• Stephen Fry hits back at accusations of Islamophobia
    344 replies, posted
[QUOTE=supersnail11;42048895]i'm not watching the lecture, end of story you could instead summarize what you mean and that'd work so much better[/QUOTE] well you've been debating for half the length of a video so it's not like you'd really lose that much time
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;42048888]So you're saying that proof is subjective?[/QUOTE] of course it is some people feel that second hand smoke has been proven to be a huge health risk, and i disagree - who's right, i don't know, but we have different information so we come to different conclusions
[QUOTE=supersnail11;42048895]i'm not watching the lecture, end of story you could instead summarize what you mean and that'd work so much better[/QUOTE] If you're not going to watch the lecture please don't let this continue on, I can't summarize and you don't want to watch the lecture, pointless.
[QUOTE=supersnail11;42048914]of course it is some people feel that second hand smoke has been proven to be a huge health risk, and i disagree - who's right, i don't know, but we have different information so we come to different conclusions[/QUOTE] But the universe and reality don't care what either of you think. It's going to be one way or the other and trying to deceive the world into the idea that any idea is of validity is wrong and ignorant.
[QUOTE=supersnail11;42048914]of course it is some people feel that second hand smoke has been proven to be a huge health risk, and i disagree - who's right, i don't know, but we have different information so we come to different conclusions[/QUOTE] That is just silly, and not how science works. Personal beliefs have no place in science.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42048860]what a divorced and separate issue from religi- oh wait it's not[/QUOTE] You don't need to prove God does not exist to prove barbaric traditions shouldn't.
[QUOTE=supersnail11;42048914]of course it is some people feel that second hand smoke has been proven to be a huge health risk, and i disagree - who's right, i don't know, but we have different information so we come to different conclusions[/QUOTE] what
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42048919]But the universe and reality don't care what either of you think. It's going to be one way or the other and trying to deceive the world into the idea that any idea is of validity is wrong and ignorant.[/QUOTE] i'm not saying that there can never be one right answer, but that two people can believe that they have proof of something and that isn't always true the proof itself isn't subjective, but the idea that something has been proven to you is
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;42048926]You don't need to prove God does not exist to prove barbaric traditions shouldn't.[/QUOTE] well that was a thousand year debate just gone in a heartbeat what a simple solution [editline]1st September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=supersnail11;42048932]i'm not saying that there can never be one right answer, but that two people can believe that they have proof of something and that isn't always true the proof itself isn't subjective, but the idea that something has been proven to you is[/QUOTE] this is the definition of being ignorant of something then yes you can't always know, but somethings you can be relatively sure of based on evidence/proof. and yes you could get wrong information. the idea in science is to not do that by testing it back and forth.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42048928]what[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Shreddinger;42048921]That is just silly, and not how science works. Personal beliefs have no place in science.[/QUOTE] let's say i'm someone with no critical thinking and i'm watching the history channel and see a "documentary" about the president being an alien proof of this doesn't exist, but since i'm watching a documentary about aliens on the history channel and have no critical thinking, i feel it has been proven to me. this isn't true, and everything i just saw was false, but i thought it was real and i thought it was proven to me
I think the problem is that a lot of people in this thread are viewing the concept of god from the perspective of Christianity, or Judaism. The concept of god is just a being that created the universe, how that occurs, or what that means is completely up to interpretation by anyone.
[QUOTE=supersnail11;42048954]let's say i'm someone with no critical thinking and i'm watching the history channel and see a "documentary" about the president being an alien proof of this doesn't exist, but since i'm watching a documentary about aliens on the history channel and have no critical thinking, i feel it has been proven to me. this isn't true, and everything i just saw was false, but i thought it was real and i thought it was proven to me[/QUOTE] the definition of ignorance.
[QUOTE=supersnail11;42048883]no? my point was that those who are religious are religious because they feel that god is proven to be real, whether that is true or not from someone else's perspective[/QUOTE] and those who are delusional believe that they have proof that everyone around them is plotting against them.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;42048963]and those who are delusional believe that they have proof that everyone around them is plotting against them.[/QUOTE] are you trying to say that everyone who believes in a god is delusional?
[QUOTE=plunger435;42048958]I think the problem is that a lot of people in this thread are viewing the concept of god from the perspective of Christianity, or Judaism. The concept of god is just a being that created the universe, how that occurs, or what that means is completely up to interpretation by anyone.[/QUOTE] No. There are a lot of gods through out human history. But you can't say "viewing it from those perspectives is wrong" because that's kind of exactly what we're talking about. What you're doing is just redefining god from your view and saying that's the proper view to debate.
[QUOTE=plunger435;42048958]I think the problem is that a lot of people in this thread are viewing the concept of god from the perspective of Christianity, or Judaism. The concept of god is just a being that created the universe, how that occurs, or what that means is completely up to interpretation by anyone.[/QUOTE] The point is that God is unnecessary from a scientific perspective and you can't have it both ways.
[QUOTE=supersnail11;42048970]are you trying to say that everyone who believes in a god is delusional?[/QUOTE] if they believe they have evidence of god himself then probably, yes.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;42048855]It's amazing how you guys have been going at it for three pages over something utterly irrelevant to the main topic.[/QUOTE] I was expecting an argument about Islam and whether or not criticizing it was racist for some reason. The belief in god is harmless. Fundamentalists that throw acid in girls faces for wanting to go to school and commit acts of terror are harmful but they're more of the product of culture and politics.
[QUOTE=supersnail11;42048954]let's say i'm someone with no critical thinking and i'm watching the history channel and see a "documentary" about the president being an alien proof of this doesn't exist, but since i'm watching a documentary about aliens on the history channel and have no critical thinking, i feel it has been proven to me. this isn't true, and everything i just saw was false, but i thought it was real and i thought it was proven to me[/QUOTE] okay well this is what is wrong with organized religion and 'documentaries' like that, they teach ignorant bullshit to people that don't know any better
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42048978]I was expecting an argument about Islam and whether or not criticizing it was racist for some reason. The belief in god is harmless. Fundamentalists that throw acid in girls faces for wanting to go to school and commit acts of terror are harmful but they're more of the product of culture and politics.[/QUOTE] you think the devout, and total belief in a being of infinite power having direct control of your life is "harmless" no.
[QUOTE=supersnail11;42048970]are you trying to say that everyone who believes in a god is delusional?[/QUOTE] that's what you were inferring and i'm pointing that out.
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;42048973]The point is that God is unnecessary from a scientific perspective and you can't have it both ways.[/QUOTE] You could easily have it both ways, someone might simply believe god was the catalyst for the Big Bang, or something along that line and assume that's the only action taken by said god. There are also numerous research topics that wouldn't even touch on the topic of god, or religion.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42048978]I was expecting an argument about Islam and whether or not criticizing it was racist for some reason. The belief in god is harmless. Fundamentalists that throw acid in girls faces for wanting to go to school and commit acts of terror are harmful but they're more of the product of culture and politics.[/QUOTE] Just because a belief is harmless doesn't make it true or rational. Also, People who believe in something but not fundamentally are still giving a free pass to the fundamentalists.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42048976]if they believe they have evidence of god himself then probably, yes.[/QUOTE] i think they'd be even more delusional if they believed in a god despite a lack of proof, perceived or real
[QUOTE=plunger435;42048992]You could easily have it both ways, someone might simply believe god was the catalyst for the Big Bang, or something along that line and assume that's the only action taken by said god. There are also numerous research topics that wouldn't even touch on the topic of god, or religion.[/QUOTE] You can't just assume that something did something, it's completely unscientific, and that's is exactly why you can't have it both ways. God is unscientific, right now at least. You can hold a belief in God while being a scientist but you can't claim it to be rational or true.
personally i think we are all delusional to some extent or another. some of the brightest people i know believe 9/11 was an inside job, for example. i tend to not really hold it against the religious if what they believe is technically a delusion. i just wanna make it clear that you are basically calling the religious delusional without actually using the term.
[QUOTE=supersnail11;42048996]i think they'd be even more delusional if they believed in a god despite a lack of proof, perceived or real[/QUOTE] The entire point of religion is faith, which is belief even in absence of proof. So of course not all religious people believe there is proof.
[QUOTE=supersnail11;42048996]i think they'd be even more delusional if they believed in a god despite a lack of proof, perceived or real[/QUOTE] Let's say you have somebody, Dale here for instance, Dale believe he heard Gods voice talking to him. He fervently believes in god. He is most definitely delusional. This doesn't change when you change what "evidence" he's using. Assuming that there is a god because you can't see a reason not to have one in the universe is, well debateable but not nearly as ignorant as believing evidence that can actively be proven false.
[QUOTE=Araknid;42048836]iirc women in Islam are actually held in very high regards. Muhammads wife was a very important scholar, and Islam promoted equal rights for both women and men, while western countries didn't allow such things. The whole abuse women thing comes more from culture + assholes This is what my sister tells me, and she's a Muslim so I trust what she says.[/QUOTE] [quote=Quran] And command the Muslim women to keep their gaze low and to protect their chastity, and not to reveal their adornment except what is apparent, and to keep the cover wrapped over their bosoms; and not to reveal their adornment except to their own husbands or fathers or husbands’ fathers, or their sons or their husbands’ sons, or their brothers or their brothers’ sons or sisters’ sons, or women of their religion, or the bondwomen they possess, or male servants provided they do not have manliness, or such children who do not know of women’s nakedness, and not to stamp their feet on the ground in order that their hidden adornment be known; and O Muslims, all of you turn in repentance together towards Allah, in the hope of attaining success.[/quote] [quote=Quran]Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!"[/quote] Yeah.... About that.
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;42049003]You can't just assume that something did something, it's completely unscientific, and that's is exactly why you can't have it both ways. God is unscientific, right now at least. You can hold a belief in God while being a scientist but you can't claim it to be rational or true.[/QUOTE] That didn't stop important scientists from making discoveries, Heisenberg was a Lutheran for instance, and his work has contributed greatly to theoretical physics.
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