• Embrace the nerdgasm! Super capacitors advancing into the real world!
    97 replies, posted
[QUOTE=ultra_bright;39681535]OP needs a video. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtM6XJlynkk[/media][/QUOTE] Added to OP <3
As a robotics hobbyist, I very much welcome this news.
[QUOTE=ultra_bright;39681535]OP needs a video. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtM6XJlynkk[/media][/QUOTE] "Graphene Supercapacitor: High energy storage, fast charge [i]and discharge[/i]" @ 2:29 So what sort of effects would it discharging so quickly as well have? If it drained that quick, in say, a phone, would it ruin the phone with the electricity going through it or just enough to power the phone as usual power consumption?
[QUOTE=Stonecycle;39685140]"Graphene Supercapacitor: High energy storage, fast charge [i]and discharge[/i]" @ 2:29 So what sort of effects would it discharging so quickly as well have?[/QUOTE] My electronics knowledge is very rusty but you could probably just use resistors to slow down the high specific power of the super capacitor
[QUOTE=Raijin;39680171]dude, imagine plugging in your dead phone and seeing a progress bar for the "battery" go to max in like 45 seconds. it's like batteries are going from 56k to fiber optics[/QUOTE] I always thought that the faster a traditional battery is recharged, the quicker it loses the maximum charge it can hold. Doing that a few times would ruin your battery.
These aren't batteries. Capacitor =/= Battery Batteries come in various forms but most of the time they use chemical reactions to generate electricity. Capacitors on the other hand are essentially a coil of conductive sheet material that holds onto enormous static charges.
My concern is danger as a result of the energy density. Short a potato battery and nothing happens. Short an alkaline battery and you get some sparks. Short a lithium-polymer battery and it [I]explodes[/I]. The more energy you cram into a small space, the more volatile and dangerous it is if damaged. I'm not sure how comfortably I'd be with a laptop that doubles as a demolition charge, or driving a car that could go Ford Pinto but take out the entire city block in the process. Edit: The same issue applies to capacitors. Ever read about people being injured by accidentally discharging charged capacitors in old CRT monitors?
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;39685761]My electronics knowledge is very rusty but you could probably just use resistors to slow down the high specific power of the super capacitor[/QUOTE] There's two categories to deal with here: Shorts and loads. A short is literally just a straight shot from either side of the voltage potential, the kind of stuff that burns wires and releases the "magic smoke" and tends to make batteries explode from over-heating. Literally ALL power is allowed to travel through the conductor in a short, or at least as much as it can handle before being vaporized. A load is a means for the electricity to perform work, and limits the amount of electricity flowing through it as either a resistive, inductive (motor coils, relay coils, etc.) or capacitive. Semi-conductors in their "on" state are pretty much a direct short, so resistors and other means are typically used to limit the amount of power that goes through them, and they're usually connected to loads on the output side of things anyway. [QUOTE=Stonecycle;39685140]"Graphene Supercapacitor: High energy storage, fast charge [i]and discharge[/i]" @ 2:29 So what sort of effects would it discharging so quickly as well have? If it drained that quick, in say, a phone, would it ruin the phone with the electricity going through it or just enough to power the phone as usual power consumption?[/QUOTE] So taking from what I posted before, this means that super-capacitors have a distinct advantage over batteries in such cases that a load (like a high-powered motor, which tends to require a lot more power on start-up than when running) demands it, with little to no risk of over-heating damage that a battery would suffer in a similar case. Obviously most devices that super-caps would be used for (phones, other light-weight applications) don't require huge amounts of power, but they require power over time, which super-caps can also easily meet that requirement.
Lithium is an incredibly volatile element Also once again, capacitor =/= battery. A lithium battery uses a chemical reaction to release electricity (inherently volatile), whereas the capacitor is simply a construct that holds onto electrons that are put into it.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;39685814]These aren't batteries. Capacitor =/= Battery Batteries come in various forms but most of the time they use chemical reactions to generate electricity. Capacitors on the other hand are essentially a coil of conductive sheet material that holds onto enormous static charges.[/QUOTE] I thought the dude was talking about using the capacitor to charge the lithium battery. [editline]23rd February 2013[/editline] I'm also assuming you said that in response to me.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;39685875]Lithium is an incredibly volatile element Also once again, capacitor =/= battery. A lithium battery uses a chemical reaction to release electricity (inherently volatile), whereas the capacitor is simply a construct that holds onto electrons that are put into it.[/QUOTE] Either way, if it discharges quickly there's going to be some fireworks. The energy has to go somewhere and if it's all given off as heat there are going to be problems.
[QUOTE=catbarf;39685930]Either way, if it discharges quickly there's going to be some fireworks. The energy has to go somewhere and if it's all given off as heat there are going to be problems.[/QUOTE] Even then it can be ludicrously dangerous. (Hopefully) everyone here knows precisely why you shouldn't fuck with your computer's PSU unless you're a trained professional.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;39685893]I thought the dude was talking about using the capacitor to charge the lithium battery. [editline]23rd February 2013[/editline] I'm also assuming you said that in response to me.[/QUOTE] Yeah. sorry. He said "battery" so I figured he meant a super capacitor in place of the battery, which I think is what they hope to do. [editline]23rd February 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=catbarf;39685930]Either way, if it discharges quickly there's going to be some fireworks. The energy has to go somewhere and if it's all given off as heat there are going to be problems.[/QUOTE] Well yeah, but people are already warned to stay away from capacitors. They are dangerous and can cause lethal electric shocks so the routine would largely remain the same. Maybe it just needs bigger warning labels :v:
What's cool is that they're already being implemented. Mazda is putting them in the new 6 and it's the first car to have a capacitor. It can be charged full during braking and hold enough juice to power the AC and sound system for a full minute or 2 without using the engine for the electrical supply.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;39685939]Well yeah, but people are already warned to stay away from capacitors. They are dangerous and can cause lethal electric shocks so the routine would largely remain the same. Maybe it just needs bigger warning labels :v:[/QUOTE] I'm not worried about people sticking screwdrivers where they don't belong, I'm worried about mechanical failures. A few weeks ago, one of my roommates was in class when he noticed his laptop suddenly rising off the desk. He had about five seconds to pull the battery out and throw it before it ruptured and caught fire. I'm thinking stuff like that, where unintentional damage accrued through normal operation could cause it to lose containment and discharge. Or, consider cars. An electric car that can cross the US in one charge would be awesome- but if a ten-car pileup turns into ground zero of a mushroom cloud, we have a problem. Or, worse still, what if it could be weaponized? What if you could induce a chain reaction in a laptop, turning the metal and plastic of the case into shards of shrapnel from an improvised bomb? It would be a terror weapon completely indistinguishable from an ordinary computer. And, of course, it's one thing to get a shock if you open up a computer monitor, but if it contains enough power to kill you, consumer safety advocates would be all over it. I'm just saying, the more power you cram into a piece of tech, the more potentially dangerous that tech becomes, and there are some serious ramifications to this line of technological development. I get that what applies to capacitors doesn't necessarily translate over to batteries and vice versa, but I think you get the gist of what I'm saying.
You can email the professor behind this at: [email]rbk@chem.ucla.edu[/email] :v:
[QUOTE=catbarf;39685835] Edit: The same issue applies to capacitors. Ever read about people being injured by accidentally discharging charged capacitors in old CRT monitors?[/QUOTE] I've seen it first hand, more than once. :v:
The video was connected to General Electric, a pretty damn huge conglomerate, so we're lucky that this invention has the support of the industry, and won't have to fight battery/whatever companies for implementation. Not as much, anyways.
If GE has their mitts on it you can bet they are going to monopolise the shit out of it.
[QUOTE=Brandy92;39686486]If GE has their mitts on it you can bet they are going to monopolise the shit out of it.[/QUOTE] Probably. But atleast it will be introduced into the market rather than the alternative of an invention falling into uselessness because some big company didn't see/didn't have the resources to see the possible innovation and usefulness.
[QUOTE=ewitwins;39679921] A recap for y'all. [/QUOTE] you're too kind.
[QUOTE=Stonecycle;39685140]"Graphene Supercapacitor: High energy storage, fast charge [i]and discharge[/i]" @ 2:29 So what sort of effects would it discharging so quickly as well have? If it drained that quick, in say, a phone, would it ruin the phone with the electricity going through it or just enough to power the phone as usual power consumption?[/QUOTE] One way to simplify it would be to say that a circuit only draws as much power as it needs/wants (unless it's malfunctioning).
So these can't exactly be drop-in replacements for batteries right now, can they?
this thread is filled with scientists I like it
[QUOTE=Killerelf12;39680362]And to get the voltage high enough with a lot of them, you lose their super capacitance. Total capacitance of a series of capacitors is[B] the sum of the inverses[/B]... So you need X number of capacitors in series to reach a voltage, and then X sets of X capacitors to achieve the same capacitance as 1 capacitor at that higher voltage. Basically you'd need a fuckton of caps for that. Also to people worried about power draw, just because a super capacitor can draw that much, it's not like devices won't include some sort of circuit resistance to limit the current draw. Common power outlets will only handle about 10-15A anyway.[/QUOTE] the inverse of the sum of the inverses*
[QUOTE=PN_Redux;39686024]It can be charged full during braking and hold enough juice to power the AC and sound system for a full minute or 2 without using the engine for the electrical supply.[/QUOTE] Braking once is enough to run an air conditioner for a couple minutes? Why are we not using braking to generate power in all vehicles?
Ok so like...attach all of the devices to a receiver, and wirelessly charge everything in one huge pulse sent out every hour. Oh but then cancer. Nevermind.
[QUOTE=hovergroovie;39687526]Ok so like...attach all of the devices to a receiver, and wirelessly charge everything in one huge pulse sent out every hour. Oh but then cancer. Nevermind.[/QUOTE] Or you know plug them into the mains for 5 seconds, let it fully cjharge and run your phone for a day. And you realise that at this very moment you are actually bathed in many forms of radiation from many different sources right? That's not how cancer works.
[QUOTE=catbarf;39685835]My concern is danger as a result of the energy density. Short a potato battery and nothing happens. Short an alkaline battery and you get some sparks. Short a lithium-polymer battery and it [I]explodes[/I]. The more energy you cram into a small space, the more volatile and dangerous it is if damaged. I'm not sure how comfortably I'd be with a laptop that doubles as a demolition charge, or driving a car that could go Ford Pinto but take out the entire city block in the process. Edit: The same issue applies to capacitors. Ever read about people being injured by accidentally discharging charged capacitors in old CRT monitors?[/QUOTE] The explosion with a lithium batter isn't exactly due to to the high energy density. It's more to do with the fact that lithium is an incredible reactive element and the fact that the baterry works chemically. What you also need to realise, that is not a battery in the traditional sense. A battery is actually an electricity generator and does this generally with a chemical reaction. It's also one of the reasons batteries generally have charge cycles. This on the other hand stores energy directly in a sense. It doesn't release it in a reaction. Which is also why it charges so quickly. It doesn't have to under go a chemical reaction in the first place. Think of it I don't know - a carpet brimming with static electricity. [QUOTE=Zeke129;39687505]Braking once is enough to run an air conditioner for a couple minutes? Why are we not using braking to generate power in all vehicles?[/QUOTE] Mostly because non electrics didn't need to have as many ways as possible to harness spare energy
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;39687546]Or you know plug them into the mains for 5 seconds, let it fully cjharge and run your phone for a day. And you realise that at this very moment you are actually bathed in many forms of radiation from many different sources right? That's not how cancer works.[/QUOTE] I just meant I wanted to remove the need to plug in all together. The cancer thing was a joke...but I only put that up there because I forgot the internet is SERIOUS BUSINESS. Lastly I thought it would be cooler in one big pulse because that's the kind of thing they do in the movies...
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