Muslim fanatics who called for execution of gays face up to seven years in jail
111 replies, posted
[QUOTE=yawmwen;34332127]Racist isn't the right word. Islam isn't a race. It's xenophobia.[/QUOTE]
Though there's a lot of people who utterly despise anyone who looks vaguely like an immigrant. Fuck, I got bullied pretty bad because I had slightly slavic looking eyebrows. Take that in that they'll go that far for just how you look; I'd hate to imagine what the most extreme think of people who are not blonde-haired aryan boys.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;34332010]It is slightly irrational to pick and choose from your holy text. You either believe that is the written word of god, or you don't. There can't be a middle ground that says "Well, the holy text is sort of divine, but not completely"[/quote]
You call it irrational, others call it adapting it to the 21st century. There are simply those who see certain texts in their respective holy text as obsolete, which I'll get to in a second below.
[quote]Now Christians at least have the benefit of the New Testament, where a few verses say not to apply Mosaic law to other people. However, Judaism and Islam have some very clear rules to follow. These are not interpretable rules, these do not have wiggle room. It says that homosexuality is punishable by death, it says that adultery is punishable by death. If you are a rational person you cannot accept these rules, because by accepting them, you are by definition irrational. [/quote]
I'll give that there are quite a few Muslim-majority nations that abide by this. Yet there are secular Muslim nations where Sharia is involved in family and personal matters and is not enforced as rigidly as you'd suggest. And I'm pretty damn sure the ones practicing it are "reasonable people", as you so put it, quite a few being gay Muslims because it's even practiced in households in the UK and US.
[quote]How can you interpret:
“And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them. And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.”
as anything [i]except[/i] a death sentence for homosexuals -this is in context of the People of Lut, who are Sodomites- unless they give up their gayness.
How can you interpret:
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."[/QUOTE]
You interpret them as obsolete in a modern society, which is exactly what liberal Muslim groups like the Al-Fatiha Foundation see it as. I, again, encourage you to actually do some research on liberal Islamic movements instead of scrambling to find texts in the Koran that is, and this might astonish you, interpreted differently or not at all by certain ways of thinking in the religion.
[QUOTE=LiquidNazgul;34334673]You call it irrational, others call it adapting it to the 21st century. There are simply those who see certain texts in their respective holy text as obsolete, which I'll get to in a second below.[/quote]
That means that they are ignoring their holy text. Which is technically ignorant, and still crazy(why call yourself a muslim if you don't believe the qu'ran is the holy word?), but you have to understand that ignorant and slightly crazy is a large step better than being consistent with the holy texts.
[quote]I'll give that there are quite a few Muslim-majority nations that abide by this. Yet there are secular Muslim nations where Sharia is involved in family and personal matters and is not enforced as rigidly as you'd suggest. And I'm pretty damn sure the ones practicing it are "reasonable people", as you so put it, quite a few being gay Muslims because it's even practiced in households in the UK and US.[/quote]
Sharia is a premise based around subjugation of women, hating gays and hating jews. Sharia in itself is outdated, and anyone who follows Sharia is barbaric in my eyes. That goes the same for any religion that preaches a hateful message, including Judaism and Christianity(although Christianity is still slightly more complicated with their "second edition" bible).
[quote]You interpret them as obsolete in a modern society, which is exactly what liberal Muslim groups like the Al-Fatiha Foundation see it as. I, again, encourage you to actually do some research on liberal Islamic movements instead of scrambling to find texts in the Koran that is, and this might astonish you, interpreted differently or not at all by certain ways of thinking in the religion.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying that all muslims are fundamentalist, or bad, which is the message that I think you are getting from my posts. I'll make this clear.
[b]In order to be a rational, moderate muslim, jew, or christian, you have to either outright ignore your holy text, or not be aware of what is actually written in the holy text.
If you are either ignoring it, or ignorant of it, you can be a rational, moderate, religious person.[/b]
The thing about Christianity is several major churches, the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox, the and even the Mormons for example, teach that it is not the state of being homosexual that is sinful but homosexual acts themselves. Take the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which calls for compassion and sympathy for homosexuals on account of the trial that their attractions present them. The Catholic Church even goes as far as to call for national level regulation to prevent violence against homosexuals. Far from preaching a hateful message, the Catholic Church and others preach tolerance and sympathy for homosexuals. It is true that there are some minority denominations that preach hatred and condemnation but this is mostly due to the locale of these churches and should be noted as being contradictory to Christ's theology. It is a hasty generalization to say that based on that example all Christianity is hateful and barbaric.
[QUOTE=Paramud;34332086]Handing out pamphlets is just a tad different from planning on executing a large group of people.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]The first, entitled ‘Death penalty?’ proclaimed that ‘Allah permits the destruction’ of gay people and that ‘the only question is how it should be carried out’.
The second, entitled ‘Turn or Burn’, featured a burning figure in a blazing lake of fire and warned that the decriminalisation of homosexuality was ‘the root of all problems’.
A third, entitled ‘GAY - God Abhors You’, warned of ‘severe punishment’ for homosexuals.[/QUOTE]
It's a set of pamphlets that say "gays are what ills you all, should be killed, we just need to figure out how, and they should be ready for it" read as anything [I]other than[/I] planning on executing a large group of people?
Can you [I]read?[/I]
[QUOTE=yawmwen;34334808]That means that they are ignoring their holy text. Which is technically ignorant, and still crazy(why call yourself a muslim if you don't believe the qu'ran is the holy word?), but you have to understand that ignorant and slightly crazy is a large step better than being consistent with the holy texts. [/quote]
I've never seen "ignorant" used in a positive connotation, but if that's what you call Islamic modernists, so be it.
[quote]I'm not saying that all muslims are fundamentalist, or bad[/quote]
No, just barbaric apparently.
[quote][b]In order to be a rational, moderate muslim, jew, or christian, you have to either outright ignore your holy text, or not be aware of what is actually written in the holy text.
If you are either ignoring it, or ignorant of it, you can be a rational, moderate, religious person.[/b][/QUOTE]
That is correct, to an extent. Yes, certain texts are seen as outdated or needs revision by liberal Abrahamic followers and therefore ignored. But that doesn't mean by any means you MUST ignore the rest of the entire holy text. I don't set the definitions here, this is simply how they perceive it as. Call it irrational, or crazy, whatever term you feel like you must apply to it, but that's simply how it is.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;34327567]But if they aren't planning on actually doing it then all they're really doing is expressing and opinion. Regardless of how wrong their ideas are, you can't start censoring opinions.
If someone says "I wish someone would kill David Cameron" are they guilty of plotting to assassinate the prime minister?[/QUOTE]
There's a difference between wishing death on someone and trying to make it a law to kill a group of people.
These people are actively trying to make the death penalty for gays a reality.
[QUOTE=ChilColdCoolaid;34341661]There's a difference between wishing death on someone and trying to make it a law to kill a group of people.
These people are actively trying to make the death penalty for gays a reality.[/QUOTE]
They handed some leaflets out, that's it, and if I'm honest, I doubt they even have a political party, so it's not like they could actually do anything to make the execution of gays legal.
[QUOTE=LiquidNazgul;34322697]Because every Muslim in the UK is part of a single monolithic, hive mind entity and all think the exact same.[/QUOTE]
That's what I was told that huge black box at mecca was for
Am I wrong
[QUOTE=Kljunas;34329535]Homophobia isn't a choice, show some respect.[/QUOTE]
This kinda makes me wonder. If phobia of spiders or clowns is legit, why can't phobia of gays be? I mean, what if I am seriously scared of gays and can't help myself?
Or is homophobia hate for gays and not fear?
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;34344012]This kinda makes me wonder. If phobia of spiders or clowns is legit, why can't phobia of gays be? I mean, what if I am seriously scared of gays and can't help myself?
Or is homophobia hate for gays and not fear?[/QUOTE]
Homophobia is usually used as a term to describe those who hate them, no really those who are afraid of them.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;34345162]Homophobia is usually used as a term to describe those who hate them, no really those who are afraid of them.[/QUOTE]
But couldn't you make the argument that the hate is in itself a reaction or manifestation of deep seated fear?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;34345299]But couldn't you make the argument that the hate is in itself a reaction or manifestation of deep seated fear?[/QUOTE]
That can absolutely be the case.
Usually it isn't.
Good. Glad these fanatics are facing jail for something that is as stupidly common for medieval times, in modern day.
[QUOTE=Paramud;34345370]That can absolutely be the case.
Usually it isn't.[/QUOTE]
Why not? Anger and hate are generally felt for someone who threatens you in some way. If you don't perceive a threat, you don't feel hate(in a general sense). Now what could a gay person threaten? A perceived way of life, perceived sanctity. They are afraid gays could take that lifestyle from them, and so they hate gays.
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;34325445]I have. Nice people generally, but I still get uncomfortable.[/QUOTE]
No offense, but your comfort level with people you don't understand has absolutely nothing to do with their legitimacy. You can say they make you uncomfortable, but to say you 'disagree' with them is to imply that you believe they're faking it or something.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;34345469]Why not? Anger and hate are generally felt for someone who threatens you in some way. If you don't perceive a threat, you don't feel hate(in a general sense). Now what could a gay person threaten? A perceived way of life, perceived sanctity. They are afraid gays could take that lifestyle from them, and so they hate gays.[/QUOTE]
In my experience, homophobes usually hate homosexuals because a book tells them to.
[QUOTE=Paramud;34345507]In my experience, homophobes usually hate homosexuals because a book tells them to.[/QUOTE]
I'm just giving out food for thought here.
[QUOTE=znk666;34322414]How ignorant and disrespectful!
They were only expressing their beliefs![/QUOTE]
Not sure if this is sarcasm...
[QUOTE=yawmwen;34345677]I'm just giving out food for thought here.[/QUOTE]
I know, and I agree with your point. There are some homophobes out there that are just afraid of homosexuals.
It's just that, unfortunately, that's a small minority of them.
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