• Stephen Fry hits back at accusations of Islamophobia
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[QUOTE=Megafan;42092600]A better question is, why did he create it? I've heard some Christians say that Lucifer created all the 'bad stuff' in the world, and for one reason or another God is powerless to have prevented it or remove it in the present day. Why create scarcity? Why create the elements that were necessary to make atomic bombs? [editline]5th September 2013[/editline] It's the illusion of both free will and the flow of time, but since God knows what has, is, and will be happening, it's meaningless.[/QUOTE] why create lucifer? [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] when you get down to it, the abrahamic god is 100% false. it's just another stupid myth like so many that humans have been making SINCE THE DAWN OF TIME. and like greek myth or egyptian myth or any other deity invented by people it'll be gone eventually. i don't get how you can even look at the fact that humans have been making this bullshit up nonstop and still have the audacity to think 'well no this time it IS right because it's my one'
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42092652]Because knowing every event that will ever happen is knowing that every event is predetermined. Regardless of him choosing something, he knows - there fore it is and always will be, hence predetermined.[/QUOTE] No it isn't, to determine implies to decide it to be so in advance, that is very different from simply knowing something in advance of it happening. I don't see how both could be the same and also I don't see how God himself can't interfere with free will when you claim that one of his very attributes is interfering with it. [QUOTE]But as it is commonly used today is it's literal meaning...?[/QUOTE] Well, perhaps it is, but the context I was using it in was not literal. Unless the phrase, "Take pride in your work." now is viewed as meaning, "Be arrogant and selfish in everything you do" instead of , "Do the best you can in everything you do". In any case, it was the latter meaning that I intended to imply. [QUOTE]Please read. I said "Caretaker". Not parent. Just read next time. That has NOTHING to do with parental love which was the discussion.[/QUOTE] My apologies, I should have noticed that. In any case, it is accounted in Christianity that there are those whom are innocent, meaning that they are unable to comprehend God, or right or wrong due to their lack of thinking capabilities. Very young children are among those whom are considered innocent and therefore it's to be expected that they mainly rely on their emotional reaction and innate instinct to bond with wherever comfort and nurturing comes from. Once they do develop a free will they are then able to make a choice in their older years, as yous stated. [QUOTE]No. Not really. It has more problems than I can shake a fist at to say the least. Christianity has absorbed and taken many parts of many cultures over many years. Are you saying older civilizations that lasted for thousands of years had no relevance because christianity is here now? Do you see that any faithful believer of a religion would see their religion as the true path to god? So why is your one better than those? It isn't monumentally old, it's not monumentally concise or consistent. The constant and tireless pursuit of interpretation of books written by men who understood the universe less than we do now as words of ultimate truth is not something I feel I can take seriously. If it's been under attack since the conception of the church, you take this as some sort of sign it's above all criticisms of it's so called "truths"? I'm sorry but that's not intelligent.[/QUOTE] Well, there are terms from other cultures and religions used to describe things in scripture, like Hades to describe hell, or Moloch to describe a demonic influence on children. These are all a stylistic attempt to convey an idea though and there's no implication that they are literally referring to the pagan underworld of Hades or the Ammonite god Moloch. As for the Catholic churches adoption of pagan celebration and symbols, such adoptions were made to keep a familiar environment for new converts and did not involve any real changes in Actual Christian doctrine or ritual. Anyway, what I'm talking about is different interpretations, additions and subtractions of and from scripture, not criticisms. The fact that all of these different interpretations, additions and subtractions have been refuted with scriptural support shows how much more accurate the view of historical Christianity is to the original inspired words as opposed to cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Mormons(to name so more modern examples). [QUOTE]Because you stated them from a faith based point of view, hence, unarguable. You glossed over them. Well when you repeat things that are true because faith determines them to be so, most people call that rhetoric whether that's the correct use of it or not. I don't see the value here[/QUOTE] What do you mean by "true because faith determines them to be so"? In the context of the discussion I have not made any claims for something to be true because I have faith that they are. [QUOTE]His respect by letting those that deny him turn into everlasting pain and suffering...? Why do you not see this as weird as I do.[/QUOTE] Being completely apart from God naturally involves pain and suffering, it is there choice to turn away from God, so they get as they chose. Less sophisticated Medieval interpretations of hell being a sort of torture chamber where demons dump people into vats of boiling blood is taking scriptural literalism to the extreme and completely ignores how the historical church fathers interpreted the bible on hell and how figurative language is used at time in scripture. All the pains described are most likely meant to show the pain of living a life apart from God's presence, the pain is simply paralleled to bodily sensations.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;42093857]No it isn't, to determine implies to decide it to be so in advance, that is very different from simply knowing something in advance of it happening. I don't see how both could be the same and also I don't see how God himself can't interfere with free will when you claim that one of his very attributes is interfering with it.[/QUOTE] when you're literally the only person not getting it, i just don't know how else to explain it to you. i've tried so many different ways and many other people get it, you just don't. I'm not sure what to say. [QUOTE] My apologies, I should have noticed that. In any case, it is accounted in Christianity that there are those whom are innocent, meaning that they are unable to comprehend God, or right or wrong due to their lack of thinking capabilities. Very young children are among those whom are considered innocent and therefore it's to be expected that they mainly rely on their emotional reaction and innate instinct to bond with wherever comfort and nurturing comes from. Once they do develop a free will they are then able to make a choice in their older years, as yous stated. [/QUOTE] but it doesn't matter. They grow up or they stay young, to god it's all the same, all time is at all times to him, you being 10, and you being 15 are the same for him and experienced simultaneously so he knows the choices you make before you made them and he defined the qualities you had up to that choice. [QUOTE]Well, there are terms from other cultures and religions used to describe things in scripture, like Hades to describe hell, or Moloch to describe a demonic influence on children. These are all a stylistic attempt to convey an idea though and there's no implication that they are literally referring to the pagan underworld of Hades or the Ammonite god Moloch.[/QUOTE] So the similarity of stories being passed down through history to you screams god given tales, not long used stories that have lasted ages? Noah, meet gilgamesh, jesus, meet mithra, etc. That doesn't make you question your god and your scripture? [QUOTE]As for the Catholic churches adoption of pagan celebration and symbols, such adoptions were made to keep a familiar environment for new converts and did not involve any real changes in Actual Christian doctrine or ritual. [/QUOTE] Christmas is literally the winter solstice and an act of sun worshipping. Doesn't that seemingly coincide with the birth of jesus? Seems important. [QUOTE]Anyway, what I'm talking about is different interpretations, additions and subtractions of and from scripture, not criticisms. The fact that all of these different interpretations, additions and subtractions have been refuted with scriptural support shows how much more accurate the view of historical Christianity is to the original inspired words as opposed to cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Mormons(to name so more modern examples).[/QUOTE] Whilst I'm not one to defend mormon history of religion, it is a mythology, just like the greater totality of christianity and every religion ever, so it's disrespectful to act above them whilst being in their boat, just a parallel boat. [QUOTE]What do you mean by "true because faith determines them to be so"? In the context of the discussion I have not made any claims for something to be true because I have faith that they are[/QUOTE]. Scripture is "true" because of faith. [QUOTE]Being completely apart from God naturally involves pain and suffering, it is there choice to turn away from God, so they get as they chose. Less sophisticated Medieval interpretations of hell being a sort of torture chamber where demons dump people into vats of boiling blood is taking scriptural literalism to the extreme and completely ignores how the historical church fathers interpreted the bible on hell and how figurative language is used at time in scripture. All the pains described are most likely meant to show the pain of living a life apart from God's presence, the pain is simply paralleled to bodily sensations.[/QUOTE] Yes I know dantes inferno is the insperation for most interpretations of hell, and yes, according to original catholic doctrine(you know, the original church) hell is just a place absent of god, but as you say, that is still suffering and pain. Now personally, I don't think you will ever see the idea of free will as the rest of us have so I'm not sure this discussion can go on any further because that will forever be a point of contention.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42092761]why create lucifer? [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] when you get down to it, the abrahamic god is 100% false. it's just another stupid myth like so many that humans have been making SINCE THE DAWN OF TIME. and like greek myth or egyptian myth or any other deity invented by people it'll be gone eventually. i don't get how you can even look at the fact that humans have been making this bullshit up nonstop and still have the audacity to think 'well no this time it IS right because it's my one'[/QUOTE] to be fair, Lucifer wasn't just created to be evil. he was an angel who had a huge falling out with the rest and got in big trouble and basically banished, so he got super jealous and became the first real -evil-
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;42094788]to be fair, Lucifer wasn't just created to be evil. he was an angel who had a huge falling out with the rest and got in big trouble and basically banished, so he got super jealous and became the first real -evil-[/QUOTE] which is weird that god can create a burrito too hot for him to hold i mean an evil too great for him to squash
Also, isn't the main reason behind "why doesn't god get rid of disease and bad things" because the idea of Heaven is that you need to prove that you are pure of soul to be able to go there? tbh the whole lucifer worked out in his favour cause it ends up creating a fantastic way to weed out who truly does not deserve everlasting paradise. [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42094798]which is weird that god can create a burrito too hot for him to hold i mean an evil too great for him to squash[/QUOTE] I'm gonna be the one to say now that I'm agnostic, so while we're talking I don't want you all to view me as some bible thumper, but i dont want you all to view me as some prick who says "god's not real you're wrong im right nah nah nah nah boo boo" [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] but yeah i think that was a the big thing about that first group of angels. He was probably testing to see exactly how strong he could make them, and then ended up making one that could parallel even him, thus creating lucifer, and then lucifer was like "yo god i dont agree with this and this" and all the angels and god are like "haha yeah whatever dude you're outta here" and lucifers like "i can be my own cool god yo see" [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] also on the whole "true because faith says so", that's completely true. Why does money have value, for example? Because a vast majority believes it. If they didn't, money would be worthless and we'd still be bartering.
well doesn't omnipotence kind of seem like an impossible idea? You're all powerful so you can create something you can't destroy, thus proving you're not omnipotent so you never were in the first place? Or did god break that it? and yeah faith in monetary systems is a common trait of monetary systems. It's what makes them work. I don't see this as the same of religious and areligious faiths/beliefs.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;42094788]to be fair, Lucifer wasn't just created to be evil. he was an angel who had a huge falling out with the rest and got in big trouble and basically banished, so he got super jealous and became the first real -evil-[/QUOTE] except god knows everything that's going to happen ever, so he created lucifer knowing full well that lucifer was going to turn evil (and before someone says he didn't stop him because of free will, only humans fall under that! not angels!)
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42094893]well doesn't omnipotence kind of seem like an impossible idea? You're all powerful so you can create something you can't destroy, thus proving you're not omnipotent so you never were in the first place? Or did god break that it? and yeah faith in monetary systems is a common trait of monetary systems. It's what makes them work. I don't see this as the same of religious and areligious faiths/beliefs.[/QUOTE] but i honestly dont believe the idea of god is one of "yeah shit goes wrong i smite thee top lels" like there are all sorts of cases in the bible where it's like "you fucked up now you get punished", like adam and eve and shit like that why would he destroy lucifer when he's a fantastic example and tool [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Lachz0r;42094915]except god knows everything that's going to happen ever, so he created lucifer knowing full well that lucifer was going to turn evil (and before someone says he didn't stop him because of free will, only humans fall under that! not angels!)[/QUOTE] but the fact that lucifer fell means that angels -do- have free will [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] it was very much a system of respect of "ok god you're the big guy, i trust your decisions and I'll follow them" up until Lucifer and his crew arrived, it never says that angels are constrained to the will of god, i dont know why you'd think that
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;42094939]but i honestly dont believe the idea of god is one of "yeah shit goes wrong i smite thee top lels" like there are all sorts of cases in the bible where it's like "you fucked up now you get punished", like adam and eve and shit like that why would he destroy lucifer when he's a fantastic example and tool [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] but the fact that lucifer fell means that angels -do- have free will [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] it was very much a system of respect of "ok god you're the big guy, i trust your decisions and I'll follow them" up until Lucifer and his crew arrived, it never says that angels are constrained to the will of god, i dont know why you'd think that[/QUOTE] do you not see the obvious contradiction with god creating him, knowing he'd do things god doesn't want him to do? also, sodom and gamorrah beg to differ with you on gods graciousness.
do unicorns have free will i wonder? [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] do elves go to hell?
God was all knowing in the sense that he had a plan laid out that he was hoping all would follow, but that obviously went astray when a third of heaven rebelled against him, and then the whole adam and eve ordeal. i mean sure people may preach god knows the future to come, but that's just a blatant lie. i believe that the idea of him being 'all knowing' would lend itself better to being called 'all seeing'. God's biggest mistake when creating creatures to follow his plans was creating everything with free will, to be fair
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;42094973]God was all knowing in the sense that he had a plan laid out that he was hoping all would follow, but that obviously went astray when a third of heaven rebelled against him, and then the whole adam and eve ordeal. i mean sure people may preach god knows the future to come, but that's just a blatant lie. i believe that the idea of him being 'all knowing' would lend itself better to being called 'all seeing'. God's biggest mistake when creating creatures to follow his plans was creating everything with free will, to be fair[/QUOTE] then he isn't all knowing nor all powerful then he isn't god
why does god need to be all knowing or all powerful, like where does the misconception come from where people seem to think that god needs to be able to control all. He created the angels with free will to be able to be with him without being some robotic slaves, and then the whole rebellion thing happened and he was like "oh shit better not do that again" Free will basically comes from the fact that Eve ate the forbidden fruit, because the serpent (the devil) said "yeah this is the good shit right here". Man, with only the notion of "oh okay, all this shit that's been talking to me so far has been good and just, so ill probably be fine!" even after gods whole warning of "yeah you probably want to avoid the fruits on that tree". After that whole thing, god was like "aw SHIT they probably can't even refuse shit" so he ended up granting man the ability to decide for themselves, throwing his plans all out of whack but basically saying "okay it's not my place to indirectly force you to make bad decisions because you cant say no"
god's plan was evil. christianity is all about suffering to prove your worth. adam and eve were punished because they ate from the tree of KNOWLEDGE. [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=No Party Hats;42095014]why does god need to be all knowing or all powerful, like where does the misconception come from where people seem to think that god needs to be able to control all. He created the angels with free will to be able to be with him without being some robotic slaves, and then the whole rebellion thing happened and he was like "oh shit better not do that again" Free will basically comes from the fact that Eve ate the forbidden fruit, because the serpent (the devil) said "yeah this is the good shit right here". Man, with only the notion of "oh okay, all this shit that's been talking to me so far has been good and just, so ill probably be fine!" even after gods whole warning of "yeah you probably want to avoid the fruits on that tree". After that whole thing, god was like "aw SHIT they probably can't even refuse shit" so he ended up granting man the ability to decide for themselves, throwing his plans all out of whack but basically saying "okay it's not my place to indirectly force you to make bad decisions because you cant say no"[/QUOTE] because that's the whole basis of the abrahamic religions? that their god's are all powerful?
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Abrahamic_religions[/url] Because that's what god is known as so unless you know more than theologians and philosophers and biblical scholars then good for you but that's not true because you say so.
i really enjoy the bible not because i distinctly believe all or any of it, but because it's a really great tale of some super powerful creator having to make the choice of "do i keep these beings i created as essentially sheep who cant make decisions for themselves, and have them get tricked into harming themselves, or should I grant them free will, allowing for a repeat of what happened before (referring to the whole lucifer and a third of heaven rebelling) but also have the possibility of them being a good and fine people who wont be total fucks like Big L-dog". This also brought the risk of "okay they now get to make their own fates, but that's out of my control and plans and i can't infringe on their free will", up until Jesus comes along cause god was like "woah what if i send like an envoy to tell all those dudes that im still around and a big deal". [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42095030][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Abrahamic_religions[/url] Because that's what god is known as so unless you know more than theologians and philosophers and biblical scholars then good for you but that's not true because you say so.[/QUOTE] but he's omnipotent in the fact that he's -permitting- these things to happen
yes the bible is interesting from a mythical standpoint just like most other myths are [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] man arguing with christians is the stupidest thing. sometimes i hope god actually IS real so every christian goes to hell for working on a sunday or eating shellfish or mixing fabrics
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42095054]yes the bible is interesting from a mythical standpoint just like most other myths are [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] man arguing with christians is the stupidest thing. sometimes i hope god actually IS real so every christian goes to hell for working on a sunday or eating shellfish or mixing fabrics[/QUOTE] for not stoning disobedient children or another one of the laundry list of ridiculous things the books contain. [editline]5th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=No Party Hats;42095043]i really enjoy the bible not because i distinctly believe all or any of it, but because it's a really great tale of some super powerful creator having to make the choice of "do i keep these beings i created as essentially sheep who cant make decisions for themselves, and have them get tricked into harming themselves, or should I grant them free will, allowing for a repeat of what happened before (referring to the whole lucifer and a third of heaven rebelling) but also have the possibility of them being a good and fine people who wont be total fucks like Big L-dog". This also brought the risk of "okay they now get to make their own fates, but that's out of my control and plans and i can't infringe on their free will", up until Jesus comes along cause god was like "woah what if i send like an envoy to tell all those dudes that im still around and a big deal". [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] but he's omnipotent in the fact that he's -permitting- these things to happen[/QUOTE] so what and no, not really how that idea works.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42095054]yes the bible is interesting from a mythical standpoint just like most other myths are[/QUOTE] Well of course, and everything pertaining to deities will always be considered mythical purely because not everyone believes them and there's nothing to prove them real (mind you there's nothing to prove them wrong either, but that's not really the point at all) I mean, we call Greek mythology what they are, myths, but there were and are people who still believe in them. In the end, Religion is just a way for societies to unify under a single banner and have a common ideal set or belief system. As humans, we're always looking for ways to integrate ourselves with each other, and Religion is arguably the largest and simplest way to do that. I think a large issue people have with religion is the archaic rules like "kill the jews" or shit like that (I have no idea if any religion says that, but you get my jist). I feel like that's less of a product of the religion, and more of a product of the time period, which people misconstrued to be a core tenant of the religion. That's why you get a bunch of people now who are like "homos are bad cause god said so", that was a problem with the fact that that was HUGELY taboo back then, and people cant cope with the fact that with the times changing, societal rules like that change too. It's like the setting of a book, if you think about it [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42095076]for not stoning disobedient children or another one of the laundry list of ridiculous things the books contain. [editline]5th September 2013[/editline] so what and no, not really how that idea works.[/QUOTE] From the page on Omnipotence, "Every action performed in the world is 'actually' being performed by the deity, either due to omni-immanence, or because all actions must be 'supported' or 'permitted' by the deity." [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Lachz0r;42095054]yes the bible is interesting from a mythical standpoint just like most other myths are [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] man arguing with christians is the stupidest thing. sometimes i hope god actually IS real so every christian goes to hell for working on a sunday or eating shellfish or mixing fabrics[/QUOTE] also i already pointed out im not christian :(
religion is a way for idiots to understand things without actually TRYING to understand things. it's a intellectual and philosophical cop-out
No, idiots who practice religion use it as such. There are a lot of really great religious people in the world who follow the core beliefs and frankly are better off for it. The fact that they're smart enough to know what applies to the modern world and what doesn't shows a lot more in them than dropping it and claiming that all religion is for idiots.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;42095091] From the page on Omnipotence, "Every action performed in the world is 'actually' being performed by the deity, either due to omni-immanence, or because all actions must be 'supported' or 'permitted' by the deity." [/QUOTE] so there is no free will
There is free will if god provided no intervention at all, to clarify.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;42095128]There is free will if god provided no intervention at all, to clarify.[/QUOTE] 1) no one but god would know if they had free will or not 2) god has and does interfere in a biblical view of the world
Well that's one of the big things about Omnipotence, and one we really could never wrap our heads around. Perhaps we have all the free will, where God literally said "okay, you have total free will, meaning i permit any act you do", or perhaps we're actually being guided the whole time, who knows man, and that's the crazy thing not just about religion, but about omnipotence and that whole jazz. we're just completely clueless, your guess is as good as mine, i'm just rolling off of patterns and basic sense. I guess that's one of the big reasons I remain agnostic, because we humanly have no fucking way of knowing one way or the other, i could be right and you wrong, you could be right and i'm wrong, we both could be right, or maybe neither of us are right. in the end there's no use really arguing over anything involving religion, cause we have no clue. that's why im always saying how everyone should just respect eachothers beliefs, cause you've got no clue if you're right or wrong by claiming deities dont exist [editline]6th September 2013[/editline] also for point #2, i haven't read the bible in a while but i can't really recall a situation where its stated that he directly controlled one persons actions. Sure he influenced them, but the choice was still there in most scenarios
[quote]23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.[/quote] idk man, that seems like some controlled decimation to me
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42095114]religion is a way for idiots to understand things without actually TRYING to understand things. it's a intellectual and philosophical cop-out[/QUOTE] well aren't you just the enlightened one
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42095114]religion is a way for idiots to understand things without actually TRYING to understand things. it's a intellectual and philosophical cop-out[/QUOTE] I'm sorry but this is an incredibly stupid and ignorant thing to say
Well i cant remember where i heard it, but the best explaination for why humans are capable of commiting genocide over the notion that there is a golden squirrel in the magic tree of life, might be due to the following situation; Imagine a mother loosing her child to pure happenstance, the child was out enjoying the early days of its life when suddenly it falls in the river and dies. The mother has a complex brain, capable of incredible feats of imagination, and thus she creates an explaination for her child's death, Something to convince her that her childs life isnt over, but that he/she simply passed over to the next phase of the journey. And she begins to spread this idea, amidst the struggle of a hunter/gatherer society, this notion became very appealing, it made them more closely knit together as a group, gave them a cultural identity, and gave them the comfort of thinking that whatever hardships you had to endure in this world, there would be a reward waiting for you in the next. So essentially this new religion spreads and molds, until we have a long and illustrious creation story.
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