• Poll: More Democrats Now Favor Socialism Than Capitalism
    250 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48980279]Socialism isn't inherently corrupt and amoral any more then capitalism is. [editline]25th October 2015[/editline] The microcosm isn't representative of the macrocosm.[/QUOTE] it is amoral because its statist and parasitic on the succesful of society [editline]25th October 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48980111]Healthcare shouldn't be a for profit business, and our healthcare here is top notch.[/QUOTE] so what youre really saying is that government monopolized insurances with a 1% growth a year (which isnt a lot compared to private ones) is the only thing which pays for itself and the rest doesnt?
[QUOTE=shadow_oap;48975820]I think people are just tired of having the corporations and bankers having so much power over our political system. Overall, Capitalism down 4, Socialism down 1.[/QUOTE] Socialism isn't automatically people++ and corporations--. It can often do quite the opposite depending on the government. ultimately, it's government++++++++++++++++ and it comes down to how the government distributes that power.
[QUOTE=Kentz;48980629]it is amoral because its statist and parasitic on the succesful of society [editline]25th October 2015[/editline] so what youre really saying is that government monopolized insurances with a 1% growth a year (which isnt a lot compared to private ones) is the only thing which pays for itself and the rest doesnt?[/QUOTE] Every other insurer in North America lost money that year so I think you should actually slow down for a minute. No. Our crown corporations handle a lot of things and they do so because we as the people want that. It's turned out to work well for Canada.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48979393]and we could have gotten away with it too... if it wasn't for that meddling Georgian i mean how deluded must one be to believe that's how it actually went down? it was a complex process whereby a repressive state broke down in the midst of war and revolution and was reconstituted by repressive and violent measures lenin established the gulags, the cheka, had peasants shot, innocent people arrested, genuine workers self-rule destroyed, etc all stalin did was take the process to its logical conclusion. the whole reason he managed to get into power is because the soviet state was built up in such a way that democratic participation was basically impossible if trotsky came to power you'd still see the ussr becoming a totalitarian shithole[/QUOTE] It's worth noting that while criticism of Lenin is accurate, neither Lenin nor Stalin ultimately represent the socialist ideal and socialist goals. Before liberals had anything to say about Lenin, other socialists were already criticizing him, and other socialists had accurately predicted of the rise of Marx-Leninist or similar ideologies and warned against it. However, the idea of USSR being representative of socialism is great for the propaganda efforts of both Marx-Leninists and western liberals, so it doesn't particularly surprise me that people still buy into the bullshit.
[QUOTE=daschnek;48980859]It's worth noting that while criticism of Lenin is accurate, neither Lenin nor Stalin ultimately represent the socialist ideal and socialist goals. Before liberals had anything to say about Lenin, other socialists were already criticizing him, and other socialists had accurately predicted of the rise of Marx-Leninist or similar ideologies and warned against it. However, the idea of USSR being representative of socialism is great for the propaganda efforts of both Marx-Leninists and western liberals, so it doesn't particularly surprise me that people still buy into the bullshit.[/QUOTE] How many failed attempts and murdered millions do you need to see the system is flawed and cannot work? Socialism has never worked, in its various iterations, over multiple different countries.
Socialism has basically become a meaningless word. People that dislike a certain economic policy will call it socialist, while others will use the word socialism as an edgy way to describe their beliefs.
[QUOTE=Ziron;48980906]Socialism has basically become a meaningless word. People that dislike a certain economic policy will call it socialist, while others will use the word socialism as an edgy way to describe their beliefs.[/QUOTE] socialism, capitalism, left, right... probably more. All meaningless. You can never know what someone means by using those words and it ruins any discussion.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48980900]How many failed attempts and murdered millions do you need to see the system is flawed and cannot work? Socialism has never worked, in its various iterations, over multiple different countries.[/QUOTE] so an attempt at democratic socialism shouldn't be attempted at all and we should just let private industry decide the level of regulation they desire? Because enacting social safety laws to regulate those private industries is social programs, an aspect of socialism, so is that bad? Should we not regulate things? I'm not a socialist by any means but I highly believe in social programs that exist to help the people the nation represents, not just the corporation the nation represents.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48980921]so an attempt at democratic socialism shouldn't be attempted at all and we should just let private industry decide the level of regulation they desire? Because enacting social safety laws to regulate those private industries is social programs, an aspect of socialism, so is that bad? Should we not regulate things? I'm not a socialist by any means but I highly believe in social programs that exist to help the people the nation represents, not just the corporation the nation represents.[/QUOTE] Social democracy is fine, but socialism is terrible. Like it's possible to support public healthcare and free market economics at the same time.
[QUOTE=MatheusMCardoso;48980915]socialism, capitalism, left, right... probably more. All meaningless. You can never know what someone means by using those words and it ruins any discussion.[/QUOTE] Liberalism (I blame Americans for their outrageous distortion of the word of epic proportions to now simply mean 'left-wing') Neoliberalism Fascism Nazism Socialism Communism I would say are all [I]completely[/I] meaningless most of the time. Left/Right isn't meaningless, but depends heavily on geographical/political context - They gain meaning from something being relatively left/right wing rather than simply being 'left wing' or 'right wing'. Capitalism is no longer useful because there are so few genuine socialist countries left, but if more socialist governments come into power, it may become useful again. I would say that people should use the terms 'free-market', 'mixed economy' and 'social democracy' when trying to describe economic/political systems. In my opinion, unless you completely reject the entire market system, you are not socialist, and shouldn't describe yourself as a 'socialist' but rather a 'social democrat'. [editline]25th October 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48980921]so an attempt at democratic socialism shouldn't be attempted at all and we should just let private industry decide the level of regulation they desire? Because enacting social safety laws to regulate those private industries is social programs, an aspect of socialism, so is that bad? Should we not regulate things? I'm not a socialist by any means but I highly believe in social programs that exist to help the people the nation represents, not just the corporation the nation represents.[/QUOTE] Social democracy =/= Socialism Completely different. At least from how I define the two words. I'm to the right of self-declared 'social democrats', but I can have a debate with them and I think they can be reasonable, intelligent people. I don't think the same about self-declared 'communists' and 'socialists' (if they really mean 'socialist' in my sense of the word).
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48980944] Social democracy =/= Socialism Completely different. At least from how I define the two words. I'm to the right of self-declared 'social democrats', but I can have a debate with them and I think they can be reasonable, intelligent people. I don't think the same about self-declared 'communists' and 'socialists' (if they really mean 'socialist' in my sense of the word).[/QUOTE] see, once those are defined clearly in the conversation then yes, i totally agree with you. Those terms are far too nebulous until they're well defined.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48975774]Well that's unfortunate.[/QUOTE] Socialism and previous systems under the name of socialism are two different things, I think we're heading for a post capitalist society wherein we implement the best of capitalism with the best of socialism. Free healthcare and nationalized essential services like here in the UK. I mean our current education system is broken as fuck but less broken as fuck but there's no real alternative, with capitalism it's the same. But we can still borrow the good parts of the alternatives.
[QUOTE=Rossy167;48980966]Socialism and previous systems under the name of socialism are two different things, I think we're heading for a post capitalist society wherein we implement the best of capitalism with the best of socialism. Free healthcare and nationalized essential services like here in the UK. I mean our current education system is broken as fuck but less broken as fuck but there's no real alternative, with capitalism it's the same. But we can still borrow the good parts of the alternatives.[/QUOTE] Been reading some Paul Mason?
Obviously a lot of the older generation favors old ideas because a lot of my friends who are between the ages of 20 and 30 favor socialism (as well as myself). I really hope we get some socialist type stuff in my life time.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48980900]How many failed attempts and murdered millions do you need to see the system is flawed and cannot work? Socialism has never worked, in its various iterations, over multiple different countries.[/QUOTE] Ah, yes the good ol' "socialism has never worked" in spite of the fact that you can find socialist principles in action around the world, without looking to state socialism.
[QUOTE=apierce1289;48981036]Obviously a lot of the older generation favors old ideas because a lot of my friends who are between the ages of 20 and 30 favor socialism (as well as myself). I really hope we get some socialist type stuff in my life time.[/QUOTE] The problem is that as more millennials get older and start really entering the working force, their views will shift, just like with any other generation. For example, I've found my economic beliefs shifting more towards libertarianism as I start really entering the workforce.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48980976]Been reading some Paul Mason?[/QUOTE] Actually parroting something a Sociology teacher once said in the one lesson of sociology I did before I dropped it for Economics.
[QUOTE=daschnek;48981191]Ah, yes the good ol' "socialism has never worked" in spite of the fact that you can find socialist principles in action around the world, without looking to state socialism.[/QUOTE] Already discussed. You're referring to social democracy, not socialism.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48981222]Already discussed. You're referring to social democracy, not socialism.[/QUOTE] No, I'm actually referring to anarchist principles, but good try. Seed_Eater had examples in his big post, and it's not limited to those examples either.
But you aren't. You literally just said 'socialist principles'.
[QUOTE=Kentz;48979600]how have i benefited from social democracy? by them stealing 75% of my income? by providing the worst education in europe? by financing an inept health care system with super long queues with said 75% of my money?[/QUOTE] You keep saying 75% but Sweden doesn't have an income tax rate that high. You're charged up to 31% of your income up to 433,900 kr, an additional 20% for any income above that (so 51%) up to 615,700 kr, and 31% +25% (so 56%) on anything higher than that. If you make 433,900 kr you pay 31% of that in tax. If you make above 433,900 kr you pay 31% on the 433,900 kr and 51% on any amount after that up to 615,700 kr. If you make more than 615,700 kr you pay 31% on the 433,900 kr, 51% on the money earned after the first bracket up to 615,700 kr, and 56% on anything above that. Also, how the fuck is tax stealing? How is a government taking the money necessary to fund public services stealing? You benefit from living in your country, it's your responsibility to pay back into the system.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48981252]But you aren't. You literally just said 'socialist principles'.[/QUOTE] Well, yes, I did. That's because we generally tend to identify the two things as one and the same.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;48981428]You keep saying 75% but Sweden doesn't have an income tax rate that high. You're charged up to 31% of your income up to 433,900 kr, an additional 20% for any income above that (so 51%) up to 615,700 kr, and 31% +25% (so 56%) on anything higher than that. If you make 433,900 kr you pay 31% of that in tax. If you make above 433,900 kr you pay 31% on the 433,900 kr and 51% on any amount after that up to 615,700 kr. If you make more than 615,700 kr you pay 31% on the 433,900 kr, 51% on the money earned after the first bracket up to 615,700 kr, and 56% on anything above that. Also, how the fuck is tax stealing? How is a government taking the money necessary to fund public services stealing? You benefit from living in your country, it's your responsibility to pay back into the system.[/QUOTE] Anyone who refers to taxes as "stealing" is an idiot as far as I'm concerned.
Also you don't pay any income tax if your income is 18,800 kr or below.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48979393]and we could have gotten away with it too... if it wasn't for that meddling Georgian i mean how deluded must one be to believe that's how it actually went down? it was a complex process whereby a repressive state broke down in the midst of war and revolution and was reconstituted by repressive and violent measures lenin established the gulags, the cheka, had peasants shot, innocent people arrested, genuine workers self-rule destroyed, etc all stalin did was take the process to its logical conclusion. the whole reason he managed to get into power is because the soviet state was built up in such a way that democratic participation was basically impossible if trotsky came to power you'd still see the ussr becoming a totalitarian shithole[/QUOTE] Dude, I never said it was Stalin alone who did it. I specifically said "like Stalin" AKA not Stalin alone. Obviously Lenin had a hand in it and Trotsky would have probably done something similar to Stalin, not to mention all of Stalin's cronies. How stupid do you think I am going "hurr durr blame stalin communism is great hurr hurr"?
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;48981428]You keep saying 75% but Sweden doesn't have an income tax rate that high. You're charged up to 31% of your income up to 433,900 kr, an additional 20% for any income above that (so 51%) up to 615,700 kr, and 31% +25% (so 56%) on anything higher than that. If you make 433,900 kr you pay 31% of that in tax. If you make above 433,900 kr you pay 31% on the 433,900 kr and 51% on any amount after that up to 615,700 kr. If you make more than 615,700 kr you pay 31% on the 433,900 kr, 51% on the money earned after the first bracket up to 615,700 kr, and 56% on anything above that. Also, how the fuck is tax stealing? How is a government taking the money necessary to fund public services stealing? You benefit from living in your country, it's your responsibility to pay back into the system.[/QUOTE] my employer pays ~35% tax on my income before i get it, and afterwards i pay 33% so its ~70% tax on my income if you earn 25 000 swedish crowns, the state steals 17 500 of those and yet there is a money problem lol its stealing because its without my constent, simple as that. id rather pay 0% tax, earn 60 000 a month with no state funded bullshit than earning 20 000 with state funded bullshit [editline]26th October 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Helix Snake;48981454]Anyone who refers to taxes as "stealing" is an idiot as far as I'm concerned.[/QUOTE] anybody who wants to get eaten by a snake is an idiot as far as am concerned
[QUOTE=Rossy167;48980966]Socialism and previous systems under the name of socialism are two different things, I think we're heading for a post capitalist society wherein we implement the best of capitalism with the best of socialism. Free healthcare and nationalized essential services like here in the UK. I mean our current education system is broken as fuck but less broken as fuck but there's no real alternative, with capitalism it's the same. But we can still borrow the good parts of the alternatives.[/QUOTE] In 20 years diagnostics in healthcare will be so dirt cheap we can predict if you're going to have a chronic condition very early on, we will be able to very rapidly diagnose any common illness and supply a targeted medication, and the cost of all this hopefully will crash as the great improvements to diagnostics will help catch the worst conditions in their early stages and allow for the right medicine to be used first time all the time That's all fine and well but the US is still on a downwards trajectory, its not large, its not sudden, but we need to stop this inceasent bickering in Congress, we need large reforms to many important pieces of the law and we have to stand strong and united against our ideological enemies, china isn't going to go to war with us, but they still see democracy as their greatest ideological enemy and a world made up of Chinese styled governments is an Orwellian one
So you don't know how the tax is taken from you. Your employers gets taxed first, then you get taxed on the money that's left after that. The government aren't taking 70% of your money, that's not even how those taxes would add up if they were taken at the same time. I'd rather a world where everyone was healthy forever and no one had to work for anything because magical fairies did everything for us, I'm not going to bitch that that isn't that case. I'm sure you'd love a world where the police, fire departments, ambulance services, and hospitals charged a month's wage just to see you. And of course there's a money problem, we're coming off a global recession.
[QUOTE=Kentz;48982105]my employer pays ~35% tax on my income before i get it, and afterwards i pay 33% so its ~70% tax on my income if you earn 25 000 swedish crowns, the state steals 17 500 of those and yet there is a money problem lol its stealing because its without my constent, simple as that. id rather pay 0% tax, earn 60 000 a month with no state funded bullshit than earning 20 000 with state funded bullshit [editline]26th October 2015[/editline] anybody who wants to get eaten by a snake is an idiot as far as am concerned[/QUOTE] That's not how taxes work, your income isn't taxed twice your employer is deducting that money on their taxes, and on an income that's that low your not paying that high of a rate
I live in Southern California and pay at least 50% of my income in taxes and fees through the following: - Federal income tax - State income tax - Sales tax - Property tax - Gas tax - Higher prices on all goods from business taxes - Payroll taxes - Phone taxes - Car registration fees - Pet registration fees - and any number of small taxes on things that add up What do I get from those taxes? Police that show up late if you ever need them, a terrible school system, roads that are generally in bad shape, ridiculously slow services like the DMV (deal with all car related things like licenses), badly kept public parks, etc. etc. etc.
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