it would definitely not mean more bureaucratic hurdles for traumatized victims to overcome[/QUOTE]
Rape is a serious accusation, victims of false accusations should have a legal recourse without having the charges being "swept under the rug" because the police don't want to scare real rape victims from reporting it.
More to the point, everyone has the right to a fair trial, where all possibilities are explored. Going easy on someone because they've been through a traumatic event has no place in the courts.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;47765023]Should at least take in consideration that she was drunk at the time of making the accusation.[/QUOTE]
Being drunk isn't a excuse under the law, you're responsible for you actions regardless. If we went by that logic she wouldn't be getting a DUI.
[QUOTE=MR-X;47768383]Being drunk isn't a excuse under the law, you're responsible for you actions regardless. If we went by that logic she wouldn't be getting a DUI.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I don't understand that standard, if someone is drunk and makes a mistake, you were impaired it wasn't their fault. If someone is drunk and drives a car, you're going to jail asshole.
[QUOTE=AntonioR;47762288]Yeah, but then someone would sue you for recording them without their allowance or something.[/QUOTE]
Thing is though, at least in some countries like mine, it is a crime to record someone without their consent.
Now, [i]obviously[/i], a police bodycam or surveillance cameras don't apply to this. But if you start filming my face without saying shit, and publish/upload it without any conceivable consent, I could (and probably would) report you to da police.
[QUOTE=gekko;47770685]Thing is though, at least in some countries like mine, it is a crime to record someone without their consent.
Now, [i]obviously[/i], a police bodycam or surveillance cameras don't apply to this. But if you start filming my face without saying shit, and publish/upload it without any conceivable consent, I could (and probably would) report you to da police.[/QUOTE]I don't understand why laws of recording without consent exist. Doesn't this make CCTV pretty much illegal?
[QUOTE=itisjuly;47770702]I don't understand why laws of recording without consent exist. Doesn't this make CCTV pretty much illegal?[/QUOTE]
IMO it's a really misguided law and all I've ever seen it do is give (false) excuses for crazies to assault people, like the video of a girl attacking a guy because he was flying a little drone over the beach or the girl trying to start a smear campaign against a guy taking a picture with a star wars cutout.
I don't know why so many people's first reaction is to scream "YOU CAN'T RECORD ME THAT'S AGAINST THE LAW GIVE ME YOUR PHONE NOW!!!"
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;47770767]
I don't know why so many people's first reaction is to scream "YOU CAN'T RECORD ME THAT'S AGAINST THE LAW GIVE ME YOUR PHONE NOW!!!"[/QUOTE]
Most likely they see it as a reason to act wild while being justified by the law.
The police here have only just this year started rolling out dashcams and bodycams.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;47770702]I don't understand why laws of recording without consent exist. Doesn't this make CCTV pretty much illegal?[/QUOTE]
So, you would have no problem with someone filming your face, and following you in public while constantly filming you, and you only? With their personal camera phone or such? You couldn't do anything about it, except like, go home. You can't attack the person, and the person doesn't have to respond to you. I see a problem.
Not a really serious offense though, but a crime regardless. And by going to certain (public) places you also accept/agree that you might show up on cameras, or someone might unintentionally film you. You can't really file a police report because of that lol.
[QUOTE=gekko;47770933]So, you would have no problem with someone filming your face, and following you in public while constantly filming you, and you only? With their personal camera phone or such? You couldn't do anything about it, except like, go home. You can't attack the person, and the person doesn't have to respond to you. I see a problem.[/QUOTE]
That's called being a stalker. Remove the camera and there's still a problem.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;47770951]That's called being a stalker. Remove the camera and there's still a problem.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I guess. Hard to differentiate between a stalker and someone practicing their legal right to film people without their consent.. It'd still be weird.
[QUOTE=gekko;47770933]So, you would have no problem with someone filming your face, and following you in public while constantly filming you, and you only? With their personal camera phone or such? You couldn't do anything about it, except like, go home. You can't attack the person, and the person doesn't have to respond to you. I see a problem.
Not a really serious offense though, but a crime regardless. And by going to certain (public) places you also accept/agree that you might show up on cameras, or someone might unintentionally film you. You can't really file a police report because of that lol.[/QUOTE]
First example sounds like stalking. There are laws against that you know.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.