Poll: More Democrats Now Favor Socialism Than Capitalism
250 replies, posted
[QUOTE=sgman91;48982387]I live in Southern California and pay at least 50% of my income in taxes and fees through the following:
- Federal income tax
- State income tax
[B]- Sales tax
- Property tax
- Gas tax
- Higher prices on all goods from business taxes
- Payroll taxes
- Phone taxes
- Car registration fees
- Pet registration fees
- and any number of small taxes on things that add up[/B]
What do I get from those taxes? Police that show up late if you ever need them, a terrible school system, roads that are generally in bad shape, ridiculously slow services like the DMV (deal with all car related things like licenses), badly kept public parks, etc. etc. etc.[/QUOTE]
None of these things are income tax. These are things that are taken in specific circumstances. Higher prices on goods from business tax is a problem with the businesses, not the government. Sales tax only applies when you buy something (and is also ridiculously low in America). You only pay car and pet fees if you have a car or a pet. You don't even pay payroll taxes, that's something your employer pays.
Does no one who complains about taxes actually know how they work?
[QUOTE=sgman91;48982387]I live in Southern California and pay at least 50% of my income in taxes and fees through the following:
- Federal income tax
- State income tax
- Sales tax
- Property tax
- Gas tax
- Higher prices on all goods from business taxes
- Payroll taxes
- Phone taxes
- Car registration fees
- Pet registration fees
- and any number of small taxes on things that add up
What do I get from those taxes? Police that show up late if you ever need them, a terrible school system, roads that are generally in bad shape, ridiculously slow services like the DMV (deal with all car related things like licenses), badly kept public parks, etc. etc. etc.[/QUOTE]
What the fuck are you doing to pay that much in taxes. I'm an independent contractor and I'm still paying a tenth of what I earn in taxes every year, along with minor things like sales tax, and a $60 tax for my car every month.
You're criticism of state facilities is somewhat valid, however, the DMV is ridiculous.
Is California that stupid? Cause over here in Virginia it's not like that, but it's still stupidly expensive for everything else, I'm just not paying it to the government is all.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;48982408]None of these things are income tax. These are things that are taken in specific circumstances. Higher prices on goods from business tax is a problem with the businesses, not the government. Sales tax only applies when you buy something (and is also ridiculously low in America). You only pay car and pet fees if you have a car or a pet. You don't even pay payroll taxes, that's something your employer pays.
Does no one who complains about taxes actually know how they work?[/QUOTE]
It's still taxes that are taken from me and given to the government. The way they take it doesn't make them fundamentally different.
[QUOTE=Xystus234]What the fuck are you doing to pay that much in taxes. I'm an independent contractor and I'm still paying a tenth of what I earn in taxes every year, along with minor things like sales tax, and a $60 tax for my car every month.
You're criticism of state facilities is somewhat valid, however, the DMV is ridiculous.
Is California that stupid? Cause over here in Virginia it's not like that, but it's still stupidly expensive for everything else, I'm just not paying it to the government is all.[/QUOTE]
Well, the California state tax + local taxes, alone, are right about 10% and the sales tax is ~8% where I live. Don't forget ~$0.50 tax on every gallon of gas and ~$2,200 a year in property taxes.
[QUOTE=Kentz;48982105]my employer pays ~35% tax on my income before i get it, and afterwards i pay 33% so its ~70% tax on my income
if you earn 25 000 swedish crowns, the state steals 17 500 of those
and yet there is a money problem lol
its stealing because its without my constent, simple as that. id rather pay 0% tax, earn 60 000 a month with no state funded bullshit than earning 20 000 with state funded bullshit
[editline]26th October 2015[/editline]
anybody who wants to get eaten by a snake is an idiot as far as am concerned[/QUOTE]
So you would just let the roads fall into disrepair? The utilities?
People who espouse you're view have no concept or understanding of what you actually get because of society.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48982520]So you would just let the roads fall into disrepair? The utilities?
People who espouse you're view have no concept or understanding of what you actually get because of society.[/QUOTE]
roads can only be built by a monopoly built on theft and violence ;(
private roads already exist and they work fine
just like private bridges
private health care
private schools
private security
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48982520]So you would just let the roads fall into disrepair? The utilities?
People who espouse you're view have no concept or understanding of what you actually get because of society.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention prisons, schools, Police departments, fire departments,grants for scientific research, public defenders, Orphanages, insane asylums, and a whole host of other things that the free market does a spectacularly poor job of providing.
[QUOTE=Kentz;48982571]roads can only be built by a monopoly built on theft and violence ;(
private roads already exist and they work fine
just like private bridges
private health care
private schools
private security[/QUOTE]
You're nuts if you think infrastructure is best handled by the private sector.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48982387]What do I get from those taxes? Police that show up late if you ever need them, a terrible school system, roads that are generally in bad shape, ridiculously slow services like the DMV (deal with all car related things like licenses), badly kept public parks, etc. etc. etc.[/QUOTE]
In my area I have well maintained public facilities, low crime, regularly repaired roads, etc, all done by the state. Just because something is badly executed somewhere doesn't mean you throw the entire concept out the window, though I can see why you would be disillusioned
[QUOTE=Kentz;48982571]roads can only be built by a monopoly built on theft and violence ;(
private roads already exist and they work fine
just like private bridges
private health care
private schools
private security[/QUOTE]
anarcho capitalism is literally the dumbest thing in the world and nobody should have to explain to you why it is a terrible idea
[QUOTE=Bobie;48982655]anarcho capitalism is literally the dumbest thing in the world and nobody should have to explain to you why it is a terrible idea[/QUOTE]
Why is it Bobie, please enlighten us Bobie, I'm sure you have a lot of intelligent things to add to this debate friend.
[QUOTE=Kentz;48980629]it is amoral because its statist and parasitic on the succesful of society
?[/QUOTE]
How is it parasitic? Is healthcare being affordable to everyone parasitic and "statist"? Is giving opportunities to those born into less fortunate circumstance "statist and parasitic"?
Hell I can argue the exact opposite in that the rich tend to leach off the poor on virtue of them getting rich on their labors while a good portion of them can't even afford to go to the hospital without massive debts.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48982681]Why is it Bobie, please enlighten us Bobie, I'm sure you have a lot of intelligent things to add to this debate friend.[/QUOTE]
because private defense agencies in an anarchist society are identical to mercenaries and guns for hire. if you want an example of the success of anarcho-capitalism, look to the DRC and CAR; you'll find plenty of similar concepts over there.
without a universal law enforcement body, you are doomed to a society without any singular objective form of protection, one in which defense can also mean aggression for the right price. over 3000 years of civilized progress would be undone.
what would stop an 'agency' paying abducted [URL="http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/social-issues/child-soldiers/6684.aspx"]child soldiers in amphetamines[/URL]?
[QUOTE=Bobie;48982702]because private defense agencies in an anarchist society are identical to mercenaries and guns for hire. if you want an example of the success of anarcho-capitalism, look to the DRC and CAR; you'll find plenty of similar concepts over there.
without a universal law enforcement body, you are doomed to a society without any singular objective form of protection, one in which defense can also mean aggression for the right price. over 3000 years of civilized progress would be undone.[/QUOTE]
I agree, good answer. Though libertarians typically aren't that extreme, as they recognise that without any state at all, the capitalism soon devolves into banditry. So its essentially a strawman using the most extreme positions of the most extreme 'anarcho-capitalists'.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48982730]I agree, good answer. Though libertarians typically aren't that extreme, as they recognise that without any state at all, the capitalism soon devolves into banditry. So its essentially a strawman using the most extreme positions of the most extreme 'anarcho-capitalists'.[/QUOTE]
anarchism is to eliminate the state in the truest sense of the word, so i would argue that there is no such thing as an anarcho-capitalist that believes in the state. especially not a state that takes payment (voluntary or otherwise) to fund a police force.
even if this were the case, what are the boundaries for private entities to not have their own military powers that rival the state's? you would then find yourself in a similar position to somalia's, where de-facto states consistently war with various warlords and pirates (both of whom could be considered private defense by some stretch of the imagination).
I find the entire claim of 'anarcho-capitalism' a strawman, to be honest. I have never met one in my entire life. The closest thing to that are extreme libertarians, who certainly do believe in some (very, very limited) purposes of the state. I don't quite understand why you're bringing up the DRC, CAR or Somalia, because those weren't purposefully created anarcho-capitalist republics - They simply became ungoverned through a weak government (which was weak unintentionally), leading the civil war, anarchy and chaos. But I get your point. It is pretty obvious (to me) that anarch-capitalism doesn't work.
[editline]26th October 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kentz;48982571]roads can only be built by a monopoly built on theft and violence ;(
private roads already exist and they work fine
just like private bridges
private health care
private schools
private security[/QUOTE]
They work fine in individual instances, but ultimately, making all of those private all of the time severely depresses economic growth.
Roads would not be built in areas which were not profitable enough to earn back the money in tolls, meaning certain areas essentially become wastelands. If private security overwhelms the state, then capitalism ceases to exist. Capitalism becomes banditry, and the only way of enforcing contracts is through murder and having bigger and more guns. People who can't afford private security would quickly find themselves robbed of all their possessions, leading to a collapse of private property rights, which underpin every capitalist society. Private schools in particular (and to a lesser extent, private healthcare) would also lead to depressed economic growth due to entire generations of children being shut out of decent schooling and again, losing one of the key principles of capitalism (for most capitalists) - the idea of equality of opportunity. People who are born poor, stay poor.
[editline]26th October 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;48982408]None of these things are income tax. These are things that are taken in specific circumstances. Higher prices on goods from business tax is a problem with the businesses, not the government. Sales tax only applies when you buy something (and is also ridiculously low in America). You only pay car and pet fees if you have a car or a pet. You don't even pay payroll taxes, that's something your employer pays.
Does no one who complains about taxes actually know how they work?[/QUOTE]
So the only tax that counts is income tax? So, if I jacked up VAT to 250%, would that be okay? I mean, after all, income tax isn't that high.
Taxes on goods such as fuel duty and VAT are every bit as much a part of taxation upon individuals as national insurance and income tax.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48982785]I find the entire claim of 'anarcho-capitalism' a strawman, to be honest. I have never met one in my entire life. The closest thing to that are extreme libertarians, who certainly do believe in some (very, very limited) purposes of the state. I don't quite understand why you're bringing up the DRC, CAR or Somalia, because those weren't purposefully created anarcho-capitalist republics - They simply became ungoverned through a weak government (which was weak unintentionally), leading the civil war, anarchy and chaos. But I get your point. It is pretty obvious (to me) that anarch-capitalism doesn't work.[/QUOTE]
I've had the misfortune of meeting several Anarcho Capitalists. They're all retarded, without a single exception.
[QUOTE=Melkor;48982826]I've had the misfortune of meeting several Anarcho Capitalists. They're all retarded, without a single exception.[/QUOTE]
I mean, I would say the same about communists and serious socialists (not the extremely soft social democracy of modern day Europe).
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48982785]I find the entire claim of 'anarcho-capitalism' a strawman, to be honest. I have never met one in my entire life. The closest thing to that are extreme libertarians, who certainly do believe in some (very, very limited) purposes of the state. I don't quite understand why you're bringing up the DRC, CAR or Somalia, because those weren't purposefully created anarcho-capitalist republics - They simply became ungoverned through a weak government (which was weak unintentionally), leading the civil war, anarchy and chaos. But I get your point. It is pretty obvious (to me) that anarch-capitalism doesn't work.
[editline]26th October 2015[/editline]
They work fine in individual instances, but ultimately, making all of those private all of the time severely depresses economic growth.
Roads would not be built in areas which were not profitable enough to earn back the money in tolls, meaning certain areas essentially become wastelands. If private security overwhelms the state, then capitalism ceases to exist. Capitalism becomes banditry, and the only way of enforcing contracts is through murder and having bigger and more guns. People who can't afford private security would quickly find themselves robbed of all their possessions, leading to a collapse of private property rights, which underpin every capitalist society. Private schools in particular (and to a lesser extent, private healthcare) would also lead to depressed economic growth due to entire generations of children being shut out of decent schooling and again, losing one of the key principles of capitalism (for most capitalists) - the idea of equality of opportunity. People who are born poor, stay poor.[/QUOTE]
i was just bringing it up as a response to the idea that private security can be an apt replacement for law enforcement. theres plenty of anarcho-capitalist literature out there (though almost always self published), like [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Liberty"]the market for liberty[/URL] which outlines reasons as to why private security can replace law enforcement. i can understand how places such as somalia can be considered not anarcho-capitalist, though they seem to me to be a pretty good example of what happens without a strong state presence that the population desires.
you can probably guess i'm not a fan of the austrian school but a libertarian society, albeit ruthless and brutal, would function infinitely better than any form of anarchism. beyond that, 'how much we should be taxed' is a moral and subjective issue and i dont feel like getting involved in this thread to discuss that lmao.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48982856]I mean, I would say the same about communists and serious socialists (not the extremely soft social democracy of modern day Europe).[/QUOTE]
I would too, which incidentally is why I'm not a socialist or a communist. Not sure what that has to do with Anarcho-Capitalists though.
[QUOTE=Melkor;48982826]I've had the misfortune of meeting several Anarcho Capitalists. They're all retarded, without a single exception.[/QUOTE]
And really, really racist, for some reason
[QUOTE=Melkor;48982874]I would too, which incidentally is why I'm not a socialist or a communist. Not sure what that has to do with Anarcho-Capitalists though.[/QUOTE]
It's wasn't so much directed at you as much as the general feeling of FP. There are a ton of people on here that love the idea of communism, as if it were a sad tragedy that the world can't quite reach it successfully, when in reality those who support communist are just as diluted as those who support anarchism.
[QUOTE=Bobie;48982773]anarchism is to eliminate the state in the truest sense of the word, so i would argue that there is no such thing as an anarcho-capitalist that believes in the state.[/QUOTE]
The goal of anarchism is to eliminate the state, capitalism, and any other types of power and authority that are harmful to the people subjected to them.
Anarcho-capitalism generally isn't recognized to even be a type of anarchism, and for the most part [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Molyneux"]only exists on the internet[/URL] nowadays.
[QUOTE=daschnek;48982884]The goal of anarchism is to eliminate the state, capitalism, and any other types of power and authority that are harmful to the people subjected to them.
Anarcho-capitalism generally isn't recognized to even be a type of anarchism, and for the most part [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Molyneux"]only exists on the internet[/URL] nowadays.[/QUOTE]
For the life of me I don't understand why you think that anarchism and socialism are similar. How would an anarcho-communist system even function (I know this is an ideology, but it has always seemed absurd to me)? How does a collective system, in which there are humans with their usual vices of greed and so on, function without people stealing or generally breaking down the collective system? In my opinion, all anarchy just tends towards banditry like in the previously mentioned Somalia, which is neither capitalist nor communist.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48982785]So the only tax that counts is income tax? So, if I jacked up VAT to 250%, would that be okay? I mean, after all, income tax isn't that high.
Taxes on goods such as fuel duty and VAT are every bit as much a part of taxation upon individuals as national insurance and income tax.[/QUOTE]
No, he said he pays 50% of his income on taxes. It's only income when you are receiving it, otherwise it's just money. He pays for his income tax on his income, other taxes are charged for services unrelated to income tax. I never said anything about it being okay to jack up tax.
You pay road tax because roads cost a lot of fucking money to maintain. You pay taxes on goods because regulatory agencies cost money and need to be ready to investigate any wrongdoing on the part of the companies selling whatever you're buying. Tax sucks most of the time, but the money has to come from somewhere and the only reasonable place to get it is from the people.
Having taxes for separate services/activities serves to prevent taxing people who don't use those services/activities. If you don't drive you aren't taxed for the maintenance of the road network, but as soon as you start to drive and use that network you can (and will) be taxed for it. Income tax is universal as a means of providing the funding for universal services, no one wants to pay a fire department tax or an ambulance tax when something bad happens to them.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;48982921]No, he said he pays 50% of his income on taxes. It's only income when you are receiving it, otherwise it's just money. He pays for his income tax on his income, other taxes are charged for services unrelated to income tax. I never said anything about it being okay to jack up tax.[/QUOTE]
Got it. So your entire point was semantics.
Income, in general terms, is the money you earn. The taxes I mentioned all come from that money.
As a side note, things like car registration fees don't all go to their respective area. Car fees specifically often also go into things like local public schools.
Also I'm not saying current tax rates are fair, I don't know American tax at all. I'm just saying the concept of tax is necessary for any functioning government and if it went away the people complaining about it would quickly be wishing for it to come back.
[QUOTE=daschnek;48982884]The goal of anarchism is to eliminate the state, capitalism, and any other types of power and authority that are harmful to the people subjected to them.
Anarcho-capitalism generally isn't recognized to even be a type of anarchism, and for the most part [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Molyneux"]only exists on the internet[/URL] nowadays.[/QUOTE]
i think you're confused. power and authority aren't harmful, people are. there's nothing that stops the peaceful, agricultural anarchist town from getting mowed down by the aggressive warlord with a lot of weapons, a lot of devoted followers and a lot of free time.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48982932]Got it. So your entire point was semantics.
Income, in general terms, is the money you earn. The taxes I mentioned all come from that money.[/QUOTE]
Not really semantics, more I misunderstood and thought you meant those were all part of your income tax.
[QUOTE=Kentz;48982571]roads can only be built by a monopoly built on theft and violence ;(
private roads already exist and they work fine
just like private bridges
private health care
private schools
private security[/QUOTE]
private roads didn't build out america's massive road network
private bridges don't really exist in america
private healthcare became a system of deny first, deny second, deny third and oh he's dead...
private schools create a massive achievement gap and increase the gap between the wealthy and the poor
private security has very often historically lead to many many massacres in US history, look up Pinkerton Security, they were essentially private militias that kept people as wage slaves, today companies like the former blackwater are possibly even scarier than pinkerton as they are more funded and more powerful than most 3rd world armies and operate almost exclusively without any oversight and outside the law
[editline]25th October 2015[/editline]
the greatest thing we did was durring the depression after all the private services had failed, we made them public and dragged our country into the 20th century, today we need to drag ourselves into the 21st century
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48982896]For the life of me I don't understand why you think that anarchism and socialism are similar. How would an anarcho-communist system even function (I know this is an ideology, but it has always seemed absurd to me)? How does a collective system, in which there are humans with their usual vices of greed and so on, function without people stealing or generally breaking down the collective system? In my opinion, all anarchy just tends towards banditry like in the previously mentioned Somalia, which is neither capitalist nor communist.[/QUOTE]
I don't just believe that they're similar, I believe that anarchism and socialism are a part of the same two-hundred-year-old tradition, and that the most logical implementation of a socialist society requires that the state be dissolved and that industries be democratized. This belief is pretty standard among anarchists of all flavors, with the exception of primitivists (think of people like the Unabomber, who believe that technology and society itself ought to be abolished) and the non-anarchist anarcho-capitalists.
I'm not a long-winded poster and I don't have the ability to give all the details of anarchist philosophy, but there are great resources [URL="http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/index.html"]here[/URL] and [URL="https://libcom.org/library/libcom-introductory-guide"]here[/URL] that go into far more detail than I can put into a single reasonable post.
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