• Canadian Court strikes down "White, straight, single male" scholarship and "White, straight, single
    114 replies, posted
[QUOTE=_Axel;49798292]I'm pretty sure Marxist thinking would have resulted in sorting people based on their class, which would be much more relevant to scholarships.[/QUOTE] I think you've misunderstood whatever it is you read about marxism. Marx speculated that it is capitalism which leads to the existence of classes whos interests are intrinsically set against one another. IMO "marxist thinking" would follow "from each according to his ability, from each according to his need" ie if you need something to go to uni, you will get it (provided by marx's and others idealised post scarcity utopia).
I've heard the argument that Uni's need some level of diversity to challenge all the facets of students' thinking so they can change their worldviews to consider all sides. It sounds like a great idea in theory, in fact I fully support that line of thinking. However, as Hanso mentioned, diversity shouldn't come at the cost of unfair, impartial selection. But hey, the benefactors of these types of scholarships are private and thus they can do whatever they want with their money. Double standard? Yes.
Heres a novel idea. Free education.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49798401]Heres a novel idea. Free education.[/QUOTE] I'd rather not have my taxes to skyrocket thank you. Cheaper education yes, but not free.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49798401]Heres a novel idea. Free education.[/QUOTE] It would be very interesting to see what would happen affirmative action wise if something like Bernie's college plan were to be implemented.
[QUOTE=LoneWolf_Recon;49798399]I've heard the argument that Uni's need some level of diversity to challenge all the facets of students' thinking so they can change their worldviews to consider all sides.[/QUOTE] I don't get it, why would something as superficial as skin color lead to such great differences in worldviews? Isn't the big idea behind anti-racism that people are persons first and foremost and aren't defined by their physical traits?
[QUOTE=Tuskin;49798417]I'd rather not have my taxes to skyrocket thank you. Cheaper education yes, but not free.[/QUOTE] Those taxes are paying for your kids to be educated and everybody is better off in a more educated society.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49798401]Heres a novel idea. Free education.[/QUOTE] There has to be some limitations of this as well as incentives for students so they don't slack of (Some sort of GPA or ACT threshold). As much as I want this as much as the next guy, the financials are possible when curtailed. Full ride, free 4 year college support for a new student as long as they keep above a certain threshold. In fact there's a number of already existing govt sponsered scholarships that have this requirement and stipulation, albeit they only pay for a quarter or a third of the full cost of a semester. (Atleast in Tennessee we have the [URL="https://www.tn.gov/collegepays/article/tennessee-hope-scholarship"]HOPE scholarship[/URL] requiring a minimum GPA of 3.0 for a max of four years of support.) Some of the infrastructure for 'free' education in the US exists in some form or another and varies from state to state, it just needs to be expanded. [editline]23rd February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=_Axel;49798422]I don't get it, why would something as superficial as skin color lead to such great differences in worldviews? Isn't the big idea behind anti-racism that people are persons first and foremost and aren't defined by their physical traits?[/QUOTE] That's where I find the defending argument for diversity fall through, it sets a double standard of diversity vs racism. So in the end, it just seems like misguided attempts by "psuedo-progressive retards" or the Uni to win PC points.
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;49798145]Why can't people just target their scholarships at poor people rather than minority groups?[/QUOTE] Alot of scholarships already do this, as often you have to submit some sort of federal report of your income/current tax/financial situation so that the scholarships can be based on need.
[QUOTE=LoneWolf_Recon;49798464] That's where I find the defending argument for diversity fall through, it sets a double standard of diversity vs racism. So in the end, it just seems like misguided attempts by "psuedo-progressive retards" or the Uni to win PC points.[/QUOTE] If you have a certain group under-represented in a given field you run the risk of some of the people in that group not reaching their potential and consequently the country not getting the best out of its education system. Quotas are a clumsy and irritating solution but its better than nothing. Eg you have 9 people. 6 white, 3 black 33% of each group is "smart" 33% of each group is "average" 33% of each group is "dumb" if you have 6 people in college you could have 5 white and 1 black (3 smart, 2 average, 1 dumb) (misrepresented condition since there are less than 33% black people so you include dumb people from other groups) or 4 white and 2 black (3 smart, 3 average) (fair representation of both groups) Its an oversimplified model with generalisations and assumptions but hopefully it will help explain that first point. Similar thing with employment and women, a study found women to be better coders, its bs, they're modelled on the same distribution; its just the bad/mediocre female coders are less likely to stay in the job, the only ones who stick around are the really good ones, more equal representation would mean the bad male coders are replaced with mediocre female ones. This demonstrates a point that sometimes a group doesn't want to do something, Freakonomics proposes an explaination to why some members of the african american community might be reluctant to go to uni. Coming from a different angle. Less education -> more poverty -> more crime. And its self fulfilling. Poor, uneducated people live in poor, uneducated areas which get less funding for schools and are less likely to send people to uni/college. Targetting the people who live in those areas should help break up those areas and help break the deadlock. Again its a clumsy irritating solution but something needs to be done. To take the final point about self fulfilling one step further. Using african americans as an example. They start off poor and uneducated (post slavery they started with nothing), stay poor and uneducated, poor and uneducated tend to live in crime areas/get into crime. Soon you have stereotypes (ones which already existed from the slavery era) strengthening saying that blacks are stupid (because they are generally less educated) or blacks are more likely to do crime (because they live in areas which have a high crime rate). Which in turn self strengthen, blacks are unfairly targetted for stop and search and are given longer sentences than whites for the same crime, people with black names are less likely to be accepted for job or college applications despite having the exact same qualifications and experience. Thats a cycle of systematic racism which needs to be broken.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49798676]If you have a certain group under-represented in a given field you run the risk of some of the people in that group not reaching their potential and consequently the country not getting the best out of its education system. Quotas are a clumsy and irritating solution but its better than nothing. Eg you have 9 people. 6 white, 3 black 33% of each group is "smart" 33% of each group is "average" 33% of each group is "dumb" if you have 6 people in college you could have 5 white and 1 black (3 smart, 2 average, 1 dumb) (misrepresented condition since there are less than 33% black people so you include dumb people from other groups) or 4 white and 2 black (3 smart, 3 average) (fair representation of both groups) Its an oversimplified model with generalisations and assumptions but hopefully it will help explain that first point. Similar thing with employment and women, a study found women to be better coders, its bs, they're modelled on the same distribution; its just the bad/mediocre female coders are less likely to stay in the job, the only ones who stick around are the really good ones, more equal representation would mean the bad male coders are replaced with mediocre female ones. This demonstrates a point that sometimes a group doesn't want to do something, Freakonomics proposes an explaination to why some members of the african american community might be reluctant to go to uni. Coming from a different angle. Less education -> more poverty -> more crime. And its self fulfilling. Poor, uneducated people live in poor, uneducated areas which get less funding for schools and are less likely to send people to uni/college. Targetting the people who live in those areas should help break up those areas and help break the deadlock. Again its a clumsy irritating solution but something needs to be done.[/QUOTE] I... What? What does enforcing quotas based on criteria that are completely irrelevant to the people's skills do to help increase the amount of qualified persons that come out of those fields? In the whole broken reasoning you've just done, you could replace black/white with varying feet length or dick girth and it wouldn't change a thing. The fact of the matter is, race quotas actually [I]decrease[/I] the average skill level. What do you think happens when you prioritize people based on their skin color and refuse others who actually are more skilled than the former?
[QUOTE=_Axel;49798719]I... What? What does enforcing quotas based on criteria that are completely irrelevant to the people's skills do to help increase the amount of qualified persons that come out of those fields? In the whole broken reasoning you've just done, you could replace black/white with varying feet length or dick girth and it wouldn't change a thing. The fact of the matter is, race quotas actually [I]decrease[/I] the average skill level. What do you think happens when you prioritize people based on their skin color and refuse others who actually are more skilled than the former?[/QUOTE] I was hoping the demonstration with the numbers would help illustrate why quotas can help increase average skill level. (ie if 10% of pop is black then the target quota should be 10% as above assuming both groups have equallty distributed skill then fairer representation of the group should increase average skill). This is predicated on the assumption that all people are generally of the same skill modelled using the same distribution. Which part was I wrong about?
[QUOTE=Svinnik;49798041]pretty big assumptions right there[/QUOTE] Well, explicitly stating that the candidates need to be white and straight (and also not a feminist which apparently only women can be?) I would say give some indication.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49798739]Which part was I wrong about?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]This is predicated on the assumption that all people are generally of the same skill modelled using the same distribution.[/QUOTE] I'd say this one, given that enforcing quotas requires to refuse people that are more skilled in order to take in more minorities. You also assume that the racial distribution in the whole population is the same as the racial distribution among the applicants, which is false. If all your assumptions were true there would be no need for quotas either, because the racial distribution in the student body would be identical to the racial distribution of the general population. So in your example, racial quotas only work because they do nothing, which is pretty telling of how efficient that policy actually is. In the end, the system that exploits its students potential the most is the one that selects its students based on their skills. I thought that was obvious, but apparently not.
[QUOTE=_Axel;49798110]What are the intents behind creating a scholarship for people of a specific race if not racism? Like, you're blatantly saying "you can only get this if you're black/hispanic/asian/white/whatever", what's the pretext behind it?[/QUOTE] It's because the vast majority of scholarships are given to white students. [QUOTE]Among undergraduate students enrolled full-time/full-year in Bachelor’s degree programs at four-year colleges and universities, minority students represent about a third of applicants but slightly more than a quarter of private scholarship recipients. Caucasian students receive more than three-quarters (76%) of all institutional merit-based scholarship and grant funding, even though they represent less than two-thirds (62%) of the student population. Caucasian students are 40% more likely to win private scholarships than minority students. [/QUOTE] [url]http://www.finaid.org/scholarships/20110902racescholarships.pdf[/url]
It's his money. I don't see why he can't be a prick with it if he wants. This is no less bigoted than other scholarships based on race or gender.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49798401]Heres a novel idea. Free education.[/QUOTE] lol because education grows on trees right?
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49798398]I think you've misunderstood whatever it is you read about marxism. Marx speculated that it is capitalism which leads to the existence of classes whos interests are intrinsically set against one another. IMO "marxist thinking" would follow "from each according to his ability, from each according to his need" ie if you need something to go to uni, you will get it (provided by marx's and others idealised post scarcity utopia).[/QUOTE] I see a lot of people scoff when people compare progressive/social justice stuff to marxism, but honestly it isn't that ridiculous It's the whole "power + privilege" thing. Instead of saying that the upper class have "power" over the lower class, it's whites having "power" over non whites. It's the same rhetoric but with identity instead of wealth. this is where that "social marxism" phrase comes from. It isn't marxism, it's marxist rhetoric with certain pieces replaced.
[QUOTE=Snowmew;49798055]I think that's the whole point of it. When I went through the undergrad scholarship process it was easy to exclude like 95% of scholarships because they're all aimed towards non-white, non-straight, non-male, etc. and that's where I was at the time even though I didn't have but a few dollars to my name. So, basically, I didn't get any scholarships. Which is alright, because scholarships are private money, so whatever. If people don't want to put up money for straight white males to pay for college, then that's their choice. But once the government steps in and says people [i]can't[/i] do that, that's fucked, man.[/QUOTE] When I was applying for scholarships there was basically one I could even apply for, the rest were for Mexican girls of below average intelligence who require tutoring and whose parents may or may not be here illegally. My favorite was the one geared towards minorities who needed financial aid to study abroad.. Like, are you fucking kidding me? Somewhere out there, there's some girl living the dream in Italy for the summer while I'm killing myself with work just so I can afford the base tuiton while living with my parents. [editline]23rd February 2016[/editline] But hey, at least I.. Uh.. I.. Wait, what do I get for being white again? [editline]23rd February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Darth Ninja;49798145]Why can't people just target their scholarships at poor people rather than minority groups?[/QUOTE] Because something something racism something something privilege something something institutionalized. It's all bullshit. Well meaning progressives turning a blind eye to poor white kids and continuing to demonize them while middle class black girls get carried to class on a throne. [editline]23rd February 2016[/editline] Oh right and men too, because apparently women are also inherently poor as well. [editline]23rd February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=person11;49798187]how did these scholarships even exist in the first place who could actually accept them and not feel awful about themselves (i know its hard not to take a free or subsidized education, but at the same time white people tend to have much more access to scholarships than anyone else)[/QUOTE] In what universe do white people have more scholarship opportunities than minorities? Really, tell me so I can get in on this, because so far being a white man is the worst part of my college experience.
Ironically the racial quotas people want to fight institutionalized racism are institutionalized racism.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49798054]Its an extreme double standard. Minority groups can "help their own" but whites cannot. [url]http://abcnews.go.com/US/confusion-white-high-schooler-returns-scholarship-intended-black/story?id=16544544[/url] A low income white guy earns a scholarship but has to give it up because of his skin tone. How is that not racism and how is that not spitting in the face of creating a "color-blind" society?[/QUOTE] Not that I disagree that access to scholarships should be fair, but: [QUOTE=The article]"Out of the 27 scholarships for which he applied, he won four, including the one he later gave up... ...When the Warrens returned home from the ceremony, they concluded that returning the money was the right thing to do. "[/QUOTE] meaning he wasn't forced to give it up, and wasn't deprived of a scholarship either.
[QUOTE=_Axel;49798231]I don't get the point of enforcing diversity other than to appeal to pseudo-progressive retards. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if a university is solely comprised of multiple clones of the same person as long as the selection was fair.[/QUOTE] How is diversity pseudo progressive?
[QUOTE=Killuah;49799055]How is diversity pseudo progressive?[/QUOTE] because this doesn't diversify for shit when this mentality wins and the cis white males are the minority, you won't have resolved jack, and this is the way it's going
[QUOTE=Wowza!;49798887]It's because the vast majority of scholarships are given to white students. [url]http://www.finaid.org/scholarships/20110902racescholarships.pdf[/url][/QUOTE] It's probably because of racism and not a variety of other factors right. I'm sure the people going over scholarship applications are just sitting at their desk and waiting with baited breath for a minority student to apply so they can righteously turn them down. Notice that white students get about 10% more than their "fair share" of [I]merit-based[/i] scholarships, not scholarships in general. Could it be possible white students study more for those scholarships?
[QUOTE=LoneWolf_Recon;49798464]There has to be some limitations of this as well as incentives for students so they don't slack of (Some sort of GPA or ACT threshold). As much as I want this as much as the next guy, the financials are possible when curtailed. Full ride, free 4 year college support for a new student as long as they keep above a certain threshold. In fact there's a number of already existing govt sponsered scholarships that have this requirement and stipulation, albeit they only pay for a quarter or a third of the full cost of a semester. (Atleast in Tennessee we have the [URL="https://www.tn.gov/collegepays/article/tennessee-hope-scholarship"]HOPE scholarship[/URL] requiring a minimum GPA of 3.0 for a max of four years of support.) Some of the infrastructure for 'free' education in the US exists in some form or another and varies from state to state, it just needs to be expanded. [editline]23rd February 2016[/editline] That's where I find the defending argument for diversity fall through, it sets a double standard of diversity vs racism. So in the end, it just seems like misguided attempts by "psuedo-progressive retards" or the Uni to win PC points.[/QUOTE] so are you saying there aren't any grade requirements to go to uni in the USA already? Wat the hell man. I am pretty sure people need GRADES & MONEY to go to uni there, whereas with free education all you need is the GRADES, so it eliminates the problem of smart poor people not getting the education to maximise their potential. And surely, if a student is doing badly during his studies, he is held back and/or is not able to continue? I don't like quotas for the same reason I don't like expensive, paid-for education. Young people who don't have the benefit of wealthy parents are left out.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;49798272]as someone who's a straight white male, it's so clear that you haven't actually looked for scholarships. Most scholarships are closed off to me and the ones that are open to me have almost no chance of me winning them because of the sheer number of people applying.[/QUOTE] i should probably clarify that I am including merit/incentive scholarships with need based ones if you include scholarships schools give to students to incentivize them to attend that school, white people end up more than making up for the lack of scholarships that target them I could not find a scholarship for me (i did look) when I applied to grad school since I am also a straight white male, but I did end up getting scholarship offers from schools anyway my point is that i did not need a specific white male scholarship in order to get my education subsidized because i was given an advantage due to my skin, gender, and upbringing, etc [editline]23rd February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Darth Ninja;49798196]Most scholarships I've come across during my schooling were aimed at girls or Aboriginal/Islander students. Although, there were also a lot for low income and mental health sufferers as well.[/QUOTE] true, and its pretty similar in the united states: people less likely to be able to afford schooling or who have other structural disadvantages borne out of discrimination are the ones who have scholarships made for them everything balances out if you look at the amount of money awarded to people rather than looking only at number of scholarships targeted towards different kinds of people
[QUOTE=Wowza!;49798887]It's because the vast majority of scholarships are given to white students. [url]http://www.finaid.org/scholarships/20110902racescholarships.pdf[/url][/QUOTE] You should re-read your data. Native and Island Americans get the most. Their own conclusion goes against their own data. [editline]23rd February 2016[/editline] Also the data points out that the amount of scholarship privately is equal to the population size in proportion.
The only kind of useful diversity is diversity of thought, not diversity of skin color or diversity of class or anything else. Just diversity of thought, and the modern university is less diverse than it's ever been when it comes to that important factor. It's more consistently left, more consistently progressive, etc. There's very little diversity of thought even though there's tons of diversity of skin color and a whole lot of other irrelevant things. Take the fact, for example, that 99% of top liberal arts campaign donations go to democrats. ([URL]http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/27/99-top-liberal-arts-professor-campaign-donations-g/[/URL]) Or that by their own description 72% of professors call themselves "liberal" and only 15% call themselves "conservative." At elite schools it's even more one sided with 82% self-identifying as "liberal." ([URL]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html[/URL]) The modern US university is one of the least diverse places in the entire nation when it comes to thought and ideas.
[QUOTE=person11;49799348]i should probably clarify that I am including merit/incentive scholarships with need based ones if you include scholarships schools give to students to incentivize them to attend that school, white people end up more than making up for the lack of scholarships that target them I could not find a scholarship for me (i did look) when I applied to grad school since I am also a straight white male, but I did end up getting scholarship offers from schools anyway my point is that i did not need a specific white male scholarship in order to get my education subsidized because i was given an advantage due to my skin, gender, and upbringing, etc [editline]23rd February 2016[/editline] true, and its pretty similar in the united states: people less likely to be able to afford schooling or who have other structural disadvantages borne out of discrimination are the ones who have scholarships made for them everything balances out if you look at the amount of money awarded to people rather than looking only at number of scholarships targeted towards different kinds of people[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] if you include scholarships schools give to students to incentivize them to attend that school, white people end up more than making up for the lack of scholarships that target them I could not find a scholarship for me (i did look) when I applied to grad school since I am also a straight white male, but I did end up getting scholarship offers from schools anyway [/QUOTE] Financial aid does not equal scholarships and not all white people get merit scholarships. I have a gpa of 3.29 and I got nothing
As I've learned searching for scholarships, being a straight christian Caucasian male with little military or police family history and in good health means I don't get [I]jack shit[/I] in scholarships. Change [I]any one of those variables[/I] and they rain them on you.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.